Noah's Age 950 Years

[yahya]

Thanks I guess my last question is in your articles you say the quran doesn't say the bible is corrupt but what happens when the bible says one thing and the quran says another doesn't  that prove the bible is corrupt or something is wrong with the bible but thanks

[Joseph Islam]

With respect dear Yayha, I think you are deviating from the essence of your opening post. 

I felt you asked a good question in your opening posts which I acknowledged and I feel I tried to answer it to the best I feel the information within the Quranic text (brief) and the Bible allowed. Please let us kindly stay on topic.

Now as to my position on the Quranic text as the final criterion between right and wrong, I believe that you are already kindly aware of this.  I have already written extensively on this.

Regards,
Joseph

[yahya]

Please forgive me I was not questioning your position or belief I just wondered what does it mean if the quran says one thing and the bible says another when the quran confirms the bible

Also does the quran say that noah nation was the first to commit shirk  or was there nations before who commit shirk what's the quran position on this as well

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum

Thanks for sharing your views brother Joseph. They were very interesting and thought provoking.

The only verse I would say that sheds a little tension on your humble view is verse 7:20. Would you think that God really intented for Adam to live for eternity on earth considering that saitan was promising them eternity if they ate from the tree?

Also do you then think the flood covered the whole earth since the lifespan of people all over the earth decreased because of the floods impact on the earth or do you still hold your views that it was just Noah's people who were over taken but the flood effected the world population at that time regarding their longevity and carried on?

I would agree with your current view that it was possibly only Noah's people who were destroyed and other people possibly still were living as nations but the decrease in lifespans of them as well was possibly due to the impact of the flood to the whole earth and not just part of it. God knows best.

Dear brother Yahya

what does it mean if the quran says one thing and the bible says another when the quran confirms the bible

There has been lots of discussions regarding what you just asked.

It is of course when the two are in contrast with each other regarding a subject then the Quran is the truth and stands to correct the meaning of what it goes against in the Bible.

But in the posts that brother Joseph has discussed regarding the Bible the Quran does not mention them and he has mentioned that there is no reason for him to deny the Biblical narratives regarding the lifespan of the nations the Bible mentions. Because the Quran does not argue other wise or confirm and I also suppose there is no concrete science or evidence that supports otherwise or disproves the Bible.


Salam

[wanderer]

"We are also not aware of what damage the flood left on the areas surrounding where the ship finally rested and where the new generations of humans subsequently lived. It is quite possible that dietary resources changed and the scarcity of cultivated land etc. contributed to an impact on longevity. After all, a flood would have left immense devastation."

I could be wrong, but this does seem to conflict with Br. Joseph's previous remarks Noah(sws)'s Flood being localized. Do you still hold this position?
Regards
wanderer

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Hamzeh,

As-salamu alaykum

You are absolutely correct. My use of the word 'eternity' was not intended (now scored). My sentence should have simply read 'If we note the creation of Adam, who can be considered the perfected archetype of man, certainly arguably, from a genetic pool and physiological perspective (15:29, 38:72), he was fashioned to live in a state of felicity which is described as 'Jannah' on earth before he sinned.'

As I have mentioned in another comprehensive post [1] below, Adam's state was 'mortal' albeit with certain privileges not common to mortals as we know today. How much of these 'privileges' referenced in the post below contributed to longevity, even potentially over a 1000 years, this is difficult to conclude. However, the state pre-sin appears to indicate a greater general well-being than after the sin took place which included 'toil / suffering' (20:117) and a removal of the privileges that were previously enjoyed in multitude (sustenance / food without exception bar one (2:35); no hunger experienced (20:118); no sense of nakedness (20:118); no thirst experienced (20:119), not to feel the sun's heat despite a 'sun' being present (20:119); no toil / suffering (20:117)).

Either way, after the sin, it appears that general longevity was still close to a 1000 years, as evidenced by Prophet Noah’s age and if the Biblical perspective is admitted, the 10 generations of patriarchs from Adam till Prophet Noah.

The main point being argued was that the gene pool would have arguably been the strongest with the first human created by God and to see this gene pool extend to subsequent generations to Prophet Noah would not be so remarkable. I trust respectfully, that this point at least is still taken into consideration.

With regards the flood, I still hold the position that this would be localised as I have mentioned in post [2] below. However, this does not mean that it merely covered a small area. It is quite possible that the area was large enough that the entire community of humans from the remaining seed of Adam till Prophet Noah were wiped out by the flood bar those that were saved by the ship. As a crude example, even if certain continents today were engulfed in an immense flood, that would still not infer the 'entire' planet.

Therefore, there is no inference in the Quran to suggest that the transgressed communities by Prophet Noah's time had spread far and wide across the planet into other nations where a world-wide flood was necessary to wipe them from existence. After all, there were only 10 generations between Adam and Prophet Noah from a Biblical perspective, despite them having long lives. In line with God's way to punish those that have transgressed when the word is fulfilled against them, it is quite possible that Prophet Noah's message had reached the entirety of the population of humans who were contained in a certain area, but they still transgressed and were hence destroyed.
 
Therefore, I respectfully see no conflict with the statement 'We are also not aware of what damage the flood left on the areas surrounding where the ship finally rested and where the new generations of humans subsequently lived. It is quite possible that dietary resources changed and the scarcity of cultivated land etc. contributed to an impact on longevity. After all, a flood would have left immense devastation.' This statement arguably remains applicable whether a world-wide flood is argued for or not.

Finally, most importantly, please kindly note the caution that I shared in my response with the post:

“These thoughts are not intended to be comprehensive or authoritative but merely, humble suggestions given the information to our avail.”

I am usually very reluctant to respond to questions where one has to lean on uncertain information without at least, sharing a proviso / disclaimer of sorts. My engagement in this thread / response to Yahya in this instance has somewhat been an exception.  I usually try not to engage in such discourses.

This is also why I urged Yahya not to probe questions with a view to elicit responses which cannot be answered by anyone with any degree of certainty and take the Quranic advice:

018:022 (Part)
"Enter not, therefore, into controversies concerning them, except on a matter that is clear / obvious / apparent (Arabic: Illa miraan zahiran)..."

In future, I will try to be even more vigilant to heed my own advice, God willing.

Thanks for your input as always. 

Regards,
Joseph


RELATED:
   
[1] Was Adam created mortal? Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1505.msg7027#msg7027
[2] Was the flood on Noah's people global or local?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=502.msg1632#msg1632

[yahya]

This is not a question and this is my last information to this post I agree that every one could off been one community in noah time but my problem with that the quran makes it clear the noah was close to ad and thamud and we know if petra was thamud then noah had to be close to that time give or take a few thousand years before so if that is the case noah would be between 10-5 thousand bc so noah nation could not be one community if you know what I mean unless someone can prove that 7:65 and 7:74 doesn't mean noah was really close to ad and thamud timeline but that these verse just mean they were khalifas like noah but not after or near noah timeline to make noah close to ad and thamud timeline this is just information not a question but I'm done now but thanks for the help and I agree with joesph islam verse 18:22 part
Enter not, therefore, into controversies concerning them, except on a matter that is clear / obvious / apparent (Arabic: Illa miraan zahiran).
.."

But like I said I'm done with this question jazzakkallah

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Yahya,

As-salamu alaykum

With utmost respect, once again I find that there are a lot of assumptions in your statements.

For example, one cannot determine from the Quran what the exact gap in years is between Prophet Noah and the people of Aad or Thamud or indeed, if they immediately followed as the next generation of people. However, I have noted that you continue to make these assumptions. I have already shared a comprehensive perspective on Aad and Thamud and in relation to landmarks that are visible today. [1]

For example, just because Aad is referenced in verse 7:65 and in the previous verse, there is mention of the fate of Noah's people (7:64), this does not automatically imply that they immediately followed as a people or that there is a determinable time gap between them.

Thank you for acknowledging the sentiment in verse 18:22.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] Assalam alikum Joseph Islam - Thamud and the Nabateans
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2234.msg11668#msg11668

[yahya]

I know I was saying I agree with you what you said about ad and thamud that's what I was saying all I was saying was that 7:65 said khalifa so normally khalifa is past on from one nation to another so when the verse says after noah it makes it sound like they became the next khalifa after noah that was all but I was not questioning about thamud and ad I was saying I agreed with what you said in that discussion the thamud post jazzakkallah

[Hamzeh]

Wa alykum as salam brother Joseph

Thank you very much for your elaborations. I was not aware of the article about Adam being created mortal which led me to that question. I just wanted to make sure I was reading verse 7:20 correctly.

The main point being argued was that the gene pool would have arguably been the strongest with the first human created by God and to see this gene pool extend to subsequent generations to Prophet Noah would not be so remarkable. I trust respectfully, that this point at least is still taken into consideration.

Yes I agree

Regarding the pre-flood I was under the impression that civilizations were spread all over the world by Noah's time and thinking that the flood was then localized only to Noah's people, so I thought that the people who were not effected by the flood lets say in Mexico would still remain in their state of longevity. However you made the point that if the Biblical perspective was admitted which only 10 generations had lived from Adams time which does leave me with the imagination that they possibly did not spread world wide. Thanks.

Also I agree with your statement "it is quite possible that Prophet Noah's message had reached the entirety of the population of humans who were contained in a certain area, but they still transgressed and were hence destroyed."

Therefore, I respectfully see no conflict with the statement 'We are also not aware of what damage the flood left on the areas surrounding where the ship finally rested and where the new generations of humans subsequently lived. It is quite possible that dietary resources changed and the scarcity of cultivated land etc. contributed to an impact on longevity. After all, a flood would have left immense devastation.' This statement arguably remains applicable whether a world-wide flood is argued for or not.

I agree, God knows best.

“These thoughts are not intended to be comprehensive or authoritative but merely, humble suggestions given the information to our avail.”

I am usually very reluctant to respond to questions where one has to lean on uncertain information without at least, sharing a proviso / disclaimer of sorts. My engagement in this thread / response to Yahya in this instance has somewhat been an exception.  I usually try not to engage in such discourses.

This is also why I urged Yahya not to probe questions with a view to elicit responses which cannot be answered by anyone with any degree of certainty and take the Quranic advice:

018:022 (Part)
"Enter not, therefore, into controversies concerning them, except on a matter that is clear / obvious / apparent (Arabic: Illa miraan zahiran)..."

In future, I will try to be even more vigilant to heed my own advice, God willing.

I was aware they were not conclusive and were humble suggestions. I was also reluctant in asking you the questions as I know you don't like to get into arguments which are not apparent but I have to admit I do like to hear your suggestions as they do make a person realize that their is things we will never know for sure but I keep in mind that things like this are not conclusive but just an example and God knows best. I apologize for getting you into that.

Salam 

[Joseph Islam]

I was aware they were not conclusive and were humble suggestions. I was also reluctant in asking you the questions as I know you don't like to get into arguments which are not apparent but I have to admit I do like to hear your suggestions as they do make a person realize that their is things we will never know for sure but I keep in mind that things like this are not conclusive but just an example and God knows best. I apologize for getting you into that.

No need to apologise my dear brother. I am very glad you asked as it gave me an important opportunity to clarify and share further thoughts / links. May God bless you Insha'Allah 

As-salamu alaykum

Regards,
Joseph

[QM Moderators Team]

Yahya,

Your last post was removed as it was irrelevant to the opening post and the theme of this thread. You have already been warned not to continue with unnecessary discussions which are not relevant to the topic. Please don't mix topics from different threads.

Thanks.

[Hamzeh]

Thank you for your kind words dear brother.

May Allah (swt) bless you and the ones you love too Insha'Allah.

Wa alaykum as-salam

[Duster]

Shalom / peace brother Joseph... thank you so much for all your input on this topic...As always, its really nice to see your views. You really make one think. I think I agree with you on the limited population .... If there was as much corruption so much so that Allah had to destroy them all, I can only imagine the premature deaths in wars ... the diseases that may have spread among some of the unrighteous ... >>>the murders, the killings, the rapes ....pillaging etc .... So I think the numbers may not be that large come to think about it..... We can't just assume that because they had the potential of long lives that they were reproducing in large numbers, even in 10 generations or so ...even if they were .. they'll be numerous factors that could mean that many were also dying in high numbers - particularly as it was a really corrupt society .... In the end .....>>>Allah knows best ...

[yahya]

But also the bible says there's only 10 generations between noah and abraham as well