Musa and Khidr

[Amira]

Salaam,

In 18:80 (part of the Moses-wise man story), Khidr is said to have killed a child because he 'suspected' the child might grow up to overburden his parents with disbelief. This is despite the fact that Quran 5:32 prohibits taking a soul except as a punishment for murder or corruption on Earth. 18:65 says Khidr was gifted with mercy and wisdom, but I think Moses was right to ask why he killed the child. If the child was killed then, he would have had no chance to repent later.

Is there an alternate understanding of the story? If not, is there a way to reconcile the contradiction?

The Quran only allows punishment for proven crimes, and even then there is a concession of mercy, depending on whether the perpetrator repents. Killing the child despite this would be a clear violation, even if Khidr allegedly had knowledge of the Unseen.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Amira,

Wa alaikum assalam

Purely from a Quran's perspective, can you please kindly share with me how you have concluded the name 'Khidr' and that he was a wise 'man'. I respectfully ask this in light of the description given by the Quran in verse 18:65 and the concluding remarks 'wama faʿaltuhu ʿan amri'  'I did not do it on my own accord / desire / command." [18:82]

Hopefully this may open up more possibilities of cogent interpretations for you.

Regards,
Joseph

[Amira]

The name is from secondary source narrations.

OH.

It says "a servant..." (abd) so, not necessarily an actual human. And he didn't do it of his own accord...so he probably wasn't human, and was sent specifically to teach Moses a lesson, and he didn't make the choice to do those things. That could signify him being an angel (possibly), because angels generally don't do things of their own accord, and angels are known to break worldly laws.

[Amira]

Do you think that's the right interpretation?

[Zack]

When referring to stories in the Quran, my understanding is that they are ahistorical. The stories of the Qur'an are known oral stories circulated in the Prophets context. They were utilised generally for another purpose, ie. To bring give examples of God's judgement if people do not repent.

This changes totally the way you approach such stories below, of Moses etc. Muhammad had no clear understanding of the stories of the former books, which were not in Arabic. The purpose of the story was to show "That God is forgiving and merciful" (v57,58). Therefore a local oral Arabic story was used to emphasize this point.

In my opinion, treating the stories of the Qur'an as a historical book doesn't fulfill its purpose, and has very little basis. Increasingly the origins of the Qur'an's stories as oral in the region at Muhammad's time is clear.

Wasalam
Zack

[Duster]

When referring to stories in the Quran, my understanding is that they are ahistorical.

In my opinion, treating the stories of the Qur'an as a historical book doesn't fulfill its purpose, and has very little basis. Increasingly the origins of the Qur'an's stories as oral in the region at Muhammad's time is clear.

Wasalam
Zack

Shalom / peace Zack

What are you trying to say? That these stories may not be true? That they are simply stories circulated by the Arabs?  .....Your posts sometimes seem to suggest to me that GOD cannot use real events to derive a message.....Remember it is GOD that teaches a prophet called Muhammad.  Prophet Muhammad isn't using an old story which never happened to make the point.....


If I've misunderstood you..... please clarify....


PS: brother Joseph ....i liked the way you responded with the 'Food for thought ' approach and getting the enquirer to share further thinking based on new information .......

[Zack]

What are you trying to say? That these stories may not be true? That they are simply stories circulated by the Arabs? 
If I've misunderstood you..... please clarify....

Yes, that is correct. This doesn't diminish the purpose of the message of the Qur'an. To me, and many others, everything points towards the stories of the Qur'an being oral stories in Arabia at the surrounding region at the time of Muhammad.

Muhammad wasn't revealed a history book. He was revealed a message. And to communicate that message, local stories were used. Most logically thinking people would see quickly that the Qur'an does not read as presenting History, when they put it beside any historical document. There is no chronology, little or no context to events.

If you were to recreate a history of the Prophets (Relevant Places, time, people etc), from the Qur'an, it is not possible. In fact, to say that the Qur'an is a historical Book is an insult to the Qur'an.

[Joseph Islam]

The name is from secondary source narrations.

OH.

It says "a servant..." (abd) so, not necessarily an actual human. And he didn't do it of his own accord...so he probably wasn't human, and was sent specifically to teach Moses a lesson, and he didn't make the choice to do those things. That could signify him being an angel (possibly), because angels generally don't do things of their own accord, and angels are known to break worldly laws.

Dear Amira

As-salamu alaykum

This is very plausible.

It is also useful to remember that God's appointed non-human emissaries have at times come disguised as humans with the duty of being message bearers. There is an example of the visitation to Mary (19:17) and those messengers that came to Prophet Abraham and his wife with the news of a child (51:28) and the destruction of the people of Lot (51:32; 29:31-32). It is also no surprise that the emissaries to Prophet Abraham did not eat the food served to them (51:27), as messenger angels arguably don't / have no need for earthly food (25:20-21).

Regards,
Joseph

[Joseph Islam]

When referring to stories in the Quran, my understanding is that they are ahistorical. The stories of the Qur'an are known oral stories circulated in the Prophets context. They were utilised generally for another purpose, ie. To bring give examples of God's judgement if people do not repent.

And to communicate that message, local stories were used. Most logically thinking people would see quickly that the Qur'an does not read as presenting History

Dear Zack,

As-salamu alaykum

Albeit I concur that the Quran does not indeed intend to be a ‘history book’, in my humble view, your overarching perspective (from what I understand) is incorrect from a Quran's perspective.

The stories are not meant to be ahistorical or be devoid of historical reality. Verse 28:3 and many others intend to make this clear.

028:003
“We narrate / recite to you from the news / stories Moses and Pharaoh in truth, for folk who believe.”

Other stories have been hedged with similar narrative expectations, that they are a rehearsal of an actual piece of historical reality.

012:111
"Verily, in their stories / histories there is a lesson for men of understanding. It is no invented story but a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of everything, and a guidance and a mercy for people who believe."

Regards,
Joseph

[Zack]

“We narrate / recite to you from the news / stories Moses and Pharaoh in truth, for folk who believe.”[/i][/color]

Other stories have been hedged with similar narrative expectations, that they are a rehearsal of an actual piece of historical reality.

012:111
"Verily, in their stories / histories there is a lesson for men of understanding. It is no invented story but a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of everything, and a guidance and a mercy for people who believe."

Regards,
Joseph

For me, I try to realistically visualise the context such as the couple of verses above to understand them. Arabs who had little or no knowledge of the Kitab that was held by the Ahli Kitab. To those people who have sometimes been hearing stories NOT in the Kitab, even parchments being sold as if they are from Kitab, Muhammad is saying that the stories of Moses and Pharaoh ARE in the Kitab, the one held by the Ahli Kitab.

Remembering the same context, reading 12:111, I think we need to use the type of language being used. "A detailed explanation of everything"... The Qur'an certainly is not a "Detailed explanation" of the previous Books. A quick look at the number of pages and stories will answer that, nor is there any logical sequence.

I take away from such verses that the Qur'an is presenting that the message is inter-connected / integrated with the previous books, and the characters in the Qur'an are the characters within the previous books.

Beyond this, I personally do not base my conclusions only upon internal statements within the Qur'an..

Great to chat again,

Zack

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Zack,

I supplied two verses as simple examples and clearly inferred that these were meant to be viewed as such (Verse 28:3 and many others intend to make this clear). I purposely did not intend to provide a comprehensive rebuttal to your understanding but merely a summary of my views based on my humble holistic understanding / study of the Quran.

Beyond this, I personally do not base my conclusions only upon internal statements within the Qur'an..

Then that may be our fundamental difference which is supported by arguably, our different approaches to the Quran.

I see the statements of the Quran as truth and revealed by God to a human messenger and thus, I do make my conclusions based on its internal statements as a believer.

Regards,
Joseph

[Amira]

As far as I know Quranic stories are all meant to be historical (see the Sleepers of the Cave article where the historical correlation is described). Also, I like the idea that he was an angel. Maybe it's meant to signify that there are laws we don't understand, angels are not like us, and agents from the unseen world do things that might appear wrong but there's a reason. Also the Quran is guidance for mankind and probably not for angels.

http://quransmessage.com/travelogues/seven%20sleepers%20FM3.htm

[Amira]

It's clear that the angel disobeyed the Quran, this is irreconcilable, but I posit that it doesn't matter because the Quran is not for angels.

[Joseph Islam]

Maybe it's meant to signify that there are laws we don't understand, angels are not like us, and agents from the unseen world do things that might appear wrong but there's a reason.

Dear Amira,

I would personally incline to substitute the word 'laws' for 'events' in this particular case, but from what you have shared above, very plausible indeed. 

I have a related post which may be of interest, God willing.

ANGELS (MALA'IKAH)
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/284730018330799

Regards,
Joseph

[ilker]

Salam all

"Or have you thought that the companions of the cave and the inscription were, among Our signs, a wonder?" (18:9)

"We relate to you their story with the truth; surely they were youths who believed in their Lord and We increased them in guidance." (18:13)

"And they remained in their cave for three hundred years and exceeded by nine. Say: Allah is Best Aware how long they tarried. His is the Invisible of the heavens and the earth. How clear of sight is He and keen of hearing! They have no protecting friend beside Him, and He maketh none to share in His government." (18:25-26) 

"And all we relate to you of the accounts of the messengers is to strengthen your heart therewith; and in this has come to you the truth and an admonition, and a reminder to the believers." (11:120)

"And when Our revelations are recited unto them they say: We have heard. If we wish we can speak the like of this. Lo! this is naught but fables of the men of old. They also said, ‘God, if this really is the truth from You, then rain stones on us from the heavens, or send us some other painful punishment.’ But Allah would not punish them while thou wast with them, nor will He punish them while they seek forgiveness." (8:31-33)

Saying that the story of Prophet Musa and his companian (peace be upon them) is just a tale to show Allah(swt)'s forgiveness and nothing more, can make you unaware of the brilliant guidance and admonitions that you can extract from it (and from any other story in the Quran).