Assalam alikum Joseph Islam - Thamud and the Nabateans

Started by sharon, January 16, 2017, 10:40:46 AM

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sharon

Sorry forget what I put before ill put my questions like this sorry
1. Is this bit of the verse past tense or present (aaltheana jabbu al sakrah bilwadi)
2. Does sakahra here mean mountions or just normal bolders
3. Why is there a AL before the sakahra because if the verse is past tense the AL here makes it sound in the preasent tense
4. Is it possible for the verse (jabbu bi) to mean like brother deliverance said bring up the rocks from the valley and if yes why do no translations use it

Duster

Sharon - just re read the posts on the last page 2 that you have written......do you the number of questions you are asking?????? It seems ridiculous to me.......you look totally confused......why don't you slow your pace down....do some research first and then ask your questions.....also i think you need to break your questions down from your posts on the start page 2.....it really seems like a rant......also is English not your first language????

Duster

Also Sharon .....why do you keep saying tombs??? As brother Joseph said there are dwellings on this site not just tombs......also they say only 2 - 15% have been excavated.  So there may be more dwellings yet to be discovered or visible at the prophets time....why are you fixated with saying that there are only tombs there? Also couldn't the builders be Thamud people and then later converted or used by Nabateans as tombs?

ilker

assalamu alaikum

sharon I think you should do a comprehensive search among all the ayat that have "AL" article and used in the past tense, thus you may get a grasp on this subject. Just a suggestion :)

Joseph Islam

Dear Sharon,

As-salamu alaykum

I will attempt to answer your questions as I have already done in my earlier post. However, please can I kindly ask you to remain patient and structure your questions clearly and succinctly. I am finding a lot of emotion in your questions which appear to be intertwined with opinions. This makes it very difficult for me to answer.

With any topic such as this, I believe the approach needs to be careful and methodical. Please kindly see my responses to what I understand are / were your questions.


[1] If the understanding of the 'Nabatean' people is of a community that existed in the few centuries around the 1st century AD, then this is not a reference to the people of Thamud that according to the Quran, lived before the time of Prophet Moses. It may well be that the Nabatean people originated from isolated generations / tribes from the people of Thamud (who were mainly destroyed with exceptions who were saved 27:53, 41:17-18; 11:66), but they will not be the specific people that the Quran refers to that incurred God's wrath.

[2] The Thamud carved many types of buildings structures (bayt) including dwellings (maskan). Please note that the sites at Petra and Mada'in Saleh do not simply have tombs. There are other types of structures as well including influences from earlier / other communities.
The Quran makes use of different terms to refer to what the people of Thamud created. 'Bayt' can refer to all sorts of buildings including tents, uninhabited houses, places of worships, ruins, privies and even possibly to tombs / graves (71:28).

[3] It is quite possible that the specific structures / dwellings that the Quran refers to belonging to the Thamud and were visible at the time of the Quran's revelation have now become obscured due to the passage of time. This can only be better confirmed if the entire site at Petra and Mada'in Saleh is excavated. Until then, we can only comment on the limited structures we can see. It appears that the theories that are widely accepted are built on current excavations and their particular focus on tombs.

[4] The reference in verse 89:9 in my humble view is a reference to the the people of Thamud. From the phrasing of the verse, it appears these sites / locations of the rock were known at the time of the Prophet / Quran's revelation. This is supported by verses 27:52 and 29:38.

[5] Verse 15:80 and the reference to 'Al Hijr' (The Rock) is once again, most likely another description to the numerous references in the Quran to the people of Thamud. It is within the style of the Quran to mention a certain well established reference in a unique way. For example, Prophet Yunus is referred to in an isolated manner in verse 21:87 as 'Dhul'n-Nun' (The one of the fish).

[6] The Quran makes it clear that the buildings / structures of destroyed communities have been occupied by subsequent generations for a short period of time (28:58). Even the Arabs were known to occupy buildings of destroyed communities (14:45) or at least have access to them (20:128). This appears to be a legacy of the Arabs. It is quite possible that the Nabateans also dwelt / made use of buildings that were once created by older communities.

[7] Finally, as a believer, and as someone who has come to conclude that the Quran is the word of God, I do not accept that the Quran contains any historic inaccuracies. If I may respectfully say so, I find this question of yours incredulous when I trust that you know my view on the Quran and my beliefs.


I hope this helps, God willing.

Regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell


Duster

Thanks brother Joseph....also i found a video that also questions the conventional understanding......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEGYvLo4N-Y

Also Sharon - please let me know what you think of the video......

sharon

Assalam alikum thanks for the video duster I've watched it and found it very good this is my views on the video and I have 3 questions relating to this at the end

so here are my views.

1. It was good thought
2. It is possible that maybe thamud did the caves the little ones
3. But thamud could not off done the big petra building because it looks younger then the pyramids in Egypt
4. Even thow thamud could of done the caves thamud could not have done the ones in Turkey and the other places
5. But there is more we don't know so it has to be more searched in
6. Again thamud could not off done the buildings in mada'in saleh because again it looks younger than the pyramids in Egypt
7. It has signs of a earthquake but I don't know if there were several in different times but the earthqauke in 300 ad could not off been the one to destroy the thamud
8. I still think there somewhere else like yemon maybe near where ad was destroyed because there is a town called thamud
9.and like I said thamud has to be close to the timeline of noah because they are called the first nations in the quran


So here is my 3 qustions
1. Was the petra buildings covered by rocks and dirt then found or was it always showing
2. In the quran it says in 27:52 they are ruins utter ruins ruined so does 89:9 when it says carved out is it talking about the outside or the inside because if it is the inside then maybe in the prophets time the dwellings were just cave like because the outside might of withered away but if it is the outside then how does it fit with 27:52 when it says there dwellings are ruined  because how can the out side show carvings but be ruined fallen at the sametime
3. Could you call petra al hijr or anyplace with a rocky area al hijr


But like I said it was a very good thought provoking video thanks

sharon

So like the women said the petra buildings must of been done by someone else than the nabateans and I agree but I still don't think it was thamud because like I said it looks younger than the pyramids

sharon

So does 89:9 mean there dwellings have to be like new or can 89:9 mean the there dwellings can just be cave like with the front gone etc can 89:9 mean that or does 89:9 mean the dwellings have to be like new with the front still there

Deliverance

Salam Sharon,

To your question 3

Actually Petra is the greek Name for Rock and as a i linked before Petra is maybe the biblical town Selah and is the hebrew(?) word for Rock also ,so the al-hijr in 89:9 it can be Petra.

And your observing of the buliding to be younger of age ,i have a Suggestion.In the desert thinks dont get attcked by the Elements as in other plaaces where it is raining .But you are right in the comparison with the pyramids they look like new but you have forgotten that Petra is hidden in a Canyon ,where it is save from wind ,rain and that i suppose to be the reason why it Looks new .

i tend to the Edomites who have build Petra because in ancient egyptians source they where called Adamus ,and it sounds a bit like Thamud

sharon

 I never heard off them before I just looked them up they could but the trouble is they were destroyed fully gone by 125bc it is like when some people thought they found the old town off AD in oman but like people said it could not off been ad from the quran because there were destroyed 300 ad but thanks

But is it possible that in the prophets time that all what was left off thamud dwellings were there inside not outside so all there was left was carved out big caves because the front had withered away completely and could 89:9 mean that by carved the mountions talking about the inside like example of this link can 89:9 mean this because if yes then we know cave like structures can live on for thousands of years so is this possible that this is what 89:9 means and that the outside was destroyed gone jazzakkallah
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=thamud+cave&prmd=imvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjyv6Kws4bSAhULI8AKHfsvDsEQ_AUIBygB&biw=360&bih=615#imgrc=JWWBzg6CXWv2QM:

Deliverance

salam ,

When Petra is originally build by the thamuds they must have been in contact or lived in a highsociety .They must have been get this skills to build the structures out of the rocks from the North or from the West (egypt) and i hardly believe that People from inner arabia had that Knowledge .

sharon

Thanks jazzakkallah but like I said is it possible for the verse 89:9 to mean what I said above carving the inside like caves just to mean that in the prophets time jazzakkallah

Deliverance

My understanding of vers 89;9 is that they transported blocks of Stone into the valley and build something with it .I came to this understanding beacause in 7:71 (0r so) it is written that they build house and Palaces in al-Jabal which means mountain .