Understanding what is doubts in the quran

[ilker]

No not really....don't get me wrong but i think your point is a little desperate.

"Desperate" is not a nice word to use here, sounds belittling. I don't know what "covenant" are you talking about ? I haven't come across any translation with the word "covenant" for this surah.

Anyways, what do you imply by saying i didn't quote "the whole surah" ? I simply wanted the emphasize the last ayat to show you my thoughts on this. Why did you find it necessary to point out that you have quoted the whole surah without parantheses ?

Finally, what is your perspective on Surah Quraysh ? Don't you think we have anything to extract from it ? Do you think it's unnecesary for us ?

[Wakas]

peace Duster, all,

Whilst I understand the argument you are making, I would point out that just because we may not utilise those verses directly we may do so indirectly, e.g. in helping us narrow down the meaning of words/concepts etc.

[Duster]

No not really....don't get me wrong but i think your point is a little desperate.

"Desperate" is not a nice word to use here, sounds belittling. I don't know what "covenant" are you talking about ? I haven't come across any translation with the word "covenant" for this surah.

Please can i suggest then you look up more translations ...please? ...what is lilafi quraishin then? I don't think anyone can really be sure. ....that's my point.....

Also I told you not to get me wrong.  I wasn't trying to belittle you.  I just found your argument desperate so I said it....no bad intentions intended....

Even brother Joseph mentions this surah in one of his articles ....of course much more eloquently than me ...but point i think is similar....

106.001-4
"For the covenants (of security and safeguard enjoyed) by the Quraish (Arabic: Lilafi Qurayshin) , Their covenants (covering) journeys by winter and summer, Let them adore the Lord of this House, Who provides them with food against hunger, and with security against fear (of danger)"

·              Which covenant, where, what journey and what fear? We cannot ascertain any of these details from the 4 short verses. Indeed, historians attempt to furnish many different accounts of what happened, often seriously contradictory. Clearly, an assessment of these sources indicates that even the historians were non the wiser. In the end, no matter what version of the historian's report one accepts, the conclusion is the same.  It really does not matter what the details were other than the acknowledgment that this remains a time specific Surah (Chapter) for a certain people of a bygone era. And of course, any other inference that is readily obvious from the 4 verses.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/unknown%20towns%20and%20names%20FM3.htm

So my question....what were the lilafi quraishin??

[ilker]

No not really....don't get me wrong but i think your point is a little desperate.

"Desperate" is not a nice word to use here, sounds belittling. I don't know what "covenant" are you talking about ? I haven't come across any translation with the word "covenant" for this surah.

Please can i suggest then you look up more translations ...please? ...what is lilafi quraishin then? I don't think anyone can really be sure. ....that's my point.....

Also I told you not to get me wrong.  I wasn't trying to belittle you.  I just found your argument desperate so I said it....no bad intentions intended....

Even brother Joseph mentions this surah in one of his articles ....of course much more eloquently than me ...but point i think is similar....

106.001-4
"For the covenants (of security and safeguard enjoyed) by the Quraish (Arabic: Lilafi Qurayshin) , Their covenants (covering) journeys by winter and summer, Let them adore the Lord of this House, Who provides them with food against hunger, and with security against fear (of danger)"

·              Which covenant, where, what journey and what fear? We cannot ascertain any of these details from the 4 short verses. Indeed, historians attempt to furnish many different accounts of what happened, often seriously contradictory. Clearly, an assessment of these sources indicates that even the historians were non the wiser. In the end, no matter what version of the historian's report one accepts, the conclusion is the same.  It really does not matter what the details were other than the acknowledgment that this remains a time specific Surah (Chapter) for a certain people of a bygone era. And of course, any other inference that is readily obvious from the 4 verses.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/unknown%20towns%20and%20names%20FM3.htm

So my question....what were the lilafi quraishin??

I never said the translation you quoted was wrong. I have never come across the word "covenant" that's all. I don't speak arabic. If it is "covenant", so be it. It doesn't change my question. I was asking you a different question.

You're telling me not to get you wrong again while you also continue to use the word "desperate" Whatever... No problem...

I was asking you what was your perspective on Surah Quraysh or other surahs that are specific for a certain time period, group of people etc ?

What should we do with those surahs ? How should we understand them ? I'm asking these questions because i would like to get your point of view.

Do we have nothing to extract / learn from them ?

( I really don't know how i can ask these questions differently ? )

By the way, nice point brother Wakas.

[good logic]

Peace All.
Qoran comes as a whole package. GOD says it is a light to all mankind:
[Qoran 16:89] The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the muslimeen. [/size]
Can we really say some of it is irrelevant to us?
GOD chooses His words carefully and precisely:
[Qoran 25:1] Most blessed is the One who revealed the Statute Book to His servant, so he can serve as a warner to the whole world.
My understanding is everything in Qoran is useful to all the generations  except what GOD says it is not in it.
GOD bless .
Peace.

[Duster]

Shalom / peace Ilker ...to answer your question ....
We just have to accept that there are some time specific verses in the Quran.....ive given you an example ....Can't put it more simply than that.....the rest ofcourse is up to you ....

[ilker]

Salam Duster.

Alhamdulillah. It's ok. thanks.

[relearning]

dear ilker i am from turkey as well in istanbul. here is another one i share with you to support my time and history frame:

58:3 (mücadele suresi)
And those who pronounce thihar from their wives and then [wish to] go back on what they said - then [there must be] the freeing of a slave before they touch one another. That is what you are admonished thereby; and Allah is Acquainted with what you do.

Here thihar is a custom of arab men did in the past by saying their wifes your back is like my mother's back and hence produce a divorce statement. but quran says if you do this free a slave. These both practises of thihar and freeing slave is an old world local custom.

[relearning]

to continue support my view i would like to give another example as well.  suratul masad number: 111.

111:1 May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he.
111:2 His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained.
111:3 He will [enter to] burn in a Fire of [blazing] flame
111:4 And his wife [as well] - the carrier of firewood.
111:5 Around her neck is a rope of [twisted] fiber.

so as we do believe quran is fully detailed and succinct and mostly here we dont tolerate second resources (islamic history and hadeeths) as creditable. Here are some questions:

Who is abu lahab and his wife?
Why they were threaten such terrifying way? What did they do? Even satan, devil is not threatened that way anywhere in quran.
What did they to deserve such blazing fires so what we should to avoid such horrifying end?
What is the crime of the wife apart from being the wife of abu lahab?

we have no information nothing. If quran was timeless and spaceless these issues wouldnot come into mind ever. These two figures only known to the local arabs of living in the era of prophet.

[ilker]

Salam all

You guys keep on quoting examples of time/place specific ayat or surahs from the Quran but no one has answered my questions about them yet. I'll give it another try inshaAllah.

1. Do you think we have nothing to learn from those surahs today ? 

2. What should we do about them ? Just pass on them because they are irrelevant for our time ?

3. Why are they included in Allah's promise to keep the message protected for all times ? What's the point if they were to be "unnecessary" for next generations ?

[Wakas]

peace relearning,

Those who follow a Quran based islam regard The Quran detailed with regard to its purpose: salvation.

Not detailed with regard to irrelevant details, like the ones you ask about.

See:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/unknown%20towns%20and%20names%20FM3.htm

In any case, chapter 111 is about an archetype, quote:

An important point to consider is that AQ itself is against the use of nicknames [49:11], yet according to the traditional story "Abu Lahab" was the nickname for Abd-al-Uzza (who was supposedly the prophet Muhammad's uncle).

I think one of the most important points of the chapter is pointing out you will receive what you put forth (i.e. what goes around comes around, karma, law of requital). Watch the play on words...

Perish the hand of the father of flames/lahabin and perish he.
His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned
He will be sent to a flaming fire/lahabin

[relearning]

and one last example to support that quran must be evaluated within the surroundings it was sent i.e cultural social local historical frame of the society it was sent to and that it is not in totally in compliant with every ages' understading and terms. It has universal directives but besides that it has lots of parts which must be evaluated according to the historical, cultural social and time frame it is surrounded by:

2:223
Your women are a tillage for you, so come to your tillage as you will, and send ahead for your souls, and be Godwary, and know that you will encounter Him; and give good news to the faithful.

here it says your women implying polygamy of of arabic culture. Also it is using again manly view of the women. Men were always dominant in arabic society at that time (still now i guess). From todays' point of view many might claim it is objectifying women or putting them in a second level after the men in the society.

I do believe that quran has universal values but besides that it has many parts that must be evaluated according to our unique situations in time and history and space. Without using our minds to derive from quran and to bring new modern outcomes to answer today's needs our society will be threatened by sects like isis or similar ones. We must withdraw from the statemens such as quran's ayats are utmost decisons and end of history that everything is stated all we must to is to adhere its solutions. Instead we must understand that there are basic seeds of solutions in quran which aimed to solve firstly in the area it was sent according to their customs. We must see the patterns and update these seeds to become a solution tree according to the needs of different cultures and times needs. So my view of quran just has not final say on human history but it gives some light, som clues for people who want to use their mind. Otherwise it becomes a source of dogma like the present situation of islamic societies.

[good logic]

Peace relearning.
You say ,quote:
here it says your women implying polygamy of of arabic culture. Also it is using again manly view of the women. Men were always dominant in arabic society at that time (still now i guess). From todays' point of view many might claim it is objectifying women or putting them in a second level after the men in the society.

We cannot discuss polygamy here ,but verse 2:223 does not imply polygamy.
Verse 2:223 implies a "plural" for both men and women. the "Koum" and the verb "Faatu" in the verse indicates this plural .
So where is the polygamy?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[relearning]

yes  you are correct it also uses plural for males. But overall picture of quran ayats show clearly quran addresses a society in which polygamy is the most type of marriage.

[ilker]

salam all

Dear relearning you say:

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great" is also becoming obsolete in todays world women also becoming members of working class and even some maintaining their family instead of men.

inheritance for men having two whereas female taking one part in todays society it is already obsolete.

Usury or interest ban. Todays modern world stands upon the financial system of which usery is the backbone of it. And all islamic society came out with is profit share which is just a masking name of interest names in banks."

and also in your last post:

"We must see the patterns and update these seeds to become a solution tree according to the needs of different cultures and times needs."

So you claim that those ayats are "obsolete" for today. They were relevant in the past but they are not suitable for our time. So what is your solution or "update" for Allah's ayat ? You keep talking about "today's world", "today's society" and the Quran not being compatible with them.

But what if it's the other way around ?

"And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, those who do not expect the meeting with Us say, "Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it." Say, [O Muhammad], "It is not for me to change it on my own accord. I only follow what is revealed to me. Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day." (10:15)