Assalam alikum Joseph Islam - Thamud and the Nabateans

[sharon]

Ok thanks jazzakkallah but I thought jabbu just meant carving not bringing or brought something but thanks thow

[sharon]

Also according to you as well 89:9 is past tense not present thanks jazzakkallah

[Duster]

Also according to you as well 89:9 is past tense not present thanks jazzakkallah

Why do you keep repeating this ?? WHY does it matter ??

[sharon]

Sorry I anciently pasted that I meant to paste that translations never seem to put down what you mean the jabbu means bring brought the rocks from the valley how does jabbu mean what you mean jazzakkallah  but like I said can the verse mean what I thought it meant with the pitchure link above as well

[Duster]

Sorry I anciently pasted that I meant to paste that translations never seem to put down what you mean the jabbu means bring brought the rocks from the valley how does jabbu mean what you mean jazzakkallah  but like I said can the verse mean what I thought it meant with the pitchure link above as well

What ARE you taking about Sharon? Sorry I don't understand you.  You are not making any sense to me. Are you using google translate ?...

[wanderer]

Duster: I totally understand your frustration, but its possible that English is not Sharon's first language, in which case it is not within Islam to criticize her for her grammar.
Sharon: I'm sorry but your posts over the last few weeks have been highly confusing. I suggest scrapping the ten or so threads you've created, and just posting a numbered list of questions for forum members to answer more easily.

[sharon]

1. Can 89:9 mean this or not  https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=thamud+cave&prmd=imvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjyv6Kws4bSAhULI8AKHfsvDsEQ_AUIBygB&biw=360&bih=615#imgrc=JWWBzg6CXWv2QM
2. Can 89:9 just mean the inside of the houses not the outside showing  in the prophets time
* Because in the prophets time the inside could off been what's left if of the house
* the outside of the house could of been destroyed gone by the prophets time
3. How can 89:9 mean what you mean because no translations have your meaning of verse 89:9
* there is no talk of bringing stones from the valley only carving mountions

I'm from Spain so first language Spanish sorry

[Joseph Islam]

1. Can 89:9 mean this or not  https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=thamud+cave&prmd=imvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjyv6Kws4bSAhULI8AKHfsvDsEQ_AUIBygB&biw=360&bih=615#imgrc=JWWBzg6CXWv2QM
2. Can 89:9 just mean the inside of the houses not the outside showing  in the prophets time
* Because in the prophets time the inside could off been what's left if of the house
* the outside of the house could of been destroyed gone by the prophets time
3. How can 89:9 mean what you mean because no translations have your meaning of verse 89:9
* there is no talk of bringing stones from the valley only carving mountions

Dear Sharon,

As-salamu alaykum

[1] Yes it 'possibly' can.
[2] Yes it 'possibly' can.
[3] The verb 'jaba' means to cleave, to hollow. Here is a fuller discussion of the meaning of the word:

• 1 جَابَهُ جاب جابه جابة , (S, * TA,) aor. يَجُوبُ, (S, TA,) inf. n. جَوْبٌ (S, A, K, TA) and تَجْوَابٌ, (Har p. 336,) He made a hole in it; or rent, or tore, it; (S, A, K, TA;) as also ↓ اجتابهُ : (K, * TA:) he made a hole through, or in, or into, it; perforated, pierced, or bored, it: (TA:) he cut it: (S, A, K, TA:) he cut it in like manner as one cuts a جَيْب [or an opening at the neck and bosom of a shirt &c.]: (L, TA:) he made, or cut, a hole in the middle of it; cut a piece out of the middle of it; hollowed it out; or excavated it. (TA.) You say, جاب الصَّخْرَةَ He made a hole in the rock; (A, TA;) perforated, pierced, or bored, it. (TA.) Hence, in the Kur [89:8], وَثَمُودَ الَّذِينَ جَابُوا الصَّخْرَ بِالوَادِ (Fr, S, TA) And Thamood, who made holes in the rocks, (Fr, TA,) or cut the rocks, (Bd, Jel,) [or hollowed them out,] and made them dwellings, in the valley, (Fr, Bd, Jel, TA,) [1]

I sincerely trust now that all responses shared on this thread have finally answered your questions, God willing. 

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] LANE. E.W, Edward Lanes Lexicon, Williams and Norgate 1863; Librairie du Liban Beirut-Lebanon 1968, Volume 2, Page 479

[Deliverance]

Salam Joseph ,

With sincere respect jaba can also mean to bring .i've looked it up in Francis Steingass dictionary and i found  on page 45 the word Bring is translated with jaba/yujibu

here is an online Version of the Book https://archive.org/stream/englisharabicdi01steigoog#page/n58/mode/2up

and because it is used with the Präposition bi i think the proper Translation of jabu al-sahra bi-l wad is they brought blocks(?)of Stones in the valley .If they cut out the rocks in the valley ,i would use the Präposition Fi.
jabu al-sahra fi-l-wad .

wa salam

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Deliverance,

Wa alaikum assalam

I have presented my humble evidence and sources to the readership and of course, they can discern which is a more cogent argument. With respect, I am not going to comprehensively argue my use of classical sources which have been cited by the lexicon I have used (Edward Lanes) which cites numerous ancient / classical sources such as the Taj el-Aroos (TA), The Sihah (S), The Asas (Ez-Zamakhsheree) (A), The Kamoos (K), El Farra (Fr) and Lisan Al Arab (L) to make the case with regards the meaning of this word.

I respectfully do not see (despite the preface) what classical source your lexicographer (Francis Joseph Steingas 1882) has used for this particular rendition which I find strange / peculiar. The root 'JWB' is also well known to mean answer / respond.

The context is clear in the Quran. Thamud used to carve, hew, cut and shape (nahata) buildings in the mountains (7:74; 15:82; 26:149). This word (nahata) is also used to describe the carving / shaping of the idols during prophet Abraham's time (37:95). So we knew they carved buildings / structures. The word 'jaba' in the context of verse 89:9 is well appreciated by classical lexicographers in meaning.

In my humble opinion, the preposition 'bi' attached to the noun 'waad' makes no difference to the meaning of the verb 'jaba' in this context. I am not sure what point you are trying to make by citing this grammatical device. 'bil-waad' can simply mean beside / in / next to the valley (wadi). This has nothing to do with the meaning of carving rocks (jabu'l sakhra). Either way, with respect, I trust that you will accept my prerogative not to indulge myself into protracted / lengthy discussions around grammar as I used to in the past.

The reason is that I have written extensively at times discussing grammatical devices but have also often found them futile and given my time restraints now, something I simply cannot entertain. I believe the sense of the Arabic is clear to anyone that speaks / understand Arabic that Thamud 'carved out / hewed' rocks in or at the valley. This should not only be clear from verse 89:9, but also from the wider context of the Quran where the people of Thamud are discussed.

Please kindly accept my response as my last to you on this matter and I trust readers will make their own respected opinions on which opinion they find most cogent.

For those readers interested, please also kindly see a selection of well respected lexicons at [1] below where the verb 'jaba’ is discussed in much detail. The meaning hopefully will be clear.

With utmost respect and regards to all.
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] ARABIC LANGUAGE RESOURCES
http://ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=184,ll=519,ls=5,la=716,sg=271,ha=118,br=205,pr=38,vi=107,mgf=186,mr=137,mn=220,aan=117,kz=358,uqq=59,ulq=513,uqa=85,uqw=297,umr=223,ums=173,umj=137,bdw=197,amr=132,asb=152,auh=352,dhq=109,mht=139,msb=51,tla=39,amj=129,ens=1,mis=269

[QM Moderators Team]

This thread is now closed.

Sharon - please do not labour your questions which are bordering unacceptable and unnecessary. Your last post has been removed and your posts will now be moderated.

Members, including brother Joseph have taken out much time to answer your questions.

.