Funeral prayer (Janaza prayer)

[good logic]

Peace Hamzeh.
Thank you for your post.
I agree with your correction,I meant to put "Younfekoon" not "Zakat". a printed mistake:

"[Qoran 3:134] who give-Younfekoon-during the good times, as well as the bad times. They are suppressors of anger, and pardoners of the people. God loves the charitable."

I put the wrong word-Zakat- in 3:135 in that post ,Apologies.
GOD bless you .
Peace.

[Mohammed]

Wa'alaikum Salam

Dear Hamzeh,

The reason for writing Swalah is,
I feel more naturalness with the following transliteration and I believe this is the correct pronunciation.
سَ - sa
سَّ - ssa
صَ - swa
صَّ - sswa

Regarding Swalah, please see my views here
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2389.0

And for your other questions/ arguments, I believe the necessary replies are here in this thread, and I do not wish to go over what has already been said.

Salam.

[good logic]

Correction again from my last post, I meant 3:134 and not 3:135.

Apologies again.

[ilker]

Dear All,
Assalaamu 'alaikum

I hope you have corrected the mistake in my reply (#4) with the verse 2:239.
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But i would like to know what you think about when you say:

"So no point of performing Swalah other than the mentioned times. ."

To you, is it pointless (or maybe even wrong) to pray voluntarily to Allah(swt), for example praying two rakaats of volunteer prayer, besides the prescribed daily prayer times ? Is it forbidden or wrong to make volunteer salah between the fajr and the noon for example ?

Dear ilker,

As I understood from the Qur'an, Swalah is a timed practice of worship. If we are performing this practice at any time as our wish, it may not coincide with the Qur'anic definition for the Swalah (4:103). This can be easily understood if we apply this thought to Hajj,

What do you think about performing Hajj at months other than the 4 sacred months ?

The purpose of any rituals/ practices of worship is to remember Allah at/by certain times in different ways. Whether it is Swalah or Fasting in Ramadan or Hajj etc., the basic concept is the same.

Qur'an says,

[4:103] "So if you accomplished the Prayer, so remember Allah standing, and sitting, and on your sides..."

[2:152] "So remember Me, I remember you, and thank/be grateful to Me and do not disbelieve."

[24:37] "Men, commercial trade and nor selling/trading does not distract/divert them from remembering Allah, and keeping up the prayers and giving/bringing the charity/purification..."

[33:41] "You, you those who believed, remember Allah much remembering."

[33:35] "...and the remembering (the men) Allah much, and the remembering (the women), Allah prepared for them a forgiveness and a great reward."

[63:9] "You, you those who believed, (let) not your properties/possessions/wealths and nor your children distract/preoccupy you from remembering Allah, and who makes/does that, so those, they are the losers."

[29:45] "...and start/keep up the Prayer, that the Prayer forbid/prevent from the enormous/atrocious deeds and the defiance of Allah and His orders/obscenity and Allah's remembrance/reminder (is) greater indeed..."

So, the first and the foremost thing we always have to bear in mind is, the remembrance of Allah, the thankfulness for the great gift He has bestowed upon us. The awareness that He is watching our each second and each of it will be questioned. And this consciousness/ reminder is an essential part of our life, it is not restricted to any practices of worship, i.e. even without any special practices of worship (like Swalah) Qur'an command us to remember Allah.
But because of the ardent human desire towards the wordly life and the evil forces present around us, human beings are not able to keep the remembrance of Allah. That may be the reason behind the grace of the institution of the mandatory/ special practices of worship at particular time intervals by Allah.

And Allah knows best.

I expect opinions/ advises from you all,

Salam all

Dear brother Mohammad,

I'm obviously not speaking out against the concept of "timed daily prayers". What I'm trying to tell you is sometimes you feel so depressed that you want to call out to Allah (swt) sincerely, from the bottom of your heart, sometimes you feel so happy that you witnessed what you had asked from Allah(swt) came true, you want to thank him in tears of joy, then your head bends over and you do sajdah. Some people raise their hands and make a silent d'ua, some people want to offer a volunteer prayer with rukoo and sajdah.

In brief, I'm talking about nafila (extra) prayers which i don't find contrasting to the teachings of the Quran (like when Prophet Davud pbuh made sajdah to ask forgiveness from Allah in 38:21-24) This has nothing to contradict with the regular daily prayers cause it's not against the concept of it. According to you: we should not perform any prayers with rukoo and sajdah other than the daily prayers ? If I'm mistaken please correct me.

You give the example of hajj but i kindly want to remind you of "umrah", which is not the same as timed "hajj", you can do it anytime. It's a voluntary act of worship. Like "nafila" prayers, which are not the same as prescribed, obligatory daily prayers but still an act of worship and gratitude towards Allah (swt).

"Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah. So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times (tatawwaAAa, voluntarily), should compass them round, it is no sin in them. And if any one obeyeth his own impulse to good,- be sure that Allah is He Who recogniseth and knoweth." (2:158)


Take care guys

[ilker]

Oh and i forgot to mention that i agree with brother Hamzeh's post above Thanks to all of you guys for your kindness.

Salam

[Mohammed]

Assalaamu 'Alaikum all

Brother ilker,

The summarised form of my thoughts are the following,

Our whole life is only to worship God. Swalah and Hajj are timed acts of worship.

[51:56] "And I did not create the Jinns and the humankind except to worship Me."

I did not find any verse in Al Qur'an which command the believers to perform Hajj at any time they wish or to do Swalah at any time they wish. It is up to you if you want to do these acts any time as your wish, and I believe I did not say anything which contradicts the verses like 38:21-24.

Take care.

[Mohammed]

Assalaamu 'Alaikum
Brother ilker,

I think I am wrong when I say, "So no point of performing Swalah other than the mentioned times."  I am sorry.
I don't know how valid such acts when they are performed at times other than the prescribed times. Thank you all for your kind replies/ advices.

Anyway I do not support the Janaza prayer as I did not find enough proofs for this act from Al Qur'an.

Salam.

[Joseph Islam]

Anyway I do not support the Janaza prayer as I did not find enough proofs for this act from Al Qur'an.

As-salamu alaykum

In my humble opinion, that some kind of prayer was being held after the death of a believer is in my opinion, irrefutable from the Quran.

005.106
“O you who believe! call to witness between you when death draws nigh to one of you, at the time of making the will, two just persons from among you, or two others from among others than you, if you are travelling in the land and the calamity of death befalls you; the two (witnesses) you should detain after the prayer (Arabic: Salati); then if you doubt (them), they shall both swear by God, (saying): We will not take for it a price, though there be a relative, and we will not hide the testimony of God for then certainly we should be among the sinners”

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] PRAYING 'FOR' THE DEAD IS DIFFERENT FROM PRAYING 'THROUGH' THE DEAD
http://quransmessage.com/articles/praying%20for%20and%20praying%20through%20FM3.htm

[ilker]

Assalaamu 'Alaikum
Brother ilker,

I think I am wrong when I say, "So no point of performing Swalah other than the mentioned times."  I am sorry.
I don't know how valid such acts when they are performed at times other than the prescribed times. Thank you all for your kind replies/ advices.

Anyway I do not support the Janaza prayer as I did not find enough proofs for this act from Al Qur'an.

Salam.

wa alaykum selam brother Mohammad,

There is nothing to be sorry about brother it's very kind of you to say that.

For example Allah (swt) talks about people who spend extra time at nights to seek Allah's love and mercy in the Quran (51:17). From what I understand, He (swt) loves those who make self-sacrifice and devotion to earn His mercy and love.

Anyways, let's stay on the topic here

Take care.

[Mohammed]

Wa'alaikum salam

Dear brother Joseph,

Thank you for the reply.

The verse 5:106 simply mentions 'the Prayer', we are assuming it as the Janazah prayer because it is confirmed by general Muslim practice (There are much more unQuranic practices which are confirmed/followed as general Muslim practice). Suppose the practice of Janazah prayer is not in the general Muslim practice, then we will interpret the term Swalah in the verse 5:106 as the forthcoming mandatory prayer.

I am still in doubt that whether this is a true practice in Islam or not. When Qur'an gives clear description for different acts of worships like Swalah, Hajj, Umrah, Fasting in Ramadan etc, regarding the Janazah prayer there is no sufficient proof from the Qur'an.  Not even the term 'Janazah prayer' is used.

Or suppose the Swalah mentioned in 5:106 as a particular prayer done for the deceased, but a Qur'anic Swalah having prostration, the only possible exception is, in fear from the disbelievers (that too Qur'an does not tell to pray without prostration. If one can do Prayer during riding/walking/running, a symbolic prostration is also possible). The Janazah prayer confirmed by general Muslim practice lacks prostration. And if this form without prostration is a true practice in Islam, then from where humans got the form of this special prayer ? since Al Qur'an does not describe such a prayer anywhere in it. I believe it is just an assumption like, the many other assumed practices in the name of Islam.

Allah's laws are always Perfect. No doubt in that. And we are ordered to just obey the laws as prescibed. Human thoughts or any other creations(in my knowledge) are insufficient to make change in a perfect religion by adding or removing something. But instead of trying to become the true being by simply obeying the rituals/laws which are already present in the scipture, humans are finding new rituals or new ways of worship by their own thoughts and trying to institute it into the religion and misguiding the succeeding generations. This is the fact which is well evident throughout the history and in the present day as well. If this practice of funeral prayer is just a human assumption like the many other things, we will be corrupting the true religion and we will be corrupting God's laws.

[Al Qur'an 16:37] "And (do) not follow what you have no knowledge with it. Truly, the hearing, and the sight, and the heart - all those (will be) questioned about it."

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Mohammed,

As-salamu alaykum

The verse 5:106 simply mentions 'the Prayer', we are assuming it as the Janazah prayer because it is confirmed by general Muslim practice (There are much more unQuranic practices which are confirmed/followed as general Muslim practice). Suppose the practice of Janazah prayer is not in the general Muslim practice, then we will interpret the term Swalah in the verse 5:106 as the forthcoming mandatory prayer.

With utmost respect dear brother, this is incorrect in my humble opinion. Even if I was unaware of the traditional practice and I was subjecting the Quran to academic scrutiny for the first time, I would be inclined to conclude simply based on that verse that there was arguably an existing practice in situ, where some kind of prayers were offered after one passed away.

This is because of the context and the proximity of the mention of death with a certain kind of prayer.

“…if you are travelling in the land and the calamity of death befalls you; the two (witnesses) you should detain after the prayer (Arabic: Salati)” (5:106 part)

In my opinion, this is unlikely to be a reference to any random compulsory prayer during the day, but a prayer that is specifically linked to the deceased. Verse 9:84 further corroborates this view underscoring the notion that a practice of praying for the dead was already in situ.

Of course you are free to dismiss these verses as this is your prerogative. However, in my humble opinion, the basis of the rejection will not be cogent.

“Not even the term 'Janazah prayer' is used.”

I do not feel it correct to expect a phrase when the context in verse 5:106 clearly seems to suggest that this was a practice in situ. The Quran did not prescribe a new practice but accepted it with provisos (9:84).

You also mention:

In this regard, I will interpret the verse 9:84 as it refers such kind of a restriction (If the Prophet were supporting/ helping for the burial of the debauchers/ disbelievers, it may really disturb the believers' mind), and therefor, here the term tuswalli denotes the social responsibility which one have to do for the deceased in the society.

I respectfully find no Quranic warrant for this interpretation in this context. The verb ‘yusalli’ that is used in verse 9:84 is the same verb used in verse 4:102 which you appear to accept as referring to a prayer scenario. It is the same verb used in verse 3:39 to describe the prayer actions of Zachariah in his sanctuary. The context determines best interpretation.

It appears that the thrust of your contention is borne from your assertion that a ‘salah’ requires prostration with specific lean on verse 4:102. Albeit, this verse is referring to the compulsory prayers held in congregation where safety can be generally assured, I do not find this negating the concept of a funeral prayer simply based on the mention of prostration in this context of the verse.

However, even though you have been cited a reference where a prostration is arguably not required in verse 2:239 (and you have tacitly admitted this), you seem to dismiss this without warrant.

Therefore in conclusion, where you doubt the practice, I would have to respectfully beg to differ.

I clearly see the practice acceptable from a Quranic perspective.

Regards,
Joseph

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu 3alykum brother Mohammed


I hope you don't mind but I would just like to give my thoughts regarding your last message to brother Joseph.

You said

Suppose the practice of Janazah prayer is not in the general Muslim practice, then we will interpret the term Swalah in the verse 5:106 as the forthcoming mandatory prayer.

When someone dies, a community is responsible to setup a system or some sort of process to deal with the deceased. There seems to be a time frame when people should start to deal with burials, financial issues and unsolved matters of the deceased.

I think the main focus of the verse 5:106 is that there is a prayer that marks the start of collecting information and a start to move on.
Its arguable that the start would only be after some sort of prayer for the deceased and not the forthcoming mandatory prayer.

If one dies minutes before fajr and the witnesses already had taken the testimony , would be it plausible that right after fajr prayer they should be detained? Who are they going to be detained by if they are travelling in the land?

This strongly seems to illustrate that the body has been gathered and put in a place(possibly a mosque) and some sort of prayer was taking place by a community and that some people are authorized to collect the witnesses and take their testimonies.

I am still in doubt that whether this is a true practice in Islam or not. When Qur'an gives clear description for different acts of worships like Swalah, Hajj, Umrah, Fasting in Ramadan etc, regarding the Janazah prayer there is no sufficient proof from the Qur'an.  Not even the term 'Janazah prayer' is used.

With all due respect brother, Joseph did not say that the Quran commands such a prayer or practice, but only that a possible voluntary practice from the believing community was taking place in the time the Quran was being revealed and the Quran seems to honour it or at least mention it and also commanded what to do after such a prayer. Yes it could of turned into a tradition of the believing people.

In my humble opinion there would be no need to change or criticize a practice that the Quran does not condemn yet arguably accepts.

After all the prayer of today in the main is not fully described in fine detail in the Quran but does indeed overlap what the Quran did command with regards how prayer should be observed. For example, the motions of the hands, the turning of the heads to the sides, etc

And if this form without prostration is a true practice in Islam, then from where humans got the form of this special prayer ? since Al Qur'an does not describe such a prayer anywhere in it. I believe it is just an assumption like, the many other assumed practices in the name of Islam.

I think the previous answer should explain this. Allah(swt) did not command that there should be a prayer for the deceased, and it is not part of the obligatory prayers so it is possibly up to people how they wish to perform the prayer for the dead and does not need to be with the same method. I would also add that there does seem to be some logic to the traditional kanazawa prayer as it shows that it should not be mistaken for the obligatory prayers. God knows best

Have you ever considered if the Quran mentions anything about how to bury the dead? I would like to share a article below as I think you will realize just because the Quran does not specifically fine detail a practice and how it should be done then if implemented it is forbidden or not part of true Islam.

It seems to not be the intention of the Quran to keep away communities from developing modest practices regarding certain aspects of life but to make sure they do not go against the main message.

Please see this article incase you have not read it.

Salam


PREPARING THE DEAD BODY FOR BURIAL AND THE QURAN'S PERSPECTIVE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/preparing%20the%20dead%20body%20for%20burial%20and%20the%20quran's%20perspective%20FM3.htm

[Hamzeh]

Jazak Allah brother Joseph

[Mohammed]

Wa'alaikum salam

Brother Joseph and Brother Hamzeh,
Thank you for your replies.

I think it's time to stop from my side Hope I have shared my thoughts best as I can.
And Allah knows best.

After all the prayer of today in the main is not fully described in fine detail in the Quran but does indeed overlap what the Quran did command with regards how prayer should be observed. For example, the motions of the hands, the turning of the heads to the sides, etc

Brother Hamzeh, please see this if you have not read it.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2387.0

[Mohammed]

Asalamu 3alykum

Dear brother Good logic

Thanks for sharing your kind comments

I don't mean to intrude on this discussion, but I thought I would bring it up incase you were not aware and to show why its important to translate the terms correctly and not use interpolations when it comes to translations.


You had translated verse 3:134 by using the word "Zakat" for the word "Yunfiqoona", which I find is a unwarranted translation.

You translation

"[Qoran 3:134] who give Zakat during the good times, as well as the bad times. They are suppressors of anger, and pardoners of the people. God loves the charitable."

"zakat" is not really a voluntary task in my humble opinion rather "zakat" is duty and not voluntary and must be paid by those who make a profit.

However profits do vary in ones life but it does not matter they still need to be paid. So interpreting "Allatheena yunfiqoona fee alssarrai waalddarrai" as you did would be problematic when the Quran commands "Zakat" to be paid at all times.

It would be better translated as:

3:134 "Those who spend (of that which Allah hath given them) in ease and in adversity, those who control their wrath and are forgiving toward mankind; Allah loveth the good;"

The meaning would possibly mean those who after paying their "zakat" whether they have lots of money left over(good times in ease) or not that much money left over (adversity times) still spend from what is left.

Those are my thoughts.

Please see related article


WHAT IS THE CONCEPT OF ZAKAT FROM THE QURAN?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/zakah%20FM3.htm

Assalaamu 'alaikum All

Brother Hamzeh,
I respectfully find no Quranic warrant for the above interpretation.

[Al Qur'an' 19:31] "And He made me blessed, wherever I was/am, and He directed/commanded me with the Prayer and the Zakat as long as I continued/lasted alive."

Here, The Qur'an gives same importance to Zakat like Swalah. Believeres are commanded to Pray at the prescribed times if they are alive, it doesn't matter in what circumstance/situation they are, whether they are diseased or on a journey or even in a fear of attack.
Eventhough the verse tells that the Prophet Jesus is 'blessed' wherever he is, Still, in my humble opinion Believers are obliged to pay Zakat irrespective of their 'profit' condition.