Two Female Witness

[Amira]

Salam everyone There many possible explanations for the 2 female witnesses rule in financial transactions. Most of them say that during the 7th century, women were generally excluded from financial matters and may have gotten confused when giving testimony in court, or that they had no education, so they couldn't handle financial court cases.

However, I saw this earlier:

"Consider, for example, Qur’anic verse 2:282, which describes the mitigation of a financial dispute by requesting the presence of two male witnesses or otherwise one male and two female witnesses. From this verse, male scholarship concludes that a single man’s testimony is equal to that of two women’s, regardless of whether the dispute in question is the ratification of a contract between a loaner and a debtor as specified in the Qur’an.[3] The Qur’an makes no qualitative equivalence between a male witness and two female witnesses. Furthermore, Q2:282 itself can be read to designate only one of the women as a witness, and the other as a guarantor to “remind” her should she err or become intimidated in the male-dominated jurisdiction of financial transactions, but the second woman is read by male scholarship as a witness nonetheless, and not merely as a supporter, creating an opportunity to read women’s testimony as less accurate or less valuable. This is the popular reading despite the fact that the verse continues to caution, “Let no scribe be harmed, nor any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is grave disobedience [of God] in you” (Q2:282), which clarifies that the supporting woman’s purpose is to ensure that the female witness is not threatened by the domineering party breaching the contract, and not necessarily that of an official witness. In the context of the Qur’an, if the first woman “forgets” or “errs” it is in the face of potential harm. Additionally, it has been noted by Islamic feminists that the Arabic word for “she errs” or “she forgets” used in the Qur’an is tadilla from the word dalal, (as opposed to nisyan, which is literally forgetfulness); tadilla describes forgetfulness or error of a particular nature: forgetting the right way (of God) when confronted by an external interest, in this case a threat."

Source: https://thefatalfeminist.com/2015/10/28/reverence-the-wombs-that-bore-you-on-unearthing-a-female-legacy-transgressive-to-the-patriarchal-social-order/

*Disclaimer: The girl who wrote the above article holds a lot of...interesting...views, not all of which I agree with. However, many of her interpretations shed light on disputed verses.

[wanderer]

Hi Amira-
Some notes:
-On this particular matter, you are correct (not the writer), the second witness is only required as 'backup'. This is because when the Quran was revealed, women had little education, and therefore were liable to error in the matter of financial testimony. In the eyes of God, the testimony of a man and a woman are equal, this can be identified in Surah al-Nur and the case of zina.
- I would like to caution you against using any writing sourced from self proclaimed "Muslim feminists". These deviants only seek to overhaul and replace the Quran with their own Westernized, liberal mindsets, to correct "patriarchal  influences" or some similar nonsense. They claim that the Quran is "sexist" and that it's clear directives on things like inheritance must be "reformed" to make it approvable to them
-I firmly believe that the Quran views men and women as complete equals in the eyes of God, and bestows upon women numerous rights and privileges that would have been alien to them at the time. However, that does NOT mean that Islam is 'feminist'. Feminism is an ideology that is in direct opposition to the Quran, and any attempts to try to interpret Islam according to its whims should be opposed.
-As Quran centric Muslims, we should remain wary of any biases that come into play when individuals interpret the Quran, whether they be from the "traditionalist, orthodox" camp, or the "modern, liberal" camp.
Regards
wanderer

[ahmad]

Dear Wanderer,

When you say as "a backup", do you mean that at times only one women will suffice for testimony ?

[wanderer]

Yes, the text says "IF she errs, the other one can remind her" Therefore, if she does not err, the other woman does not need to testify. Brother Joseph talks about it here: http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=330
Regards
wanderer

[Amira]

Salam Wanderer. First of all, I never said I approve of modern feminism. I think it's pretty ridiculous. That's why I put a disclaimer on my first post. The girl who wrote the article is an almost extreme feminist, and while I like her, I don't agree with many things she writes. Also, you can't call every single feminist a deviant.

Secondly, I don't see what's wrong with the interpretation she put forward. You should judge her argument, not the fact that she is a feminist. The paragraph I posted is about a specific verse, not about traditional feminist tropes like unrestrained sexual liberation.

Thirdly, this is off topic, but I found a translation you might like. Take a look at the one by Yahya Emerick.

[Amira]

Edit: I do agree that we should be wary of biases that may arise when different groups put their spin on Quranic interpretation. And the idea that verses about things like inheritance need to be "reformed" is, as you stated, nonsense.
Edit #2: The translation I recommended does have one problem: It agrees with the 72 virgin legend. Other than that, I haven't found anything particularly concerning in it.

[wanderer]

Hi Amira
I did look at her interpretation. Its flimsy. I'm busy now, but later I'll talk about why, God willing. I don't think "all feminists are deviants" but I do belive that feminism, as an ideology, is fundamentally opposed to Islam. Feminism teaches that each woman has full control over her body, Islam teaches that human's bodies belong to God alone. Trust me though, if she had put forth a good argument, I would have acknowledged it. But she did not. I've never heard of this translation, by the way, can you share a link?
Regards
Wanderer

[wanderer]

Response to your second edit:
 

[Amira]

I agree that humans' bodies belong to God, and unlike what feminism normally teaches, nobody of either gender has the right to sell themselves that way.

Aside from that, here's the link:

https://www.amazon.com/Meaning-Holy-Quran-Todays-English/dp/1450549535

I don't have a pdf of the translation. The author does employ hadiths to explain the circumstances of revelation. However, the language makes sense and doesn't deviate from the verses' meaning. For instance 4:34 is translated correctly. And there is a mention of the infuriating 72-virgin thing, but it's not major.

I'll write more later. I also have work now, but I'm putting it off as usual.

[wanderer]

Thanks. I'll check it out later inshaallah.
P.S. A fellow procrastinator I see 
Regards
wanderer

[Wakas]

For additional information I recommend:
http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/two-female-witnesses-one-male.htm

[ahmad]

Although the verse states "so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her" This does not automatically mean that the requirement for two women for testimony is reduced to one if she does not err. Maybe it means whether or not she errs, two women are still required for testimony. In other words, maybe it means that two women should show up, if one errs then the other should remind her, but even then the testimony of two women is still required.

Is there a clear argument to deny this plausible interpretation ?

[wanderer]

If that is true what is the point of the text even mentioning a possible error on the woman's part? The text is clear: Two woman must be there, but only one is necessary (to testify) unless she errs. The interpretation you posit doesn't really fit the text.
Regards
wanderer

[ahmad]

Thank you for sharing your perspective. The issue needs more thought on my part 

[Amira]

Hi Wanderer, do you know what was wrong with her interpretation yet? I haven't found any issues and I noted that the link Wakas shared also includes the possibility of the woman being intimidated by the party breaching the contract.

I'd like to write more, but I'm temporarily incapacitated due to the sheer horror going on right now in Washington. This has nothing to do with the verse we're discussing, but everyone, JUST PRAY. Go and pray right now and keep at it the whole night long. Pray for the future of this world. I'm sorry for the panic, but this is a desperate situation, and the sad thing is, I'm entirely serious. I can't believe this is happening. I'm done.