History

[yahya]

Assalam alikum I have a few questions
1. Verse 25:20 says every prophet walked the markets but markets did not exist before 5 thousand bc and adam abd noah came way before that
2. The same with 5:27 talks about sacrificing animals Adams sons and it says the story is similar to the bible but animals were not domesticated before 8 thousand bc and again adam came way way before that
3. And verse 54:13 says noah made his ark out of nails but metal nails didn't exsist before 8 thousand bc

So how do we explain these 3 verses because domestication and markets and nails were not in adam and noah day if they came before 10 thousand bc because if we all came from Adam adam had to come like 70 thousand bc at least

[QM Moderators Team]

Dear Yayha,

As you know, we emailed you recently informing you that your account was re-enabled on the basis of the following understanding. We hope you will adhere to these kindly going forward.

The above post was fine.

Thanks.

----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Yahya,

Your access to the QM forum has been re-enabled. Can we please request the following if you would like to continue using the forum. This is what we expect from all members.

1.   Adherence of the forum policies http://quransmessage.com/forum/policy
2.   That you do not create multiple threads for the same questions
3.   That you try to search the forum first before asking a question to see if there is already a thread or response
4.   If you do not get a response, that you do not keep repeating the question on the same thread or create new ones.

If you wish to use the forum, we will continue to monitor your posts as best we can to see whether you adhere to the above.

[yahya]

Thanks I understand this time and i won't reapet questions and i will be patient this time to not to bother people thanks

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Yahya,

Wa alaikum assalam

Please kindly see my responses to your questions in blue italics below. I trust that you will consider the responses carefully.

1. Verse 25:20 says every prophet walked the markets but markets did not exist before 5 thousand bc and adam abd noah came way before that

The verse does not speak about prophets, but 'messengers'. The Quranic language is very precise. Not all messengers were prophets [1]. Prophets had different aspects to their ministries [2]. Therefore, messengers would have come to a people that would have had some semblance of an established community where the message would have needed to be re-iterated or made clear.  They would have arguably come after the prophets (3:81) [3]. 

Trade is an integral part of any community regardless of size. It is expected that wherever / whenever there was a community that was able to trade or exchange goods no matter how small, a market of some nature would have existed. Messengers as part of these communities would have at least been expected to buy some form of food / goods or walked within it.

2. The same with 5:27 talks about sacrificing animals Adams sons and it says the story is similar to the bible but animals were not domesticated before 8 thousand bc and again adam came way way before that

There is no mention in verse 5:27 as to what the sacrifices that were demanded were. Even if the Biblical perspective is accepted that the offerings were a lamb from Abel and fruit of the soil from Cain (Genesis 4:2-8), I do not see this as remarkable / fantastic that the first humans were able to domesticate / capture cattle. After all, they were humans and inspired by God to have at least some sort of knowledge particularly as sustenance is a basic requirement of a human’s existence.

3. And verse 54:13 says noah made his ark out of nails but metal nails didn't exsist before 8 thousand bc

Verse 54:13 does not categorically claim that the ark was made out of nails. The Quran simply says that the ship was made from planks and 'dusur'. '(Singular - disar). Disar in this context means to fasten something. This can mean to fasten with a cord of fibres of the palm tree as well.

• - دَسَرَ, (M,) aor. دَسُرَ and دَسِرَ , (TA,) inf. n. دَسْرٌ, (M, K, TA,) He drove in a nail, with force: (K, * TA:) he nailed anything: (M:) he fastened, (M,) or repaired, (K,) a ship with a nail, (M, K,) or with cord of fibres of the palm-tree: (M:) or he fastened a ship by uniting its planks in the manner of sewing. (TA.) ― [4]
  

I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] END OF PROPHETHOOD - CONTINUATION OF MESSENGERS?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/end%20of%20prophethood%20FM3.htm
[2] ASPECTS OF A PROPHETIC MINISTRY
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/630255843778213
[3] IS VERSE 3:81 A REFERENCE TO ANY PARTICULAR MESSENGER?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/3-81%20FM3.htm
[4] LANE. E.W, Edward Lanes Lexicon, Williams and Norgate 1863; Librairie du Liban Beirut-Lebanon 1968, Volume 3, Page 879
Highlights marked in red on the lexicon excerpt are my own insertions. They have no bearing on the original text other than they emphasise relevance to the topic at hand. These are merely illustrations and have solely been utilised for educational and explanatory purposes.

[yahya]

Ok thanks so
1. The market question could of this been done by like trading meat for tools and vice versa like some scientists say is it possible that this verse could be link to that and it didn't need to be like markets with tables like now but just buying and selling in form of trade but like by meat for tools and vice versa doesn't have to be in form as money as coins but in there own firm of money like of meat or tools etc is this possible what the verse can mean that is it possible that this verse can be link with this what the scientists say like this is it possible jazzakkallah
2. And with qustion 2 your saying the animals didn't have to be domesticed but they could of been wild animals they captured
3. And qustion 3 you are saying the arabic word just means it had to be something to make the wood join together weather by rope or a chemical doesn't have to be by nails

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Yahya,

I am a little surprised that you have again required further clarifications despite my humble efforts to give you a comprehensive response. Can I please respectfully request that you do not repeat the approach you took last time with your postings before you were banned from this forum by the moderators.

1 - Any type of market where trading occurs. Buying and selling in any form. It appears you have completely missed the point of messengers coming to established communities where trading would have most likely been the norm. There is nothing wrong with the Quranic verse. Please kindly read my response again.

2 - I have made it clear that the Quran does not say what sacrifice was given. Even if the Biblical narrative is allowed, one of the sons of Adam had access to animals which he possessed. This could have been cattle that he herd as a shepherd that were in his possession or another type of animal that he had access to. The point being, he offered this as sacrifice. Again, there is nothing wrong with the Quranic verse or the Biblical narrative that has been used as an example.

3 - Yes

I hope this now completely clarifies the matter for you, God willing.

Regards,
Joseph

[yahya]

Thanks jazzakkallah but scientists say animals were not domesticated before 8 thousand bc so how could of Adam domesticed animals. The time he came like he would of come 70 thousand bc or before so he would of been a hunter and gatherer not a shepherd that domesticed animals because there no evidence of that in that time period but I do agree with you there is no mention for what was sacraficed and how etc

And could the word market in the verse be translated and mean in meaning as bartering like the scientists say humans did 150 thousand years ago

Also the arabic word for planks can that have any other meaning like just wood carved or any other in such etc

[yahya]

Also can you accuttully have a market like type in like 70 thousand bc when the human population groups around the world would only have about 200 people a group can you have a market type in such a small small group in each area because there would only be about 200 people to a tribe back then if you know what I mean is it possible to have a market type back then in a small tribe jazzakkallah

[QM Moderators Team]

Yayha,

Despite all the requests, it is being felt that you are once again asking unnecessary and pointless follow up questions after you have been given a response. We request that you do not do this as this time if a ban becomes the result, you will not be allowed to write on the forum again.

Thanks!

[yahya]

Ok sorry just one last part and ill leave it to this bit the quran talks about money and wealth and poor people but there wasn't money and there wouldn't of been poor people as such in the degree like now because everyone was kinder poor on the same leval everyone on the same wealth lifestyle same class if you know what I mean in adam and noah day if you know what I mean jazzakkallah

[Duster]

Shalom / peace Yahya .... Don't get me wrong but a lot of your posts really annoy me... There are people on this forum including respected brother Joseph that take out their time to answer your questions and it seems as you completely disregard them and continue to ask ridiculous questions ...

Which part of brother Joseph's response didn't you understand " It appears you have completely missed the point of messengers coming to established communities"

NOW LISTEN PLEASE - messengers came to established communities so there would have been poor people and trading and some way to exchange goods ... Now what is wrong with you that you don't understand this and keep on asking laborious irrelevant questions??.... No wonder you have been banned on this forum before!!!!!! (Sorry moderators .... but please try to understand that this is very irritating for members to read over and over again) ...

YAHYA - PLEASE THINK about the questions you ask and the responses that are given to you .... please really !!!!

[QM Moderators Team]

Dear Duster,

We understand the frustrations that you and others may have but please can you allow the moderators to deal with the issue. Yayha has already had a ban once and we have warned him / her that if this kind of posts continue, then he / she will not be able to post on this forum again. We are being very patient but will not hesitate to act. Therefore, please let us do our moderation. We understand your concerns.

Thanks !

[ilker]

Salamun alaykum all,

Dear Duster I understand your point but you should try to stay calm People can be very impatient at times no matter how many times they get warned. Keep in mind this beautiful ayah (the essence, the message of it) inshaAllah Maybe this ayah was revealed for "a particular crowd" but still I think it applies to all people who we communicate with. Sometimes when i get angry at someone,  this ayah comes to my mind (Alhamdulillah !):

"Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust." (3:159)

[Duster]

Salamun alaykum all,

Dear Duster I understand your point but you should try to stay calm People can be very impatient at times no matter how many times they get warned. Keep in mind this beautiful ayah (the essence, the message of it) inshaAllah Maybe this ayah was revealed for "a particular crowd" but still I think it applies to all people who we communicate with. Sometimes when i get angry at someone,  this ayah comes to my mind (Alhamdulillah !):

"Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust." (3:159)

Shalom / peace Ilker....i cannot argue with what you have shared.  I understand....jzk .....