Circumcision - Including a Discussion on Biblical and Quranic Laws

[Duster]

Shalom / peace all.  Lovely thread....

Sister Nura - just 1 question. Can you refer me to the verse where Quran says it replaces old LAWS with new ones please?? I think you mentioned it a few times?

[Hamzeh]

Peace brother Duster

Are you referring to 2:106?

[Nura]

Salam Brother Duster

It says that Allah does not replace a law but with a better one, as in,  when such a thing happens God replaces the law with a more pertaining one, addressing the new situation in a better way.

2:106
What We abrogate (of) a sign or [We] cause it to be forgotten, We bring better than it or similar (to) it. Do not you know that Allah over every thing (is) All-Powerful?

[good logic]

Peace brothers and sisters.
God does replace/substitute one "Ayat" with another. i.e one  scripture /revelation with another. For example,here :
16:101
When we substitute one Ayat( revelation) in place of another, and God is fully aware of what He reveals, they say, "You made this up!" Indeed, most of them do not know.
وَإِذا بَدَّلنا ءايَةً مَكانَ ءايَةٍ وَاللَّهُ أَعلَمُ بِما يُنَزِّلُ قالوا إِنَّما أَنتَ مُفتَرٍ بَل أَكثَرُهُم لا يَعلَمونَ
16:102
Say, "The Holy Spirit has brought it down from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to provide a beacon and good news for the Muslimeen."
قُل نَزَّلَهُ روحُ القُدُسِ مِن رَبِّكَ بِالحَقِّ لِيُثَبِّتَ الَّذينَ ءامَنوا وَهُدًى وَبُشرىٰ لِلمُسلِمينَ


Yes, GOD "knows what He reveals". He is consistent with His words .They confirm each other. He endorses His words only
On the other hand men s words have "Fabrications/ False doctrines/ Contradictions/Nonsense...etc" in them. GOD s words only contain truth 
i.e The words of the men who come across GOD s revelation and do not really believe GOD and do this:

16:105
The only ones who fabricate false doctrines are those who do not believe in God's revelations; they are the real liars.
إِنَّما يَفتَرِى الكَذِبَ الَّذينَ لا يُؤمِنونَ بِـٔايٰتِ اللَّهِ وَأُولٰئِكَ هُمُ الكٰذِبونَ

Throughout Qoran GOD is saying this new "revelation" contains the details of everything/confirms everything before it...etc. GOD expects all the believers( Jews/Christians/Muslims/...) to believe His words. i.e To believe Him.

16:104
Surely, those who do not believe in God's revelations, God does not guide them. They have incurred a painful retribution.
إِنَّ الَّذينَ لا يُؤمِنونَ بِـٔايٰتِ اللَّهِ لا يَهديهِمُ اللَّهُ وَلَهُم عَذابٌ أَليمٌ

Throughout my conversations with those who say they have given me verses that confirm "the bible", I found the verses given to me only confirming GOD s words from the bible. GOD has been consistent with this. For example:

32:23 And certainly We gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt encountering it (Arabic: liqaihi) and We made it a guide for the Children of Israel

Here GOD starts the verse with "We gave ..." No doubt whatsoever that it is "GOD Swords only".
I am not against the bible , I study the bible continuously as well as Qoran.
I am saying GOD only endorses/confirms...His words. He does not endorse men s words, wherever they may be.
 I have no doubt the bible contains both . I give it the utmost respect and GOD guides with it also
Also. I do not find "Circumcision in Qoran.
GOD bless.
Peace.

[Duster]

Shalom peace Nura / Hamzeh...


This is my concern.  No where does it say law.  Sign / verse yes but it also says about being forgotten.  How can laws be forgotten when they are written in previous books? They can be cancelled ...yes but forgotton... no? ...so I'm thinking there is no mention of law here and that is not what is meant here.....

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=106

also i think 'law' has a different word in Arabic?? Isn't it related to Shariah?

I know brother Joseph translated translated the verse as follows mentioning law. ...

Holy Quran: 005.048 (part)
"...To each among you have We prescribed a law (Arabic: Shir-atan) and an open way (Arabic: waminhajan). If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute”

[Nura]

Salam Brother Good logic

I was always of the opinion Bible contains both God's word and men's words. I never denied the existence of man-made changes in the Bible.

Salam Brother Duster

Here God is saying if He causes to be forgotten then He replaces with a better one. Yes it is possible to forget laws and rites if God wants that to happen. Everything positive or negative happens because God allows it to happen. We do not always understand the wisdom behind such things instantly, but sometimes we just have to have faith in God's plan.

The word shariah is not in the verse, but ayat is there, ayat mean signs. But the Quran does contain examples where God has changed some laws for the Children of Israel. God does change His laws whenever He wishes to, He changed food laws for people of the book. The point is God does confirm some of their previous laws and practices and also confirms differences in shariah in the Quran. Previous laws, rites not mentioned in the Quran are not confirmed. God is overlooking and pardoning those laws and practices not mentioned. If we take the stance that not everything is confirmed in the Quran, then a lot of disturbing narratives in the Bible would have to be also given credence. The stories, laws rites etc not confirmed are pardoned and overlooked. This conclusion is reached after I thought things over and from my reading of other posts where Brother Joseph made the point that the portions the Quran confirms from the Bible are clearly mentioned. Regarding other parts not confirmed or mentioned in Quran, we see the Quran clearly saying that it pardons and overlooks much from the previous books and regarding laws and rites, the Quran does say that it is lifting some of their burdens.

[Duster]

Thanks Nura .... So if Allah (swt) is not elaborating and is 'passing over' narratives ... then why should be be delving on it ? ... There is something called 'Quranic silence'..... Yes Allah (swt) does speak of certain food laws ...such as forbidding the Jews certain foods but that is their law.... no where is the Quran saying that this does not apply for Jews going forward ....

Sahih International: And to those who are Jews We prohibited every animal of uncloven hoof; and of the cattle and the sheep We prohibited to them their fat, except what adheres to their backs or the entrails or what is joined with bone. [By] that We repaid them for their injustice. And indeed, We are truthful. - Verse (6:146)

The Quran is no place 'replacing' rites or laws of the people of the Book. Otherwise the verse I quote above would have no meaning....>>

Holy Quran: 005.048 (part)
"...To each among you have We prescribed a law (Arabic: Shir-atan) and an open way (Arabic: waminhajan). If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute”

I think we need to separate rites, laws, stories etc...... The Quran is confirming that the scripture is revealed by the same GOD, is a continuation of message ....it is correcting certain errant beliefs.....but is not delving in each and every story - its passing over much! .. who are we then to probe???

We need to ask what is bothering us the most??? Is it the laws for the Jews or some of the stories of the Bible?

[Nura]

Salam Brother Duster

The Quranic silence part I dealt with when I said in one of my previous posts , that they were people of yore and we won't be asked about them. Brother I do not think that I am being able to make you understand my contention regarding this whole issue.

Brother, the differences in shariah is confirmed, I am not understanding why you are concluding that if the Quran is going to be followed there will be no difference in shariah! The Quran does confirm differences like differences in the way they prepare meat, keeping sabbath, different qiblah all these and more are mentioned and confirmed, so the conclusion that if Quran is followed by them, then there will be no difference in shariah is unfounded! Even if they follow the things confirmed in the Quran, they will still have a different shariah. Does having a different shariah mean everything has to be different? This is an unfounded assumption that every law or rite has to be different. Even for instance if only the qiblah is different, the shariah becomes different. We were never prescribed an eye for an eye, they were and the Quran confirms this. There are many differences talked about in the Quran. Plus, 'argument from silence' is a logical fallacy. Maybe the Quran is silent because it has already said that it is pardoning and overlooking information it did not confirm.  If, the Quran is not confirming, I am not saying that those things are untrue, I am saying those unconfirmed things can be both true and untrue, we simply do not know. So, in such a situation why not follow things that have been confirmed in the Quran? We can choose not to comment about the unconfirmed narratives, but when it comes to performing rites and following laws, we cannot take the risk of commiting something in the name of religion that may not be ordained. Always err on the side of caution.

The Question is what are the Children of Israel suppossed to do during these times of silence?  If the answer is these are pardoned and passed over, then inaction is what is the logical conclusion. They should not do anything during these times or at least not follow the Bible's instruction at these times simply because the Quran's silence cannot be used to discern between truth or falsehood. When the Quran is silent they should not do anything, which fundamentally equals to, they should follow what the Quran confirms and nothing else. Let's for a moment consider the consequenses of following and believing the Bible when the Quran is silent, great prophets become rule breakers, shirk committers and committers of incest, astagfirullah!


If only the parts confirmed by the Quran is followed by people of the book, then their shariah and our shariah does not become the same! There are documented differences in the Quran. Maybe all these little differences mentioned in the Quran, are the differences in shariah God is talking about when he talks about different shariahs and open ways. Let's wait for Brother Joseph's input

[Duster]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you are confusing the matter.

"So, in such a situation why not follow things that have been confirmed in the Quran?"

Please give me an example of something which is confirmed by the Quran that the Bible does not confirm or has a different view. Note that when you say 'follow' you are implying laws ... or a practice of some kind .....

In my head its simple - Jews for example follow their laws .... and when they come across the truth of the Quran ...and accept it .. they are expected to acknowledge that its a book of GOD. .... This does not mean they are expected to folow the Quran laws....

So please be clear and concise please .... What do you mean documented differences which will leave the Jew in a pickle ....

You keep asking for Joseph's input when we know how busy he is and how much he has already written on this subject yet we keep bothering him .... Please don't shut the conversation down on me or others ....I'm only trying to help !  But also trying to understand what you are trying to say>>>

[Nura]

Salam brother Duster,

I am not confusing the matter, after I shared my contentions, some brothers have also seen the problem that arises with taking the approach that the Quran does not confirm all the laws and rites.
Can you give me a verse where the Quran says to follow that which it does not confirm. Brother Joseph has clearly said that the Quran mentions everything that it confirms. I agree.

The Bible confirms stoning as atonement for adultery, the Quran asigns lashes and is silent on stoning. Are you of the opinion Children of Israel should stone?

Documented differences in shariah:
1) sabbath for jews confirmed in Quran
2) different Qiblah
3) different procedure to prepare meat for consumption confirmed. 7th century Jewish meat preparation laws are confirmed and given credence.
4)eye for an eye was prescribed for  Children of Israel. This is in the Bible and the Quran mentions this.

These are just a few examples of different laws confirmed in the Quran, mentioned in Quran.

I do not see why you are becoming offended, I did not overlook your or anyone else's contribution, even after all the interactions with me brother, if you conclude such a thing about me and my approach then I really do not have much to say anymore. I am choosing to wait for a response from brother Joseph, I am not badgering him. I am not the only one who is waiting for a response from him on this topic.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear sister Nura,

As-salamu alaykum

Please kindly see below my responses to your questions in blue italics. I trust that you will forgive me as this is a topic I will not be able to devote too much time with as it is something I have spoken about a number of times and have shared a plethora of writings.

However, in the small humble response I have shared, I trust that this answers at least some of your questions. 

-----------------------------

Salam Brother Joseph

After reading your response to this topic, some questions have popped up in my head and I cannot really reconcile them, hence I am seeking your help, other brothers and sisters are welcome to express their opinions as well.

Regarding the practice of circumcision, since the Quran makes no mention of this practice and in another thread you said that the Quran mentions the practices and rites that it confirms from previous books, will it be wrong to suggest that, if modern 'Children of Israel' decide not to partake in this practice, they will not be wrong? After all the Quran is not confirming this practice.

The Quran is not confirming this practice as a religious duty for believers. However, this does not mean that it intends to nullify any laws / commandments (Mitzvot – Argued as 613 in the main) of the Bible (particularly the Pentateuch).

For example, the marks in fish are to be observed to discern what is lawful or otherwise (Leviticus 11:9-12). This arguably means that shellfish including lobster, shrimp, mussels and other fish would be forbidden to those observant of Kosher laws. However, the Quran does not prescribe this restriction on those who are not of the Children of Israel, yet are believers (Quran 5:96). Some reasons for the extra restriction are intimated in verse 16:118.

As I mentioned in the article [1] below:

“In verse 16.118, one notes that the extra prohibitions still stand for those that call themselves Jews until they accept as a matter of complete choice the veracity of the final messenger and the final revelation to him. These (and other) burdens will then be lifted (7:157). Until then, their Mosaic laws still apply. Specific food restriction imposed for the People of the Book can be noted in verse 6:146.”

Thus it follows, that similarly all other laws / commandments (of which there are many) governing Jewish practices remain applicable to them until then.

The main point to observe I feel is that the Quran does not expect the righteous from the People of the Book who follow their laws / commandments in earnest to forgo them. If Islam as portrayed by the Quran is adopted, it is purely a choice.

Brother, does the Quran confirm and mention all the practices that God wants 'Children of Israel' to continue practicing till end of time ? If that is so, then no mention of circimcision can mean that God wants this practice to be stopped?

No, it is my humble view that the Quran has no intention to confirm and / or mention all of the practices that the Children of Israel should practice. Some are mentioned but this is not to be interpreted as an exhaustive list. As shown in the example above, there are extra dietary laws which the Children of Israel are expected to follow. This applies to any of the other commandments for the Jewish community.

I read in the Quran, I do not remember the verse number now, that God replaces his laws with better ones, (My comment – ‘Ayat’ has multiple nuances. This is not merely are reference to an instructive law / commandment) would you please explain this to me. Does this include differences in laws between the previous books and Quran? For example: The punishment for fornication is 100 lashes in the Quran, but there is mention of stoning in the Bible, but the Quran does not confirm the practice of stoning, so should 'Children of Israel' now also give 100 lashes as punishment? If not, and they should stone, then the Quran does not mention and confirm all their laws, and they have to follow those laws also that are not confirmed by mentioning in Quran?

As I have respectfully mentioned in the previous answer, the Children of Israel are not expected to forgo those laws. If there is a specific punishment explicit in the Bible for the Children of Israel for a particular sin, grave / or not, that would arguably still apply and would remain a matter for the observant Jewish community to address.

The ‘shariah’ for the believers who follow the Quran would be different. I understand that verse 5:48 has already been cited on this thread. I will share again:

005:048
"...To each among you have We prescribed a law (Arabic: Shir-atan) and an open way (Arabic: waminhajan). If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute”

The Quran does mention differences in shariah like sabbath and different Qiblah. I understand this mention in Quran as confirmation of these differences in law, but for example, the Quran does not confirm the prayer timings for 'Children of Israel', so should they pray five times like us but facing a different qiblah? Their Qiblah is confirmed but timing is not in the Quran. Then for fasting, the month of Ramadan is confirmed, their practice details are not mentioned or confirmed in Quran, so can we say that, they also have to fast the month of Ramadan with us now, since fasting is confirmed, but the details of their practice is not mentioned hence not confirmed in the Quran.

Again, the Jewish practices stay as they are. They still observe salah as they do. They still fast as they do. Although the Quran highlights some differences in religious practice, this is not intended to be an exhaustive list of all the laws of the Bible. The prayer for example was a well understood practice in situ even before the prophetic ministry in Arabia.

Basically I am asking, are the ' Children of Israel' only to follow the practices that are confirmed and mentioned in the Quran?

The simple answer to this is no in my humble opinion.

The Quran  confirms and mentions the differences from the Bible practices like sabbath, their way of preparing food, different qiblah etc. But should they follow the Quran for other things not confirmed and is different, like timing of salat, month of fasting, punishment for adultery etc. The things that are not confirmed by the Quran by mentioning them, what should Children of Israel do in such cases like fasting, praying and adultery?

In summary, the Children of Israel are expected to follow all their laws and fulfil their covenant to the best of their abilities. If they do not do this, they are deemed as ‘kuffar’ – disbelievers (5:44) and ‘zalim’ – wrong-doers (5:45).

They are not expected to convert. However, if they embrace the religion as given to believers in the Quran, then they do this out of choice.

I hope this helps, God willing.

Your brother in faith,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] FOOD PERMISSIBILITY AND PROHIBITIONS
http://quransmessage.com/articles/food%20restrictions%20FM3.htm

[Joseph Islam]

Dear All,

As-salamu alaykum

One point to note is that when the Quran speaks of bringing forth another sign / law / commandment for a different community in a different scripture, this does not mean that the previous law for a previous community was a bad law or ceases to apply for that previous community. God knows best why He reveals certain laws for certain communities and in His wisdom why He has allowed for these differences. It is quite possible that certain communities needed to / need to be addressed in a certain manner.

I find this can oft result in some confusion for some as to how to interpret certain verses such as 2:106. When the above premise / context is allowed, I feel much of the interpretative tension disappears.

On a parallel note, it does appear quite likely that when these changes / differences were revealed, those of the previous Books may have taken exception to this and questioned the veracity of the revelation. It is in that context, some of the oft repeated verses which are at times wrongly interpreted as a whole dispensation of the previous law / commandments from the previous scriptures should be understood.

When the above premise / context is allowed, I feel much of the interpretative tension disappears.

002.106
"Any verse / message (Arabic: ayatin) which, We cancel / abrogate or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Do you not know that God has the power to will anything?"

I hope this helps, God willing.

Regards,
Joseph

[Nura]

Salam Brother Joseph

Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to answer my questions. I was quite upset because I was not being able to reconcile the verses in my head for some reason, thank you very much. I overlooked the part where all the Mosaic laws have to be followed by Jews who were not convinced of the veracity of the Quran. Makes you wonder, how overlooking one part of the puzzle can make you question everything.