Genesis 18:1-26 (Shocking)

[Student]

Salaam,
Sir Joseph,

Abraham’s Three Visitors
1 And Yahweh appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he was sitting at the entrance of the tent in the heat of the day. 2 And he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing nearby him....8 And he took curds, and milk, and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them, and he stood by them under the tree while they ate.

Abraham Intercedes for Sodom
16 The men rose up from there and looked down toward the face of Sodom. Abraham was walking with them to send them on their way. 17 Yahweh said, “Should I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 since Abraham will become, yes, become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed in him? 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will command his children and his house after him to keep the way of Yahweh by doing what is right and just, so that Yahweh may bring on Abraham what he has spoken concerning him.” 20 And Yahweh said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin is so very grievous, 21 that I will go down now and see whether what they have done is as bad as the reports that have come to me. And if not, I will know.” 23 The two men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before Yahweh.
Source: http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Genesis/18

commentary:
 “go down.” Yahweh is with Abraham in the hill country of Judah and Sodom is to the east down by the Dead Sea, thousands of feet below them, so “go down” is literal here.
http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Genesis/chapter18/21

commentary:
“Abraham still stood before Yahweh.” There is good evidence the original text read that Yahweh stood before Abraham, but that wording generally indicated that Abraham was greater than Yahweh, so the scribes changed the wording to seem more acceptable, and that it was Abraham who stood before Yahweh.
http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Genesis/chapter18/22

Summary:

• Yahweh (God) was one of the three men
• Yahweh (God) partook in the food
• Yahweh (God) gets 2nd hand reports
• Yahweh (God) doesn't trust reports until after His own personal verification
• Original OT words modified to keep Yahweh's (God) status
• Yahweh (God) is neither Omnipresent nor All-knowing

Questions:

• Is this correct and reliable translation from the original Hebrew text? If so,
• How do you remove this blatant blasphemy from this chapter?
• How do Jews understand and interpret this chapter?
• For Trinitarians I believe this chapter gives them ample of fodder to support their theology, isn't it?
• Or is this a controversial chapter among the Jewish faith and academics on its existence?

Honestly, I was shocked and I'm still trying to regain and recollect myself from/after last night's reading. Hope you'll throw some light and perhaps altogether different one to make any sense out of this entire chapter.

[wanderer]

Like I stated before the Old Testament espouses a very human caricature of God. I don't understand what was so shocking to you.
Regards
wanderer

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Student,

As-salamu alaykum

With all due respect dear brother, I will not be able to dedicate much time at the moment to provide detail responses to Bible specific questions and follow-ups. There are a plethora of Quranic queries / areas of work that I still have to address / pursue and would therefore, not be able to dedicate time on other areas of my work, including the Ahadith corpus.

Also, as I trust that you will appreciate, this is not a Bible study forum per se, but a Quran forum, albeit I appreciate that Biblical related questions will arise worth exploring, particularly from a Quran reconciliation perspective.

However, learned brothers and sisters are free to discuss Biblical related topics (hence the dedicated board), as I know some already have, particularly brother Zack who I know has contributed much valued sentiments hitherto in this area.

Finally, please also kindly appreciate the value of seeking input from the learned of the People of the Book too. The internet is replete with sources of information, discourses and well established academia.

There is also more than an implied hint that is the approach God conferred on the Prophet himself. If he was in doubt, he was asked to reach out to the People of the Book regarding their scriptures to ratify. If this approach was good for the prophet, then it should certainly be good for believers. This one can argue, is indeed a Quranic perspective.

016.043
“And before you also the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if you do not know, ask of those who possess the Message”
 
021.007-8
“Before you, also, the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: If you do not know, ask of those who possess the Message. Nor did We give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they exempt from death”


Regards,
Joseph


RELATED ARTICLE:

[1] ASK THOSE THAT HAVE KNOWLEDGE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/ask%20one%20with%20knowledge%20FM3.htm

[Zack]

Hello Student (and Br. Joseph)

It is great you are asking these questions! This is one of the few forums in the world that has a section for the Bible and the Qur'an together, without a polemical objective of "One beating up the other." In response to your question, and Br. Josephs response....

- I would like to find and encourage a Hebrew and Greek scholar to watch this forum for questions like this, because of a key principle. The easiest way to get a warped interpretation on the Old Testament is to ask a Muslim what it means! In fact a Christian will often respond with their own theological glasses as well. The same goes for the Christians teaching Christians about Islam....likely in error.

- This opens up a whole topic of how Hebrew Bible describes spiritual beings in the Old Testament. It is quite broadly accepted that the often used phrases "The word of the Lord / the Angel of the Lord / the spirit of the Lord" all meant the same thing... Yahwehs revelation coming to a particular person, it may have a divinely inspired dream, vision. etc.

Or God may have spoken THROUGH a physical person, and this is portrayed as if God Himself is speaking.

My conclusion is:

a)   A lot of misinterpretation happens from not understanding how language is used in another culture. This is how “son of God” (or even man referred to as “god”) evolved from a Hebrew understanding to a Greek understanding of the Trinity. This is a part of the issue in reading such verses.
b)   We need to place the verse in context of “the bigger picture.” That is, the constraints of the Torah. The same God of the Qur’an is the God of the Torah. We need to be careful in interpreting individual verses contrary to these constraints. There is likely an explanation.
c)   The Qur’an is particularly strong on particular beliefs because of the historical context it was in… ie. Mediator figures through saints, images etc. etc. which was a “compromised Monotheism” by Christians in Arabia. The era of Ibrahim did not have this background, therefore there was not the paranoia with a particular use of language, such as “God Appearing”…. as everyone.

Anyway I will try to find a good link / resource for this,

Wasalam
Zack

[Student]

Walekas Salaam,
Sir Joseph,

First let me thank you for taking time to address my queries - I really appreciate and feel lucky every time I get your direct response 

I've read all your wonderful articles some twice and developed desire to see previous scriptures and some FB shared wisdom posts like https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/396647927139007?stream_ref=10 and https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/300599863410481 plunged me for once into OT and instantly I realized there's reconciliation to be had from your arguments and conclusions on some of the articles/topics as I understood prior to first hand OT exposure, for example

http://quransmessage.com/articles/people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm

http://quransmessage.com/articles/circumcision%20FM3.htm

http://quransmessage.com/articles/timeandspace%20FM3.htm

and as you said

There are a plethora of Quranic queries / areas of work that I still have to address / pursue

Although raised in "The Bible" section my questions all have implications and hooks going back to the Quran discussion.

I would love to see your response and I'm not ignoring 16:43, 21:7 call, rather I think I'm in full compliance as I see you as perfectly placed Biblical and Quran scholar to address and solve my problem vis-a-vis all the Divine writs and not so other Biblical scholars for the help for the reconciliation is from your articles and thanks to your amazing work I see Quran holistically so in addition to 16:43, 21:7 I'm cognizant of 62:5, 3:71, 2:109 among very many out of abundance of caution I'm not shopping outside QM 

In the end, I can only pray and implore God to bless me with your time and attention if He so wills.

[wanderer]

Hi Student-
I don't think Joseph has the time to satisfactorily answer all your questions right now. As much as we would all love his perspectives on everything, I think continuing to prod him for it is a little rude.
Regards
wanderer

[Student]

Praying=Prodding? I thought it otherwise and I apologize if it came across and sounded to readers like you felt 

[wanderer]

I'm sorry, it just felt as if you were 'begging' him to answer your question. As I have been blocked from this forum, for doing something similar, I just wanted to let you know. Again I apologize if I caused any offense.
Regards
wanderer