Assalam alikum Joseph Islam - Thamud and the Nabateans

[sharon]

Assalam alikum brother I have been going through your articles and I keep noticing when you talk about thamud you always but the nabateans next to them and I was just wondering why because thamud and the nabateans are two different groups or are you saying that 1. You think the nabateans are thamud if yes then the problem is thamud is meant to come way before abraham or 2. You think the quran is inspired so got it wrong and 3. Do you think the quran is saying those buildings in mada'in al saleh are built by thamud and if yes then that is wrong so how do we explain that jazzakkallah

[sharon]

Because of course the quran is the word of god not inspired jazzakkallah

[sharon]

Because like I  said and sorry to keep bothering you you make it sound like thamud built those buildings in mada'in al saleh and petra but they were both built by the nabtions and the nabateans were not thamud they came way after thamud like 500 bc and thamud came way before abraham like 5000 bc or more but the quran does make it sound like they built them so how to we explain this jazzakkallah sorry to bother you

[sharon]

Or do u you think these story's are symbolic but that would be wrong and cause a lot of problems I'm not being funny just very confused by this and also confused by your articles on this jazzakkallah

[sharon]

Assalam alikum sorry to bothwr i just need a clarifaction on these verses then ill leave it these parts of the verses 89:9 (who carved out the rocks in the valley) and 89:7 (iram owners of the lofty pillars) are these part of the verses speaking in the present tense or past tense just these verses if you were to only read theses verse 89:6-9 (have you not seen how your Lord debt with the tribe of ad of iram owners of the lofty pillars whitch were not created in the land like any other nation and thamud who carved out the rocks in the valley) are these part of the verses in past tense or present and when it says rocks does it mean mountions or just normal bolders

[sharon]

Assalam alikum I was just wondering where is wadi al’qura in saudia Arabia is wadi al’qura al Ula or somewhere else

[Sardar Miyan]

Wadi al-Qura is a location north of Medina in Saudi Arabia.[1] Several military expeditions took place there during the time of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad. These include the Expedition of Zaid ibn Haritha (Wadi al-Qura), where Muhammad sent Zayd ibn Haritha to survey the area and to monitor the movements of the enemies of Muhammad,[2] as well as the Second Expedition of Wadi al-Qura which Muhammad ordered to raid the inhabitants of Wadi al-Qura for revenge, because a number of Muslims were killed when they tried to raid the inhabitants previously, but failed.[3] During the end of Muhammad's era the Third Expedition of Wadi al Qura was ordered, with the purpose of attacking the Jews of Wadi al-Qura to conquer their land[4]

Recent discoveries of Geonic responsa have shown that there was a Jewish presence in Wadi al-Qura as late as the 11th century CE, and that they maintained correspondence with Rabbi Sherira Gaon and Rabbi Hai Gaon.[5]

[sharon]

Thanks jazzakkallah but where is it on the map because I can't find it on the map

[sharon]

Also I have a another question example if person A builds a house but he dies and his house is empty for 40 years and is old meaning paint decayed then person B comes along lives in it but does it up by putting new paint and plaster on it to make it look new but the house bricks are still the same as person A put there could you still call the house as persons A house who first built it and lived in it bur person B just did it up

[sharon]

Assalam alikum joseph islam I was just wondering do you believe that thamud were the nabateans and if yes how can they when thamud were meant to come before moses and do you think thamud built those tombs in mada'in al saleh and if yes how because again thamud came before moses and those tombs date 100 bc and thamud built houses not tombs and they look like brand new not that old so how do we explain this jazzakkallah sorry to bother you because these can't have anything to do with thamud because thamud had to come at least 2000 thousand bc before moses and abraham and if we say they the nabateans built over them well that still wouldn't make them thamud and like I said the verse 89:9 and 40:21 but mainly 89:9 make it sound like these tombs are thamud but they are not so how do we explain this because it makes it sound like a historical mistake in the quran but I know the quran can't be wrong so how do we explain this jazzakkallah sorry for bothering and sorry for reapting myself alot

[sharon]

And verse 27:52 but mainly 89:9 or is 89:9 just a title not what they see saw etc the Arabs but like I said it is mainly 89:9 but the rest of the paragraph needs answers to please jazzakkallah

[sharon]

Assalam alikum thanks so does this (ʿAbdullah ibn ʿUmar and Ibn Kathir who report that people called the region of Thamud Al-Hijr, while they called the province of Mada'in Saleh as Ardh Thamud (Land of Thamud) and Bayt Thamud(house of Thamud).[16][17] The conclusion that can be taken from the evidences above is that the term ‘Thamud’ was not applied to the groups that lived in Mada'in Saleh, such asLihyanites and Nabataeans,[18][19] but rather to the region itself.) Does this  Mean that al hijr is a name given to thamud not mada'in al saleh  and the name thamud was given to mada'in al saleh not that al hijr was given to mada'in al saleh

[sharon]

Assalam alikum does this verse 89:6 mean you Arabs saw the buildings or heard of the story we have all ready told you about ad and thamud and pharoh is it saying the story you have heard or the buildings you have seen 


 

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Sharon,

Wa alaikum assalam

This is indeed a fascinating topic and having visited sites at Petra, Little Petra and Mada’in Saleh, one thing remains absolutely clear in my mind; these sites are nothing but awe-inspiring (in construction and magnitude), even before any attempt is made to piece / understand its history.


There is no doubt that at least a couple of points are clear from the Quran.

• The people of Thamud created some sort of buildings / structures carved into the rocks with high skill / precision. (7:74; 15:82; 26:149)
• The dwellings of the people of Thamud (and their fate) was visible to the primary audience of the Quran (29:38; 27:52). They knew of the locations. Whether these sites / locations became obscured later for any particular reason is another matter.
• The people of Thamud entered a time of history before Prophet Moses. (40:31)

Regardless of what may be read in some writings, travel brochures or uttered by certain tour guides, one matter should remain unquestionable to any acute academic engaged with work in this area and that is that comprehensive Nabatean history still remains somewhat of a mystery.

Given the limited excavations at all relevant sites, what we know of the Nabateans is arguably very sketchy and relies very much on a dearth of information / inscriptions and from a select few sources. The Nabateans strangely do not appear to have left any tomes of literature / information indicative of a once powerful, prosperous nation engaged in great trade. Therefore, forming opinions / assumptions from sparse inscriptions and writings of limited sources from antiquity does not arguably, tantamount to irrefutable evidence. Some may even argue that our view of the Nabateans and their history is formed on much conjecture and we should exercise at least some caution in forming views about them.

It appears from the relative dearth of information we have that they may have settled and occupied, for a relatively short period of time, in the areas known today as Petra (aka. Rose city), little Petra (Jordon). This belief is also extended to seemingly outpost areas such as Hegira / Al Hijr (Mada'in Saleh, Saudi Arabia). In all, they may well have even traded with some success and prosperity. Whether the tribes occupying Mada’in Saleh were the same as those at Petra is yet still, another matter.

However, whether the Nabateans were the original builders of such awe inspiring, highly-skilled constructed buildings / structures of different types across the entire sites (excavated and unexcavated) is quite another matter, certainly from my humble perspective.
 
The notion that simple nomadic, primitive tent dwellers who traditionally would have arguably roamed the desert somehow over a period of a few hundred years acquired so much sophistry and skill to build the sites at Petra and Hegira (Al-Hijr - Mada’in Saleh) with a sprawling metropolis, waterways / water systems, enormous buildings / structures within a few centuries and see the peak of their power and then leave hardly any literature or comprehensive vestiges of knowledge and vanish into obscurity or become nomadic Arabs again could be to some, a very difficult concept to accept / digest.

However, it does appear from the limited excavations that have been performed and from what is visible, that there are other structures apart from what are considered tombs. It is also accepted that earlier people / tribes have also occupied the sites. Therefore, it could be possible that there are earlier structures yet to be excavated still indicative of those communities.

It is also noteworthy that we cannot be entirely sure what particular  buildings / structures at what particular site (visible or obscured today) the Quran referred to when it addressed the primary audience of the Quran. Certainly, it was a site / location known to them.

One thing for sure is that the Quran does make it absolutely clear that some of the original sites constructed by nations that were destroyed, were occupied later by certain people, albeit for a relatively short period of time.

028.058
"And how many a community have We destroyed that exulted in its means of livelihood! And these are their dwellings which have not been inhabited after them except a little (qalilan). And indeed We, We, were / are the inheritors."

Whether this is a reference to tent dwelling communities that later occupied these sites such as the Nabateans and other similar tribes, is a matter of opinion / for interpretation.

Finally, a short analogy may be apt here. Just because ones resides in a particular house / building, doesn't mean they have built / constructed it.  There could have been many generations that could have inhabited it before the present occupiers. Indeed, the style of a building will indicate period. But arguably, this interpretive approach becomes limited if there is no direct architectural comparison or a limited one. Furthermore, just because a particular resident may leave personalised markings within the house confirming custodianship at a particular period of time, this does not confirm their construction of the building.

It remains noteworthy that the construction of the tombs is argued primarily on the basis of when the inscriptions were made.

As the UNESCO document states:

• "The most important remains of this period consist of four main necropoles. They include 111 monumental tombs, of which 94 have decorated facades of varying dimensions. Amongst them, around thirty include inscriptions in the Nabataean language, which enables the dating of their construction." [3]

It can be argued that just because a certain people left inscriptions at a particular site does not mean that they constructed / built it.
In the end, only God knows best.

I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph


RELATED ARTICLES:

[1] MADA'IN SALEH - THE QURANIC ZIYARAH (VISIT) OF PETRA'S SISTER SITE
http://quransmessage.com/travelogues/ziyarah%20FM3.htm
[2] PETRA, JORDON
http://quransmessage.com/travelogues/petra-jordan%20FM3.htm
[3] Archaeological site of Al-Hijr (Saudi Arabia) No 1293, 2. THE PROPERTY, page 10 [online] http://whc.unesco.org/document/152272 [accessed] 7th February 2018

[Deliverance]

Salam Joseph ,

Thank you for the article ,maybe the nabateans are not the original constructer of the City Petra read this http://www.bibleistrue.com/qna/pqna33.htm

The Bible is talking about a City called "Sela" and it could be Petra and the People who build this City where the Edomites which is in the timeline of Moses.

Edomit and Thamud is something closer semantically than Nabatean .