Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

[Duster]

Peace Duster.
What do you mean by outside? Do you mean nothing to do with Qoran?
Without the verses,you cannot have Hikmah.
Hikmah , light,guidance are all part of the package called Qoran.
They are derived from its verses.
So far we both keep repeating ourselves. If you cannot accept the answers I gave you then either you or me are not clear about what is meant by outside!!! Outside to me means independent.
You see where you are not making sense to me when you say if Hikmah is not verses it is outside?

For me outside means outside Qoran,independent of Qoran,hence independent of its verses.
My answer to you ,hoping it will be clear for you this time is:
Since the Hikmah is dependent on the verses( derived from the verses) Hikmah is inside Qoran because the verses are Qoran.


GOD bless you.
Peace.

Please don't try to be naive ....

Outside means anything which is not EXPLICITLY stated in the Qur'an.... So if Allah gives 'hikmah' which is not explicitly stated in the verses of the Qur'an but derived from it ... then it cannot be inside the Qur'an ...

Now either accept the argument or stop going around in circles wasting time ... please !

[good logic]

Peace Duster.
When you say,quote:
Outside means anything which is not EXPLICITLY stated in the Qur'an.... So if Allah gives 'hikmah' which is not explicitly stated in the verses of the Qur'an but derived from it ... then it cannot be inside the Qur'an ...
 Derived from it is dependent on it ,hence in Qoran.
I do not see why you have a problem with that?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Duster]

Yes its derived from the verses .. BUT THE DERIVATION IS NOT EXPLICITLY STATED in the Qur'an .. What is wrong with you Good logic ? ... Are you being intentionally awkward to prove a point that you don't have? As is usual ... your post seem nonsense to me.

[ahmad]

Thank you again Brother Joseph for you answer 

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum

I think the point has been made clear after brother Joseph had given pretty much a detailed response of what hikma in verse 33:34 could mean and seemed to clarify lots of the matters and issues. Also he mentioned that the traditional brothers were correct on many fronts but did not mean they were correct in their ultimate motive.

In my humble opinion and with all due respect to everyone, that any other comments that do not target the main points and issues are diminishing the value of the thread. I always love to hear all the brothers and sisters comments but there is at some point where some comments are either repeated and exhausted or obscure the clarity of what has already been mentioned.

Sometimes if their is nothing new or convincing to be added then I suggest we just lean back and try to grasp what has been written unless really a valid point is to be noted or can be refuted, so it would make searching for answers very easy for anyone Insha'Allah.

As a reader of this site I would like to always see this forum on a high caliber level Insha'Allah as I really find this is a very valuable site Masha'Allah. May God bless it and its members.

I find you all have great comments and wisdom Masha'Allah, I learn lots from all your comments Alhamdulila and love to discuss and reason about Islam with all of you but I'm just reminding you that sometimes these kind of discussions often scare people away because they find no solid grounds or people who are firm on what they stand behind. It weakens the individual character and the trust of what has been said in the past.

May God bless you all for your efforts and Insha'Allah we all keep supporting this site with good character and evidence.

Salam

[good logic]

Dear Duster.
The conversation is not getting anywhere. I will summarise my argument for you and the readers and leave it at that:
MY point was this:
a) The traditional brother was not right at any stage of the debate in my opinion because the context of the debate was to follow Qoran alone or other sayings(Any other)
b)The brother on the tape was not correct to separate Hikmah from the ayat to imply there is "other than Qoran"for us in both the context of the debate and the context of the Qoran. The subject of the debate was not verses = Hikmah and the technicality of the Arabic language.

Then I went on to show with verses from Qoran that Ayat,Hikmah Noor and Guidance...are one package ,all derived from one source ,GOD s words i.e Qoran . Separating any of them will open a can of worms for "other than Qoran" to be authority for the deen.
If people here are saying we are only focusing on is verses=Hikmah? Then this was not the context of the tape nor was the brother in the tape discussing just this particular aspect.

I also do not agree on the word outside" to some it implies independent of the Ayat which is wrong in the context of Qoran.
Conclusion of the argument:
1- The traditional brother was wrong in both in the context of both the subject and the Qoran that Qoran should be the only source.
2- You cannot separate the Ayat,the Hikmah.the Noor, the guidance... as they all depend on GOD s words (the Ayats).
3- The Hikmah that GOD puts with the ayat in that verse  has only one source :The Qoran alone,hence GOD Alone.
4- If others .like the prophet had Hikmah ,it is because they followed the "Ayat" of GOD Alone.

Thank you for your conversation brother Duster.
Thank you all other members for your contribution as well.
GOD bless.
Peace.

[Duster]

Good logic - you have just repeated your nonsense...This is really bad logic in my opinion and I disagree with your conclusions.... Enough said .....other members can make their own minds up.

As others have said too...brother Joseph's argument was best put and I also agree with him when he said the following....

I feel it is always important to remember that wisdom entails broader understanding beyond the literal verse (which is also granted by God) and comes by the way of application after one has understood a body of knowledge / experience. This does not mean that one is sanctioning the Ahadith corpus with religious authority. I respectfully feel that those that claim otherwise (that wisdom is the same as the Quranic verses) have no warrant either in linguistics or Quranic context.

[QM Moderators Team]

This thread has now been closed.

Duster - Just a side note.  Although we or others may understand your frustrations with Good Logic's 'logic' or his arguments, please can we (as we have stated in private already) ask you to tone it down a little and your language.

Thanks!