Women's issues.. Again

[Sleepysoul]

Salam,

Sometimes I feel like I go back to doubting whether women really are given as much importance as men in Islam. I know this topic is very popular and some people would probably be annoyed about hearing it again and again but it's a very important one. I guess not many men would understand what it feels like.

Recently someone asked me what I would say about the "one man, two women" witness thing and I honestly felt kind of.. tired about having to answer a question I'm not too sure how to..
Sometimes it does feel like having to keep defending Islam.. maybe this is a part of our test.

Then there are issues such as polygamy, the purpose and "wisdom" of which I just don't understand.
Then there are some verses that confuse me somewhat:

3:14 Beautified for people is the love of that which they desire - of women and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return.

One thing that really bothers me is how so many Muslim men don't acknowledge that women also have desires. They also find men attractive. They also have to protect themselves from sin and distraction. It's as if the focus is often on men and how to fix their overly aggressive "hormones". By covering women up, by marrying several women, slaves, promises of "hoories" etc..

And:

Then, has your Lord chosen you for [having] sons and taken from among the angels daughters? Indeed, you say a grave saying. - 40:17.

There are a few similar verses. Sons are not better than daughters..
And women desire men too..
Of course I'm not saying that Allah is denying any of this. Astaghfirullah. Maybe it's just a lack of understanding on my part. I hope Allah guides me and everyone going through similar.

It's also probably the corruption that men have caused that makes me and many others think this way, hoors, multiple wives just for lust, domestic abuse etc..

Sigh.
It'd be nice if a few could talk to me, perhaps through pm to maybe discuss things.
Perhaps it's normal to have ups and downs.
May Allah forgive me if I said something wrong.

Salam.

[ahmad]

Dear Sleepysoul

Sometimes I feel like I go back to doubting whether women really are given as much importance as men in Islam

I think Its is very important to acknowledge the Quranic principles that states that Men and Women are spiritually equal. Although they may have different roles and responsibilities in this life, ultimately in the hereafter (Which what really matters in the end) no soul will be wronged because of its Gender. And all souls will get what ever they desire in Paradise.

33:35
"Indeed the Muslim men and the Muslim women, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obedient men and the obedient women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women, and the humble men and the humble women, and the men who give charity and the women who give charity, and the men who fast and the women who fast, and the men who guard their private parts / chastity and the women who guard it, and the men who remember God much and the women who remember - God has prepared for THEM forgiveness and a mighty / great reward."

16:31
Gardens of perpetual residence, which they will enter, beneath which rivers flow. They will have therein whatever they wish. Thus does Allah reward the righteous -


One opinions is that the Quran describes what Men will get in Paradise and its left ambiguous for Women, not because women will be wronged. On the contrary they will get whatever they will desire. But behind not mentioning a specific reward is wisdom as pointed out in this video by Brother Nouman Ali Khan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVybKR_O_34
You also might want to read brother Joseph's opinion on the matter. He has interpreted the issue differently. http://quransmessage.com/articles/sexy%20female%20virgins%20for%20men%20in%20heaven%20FM3.htm .

Then there are issues such as polygamy, the purpose and "wisdom" of which I just don't understand.

You can also see Zakir Naik's argument regarding the wisdom behind polygamy. However any rationalization should remain secondary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm8m2Cik040 (I don't necessary agree with all what he said, but still you can get good points from his argument)

One thing that really bothers me is how so many Muslim men don't acknowledge that women also have desires. They also find men attractive. They also have to protect themselves from sin and distraction. It's as if the focus is often on men and how to fix their overly aggressive "hormones"

But actually the Quran acknowledges that Women too have desires. For example this is apparent in Prophet Joseph's story. And is also apparent when God asks women to lower their gaze.

[12:23]
And she, in whose house he was, sought to seduce him. She closed the doors and said, "Come, you." He said, "[I seek] the refuge of Allah. Indeed, he is my master, who has made good my residence. Indeed, wrongdoers will not succeed."
12:24]
And she certainly determined [to seduce] him, and he would have inclined to her had he not seen the proof of his Lord. And thus [it was] that We should avert from him evil and immorality. Indeed, he was of Our chosen servants.
[12:25]
And they both raced to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back, and they found her husband at the door. She said, "What is the recompense of one who intended evil for your wife but that he be imprisoned or a painful punishment?"

[24:31]
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty;


You also might want to look at this opinion about Wife beating. It explains the issue very well in my opinion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1azySjz4edk&t=9s


Maybe other member might address the other points you raised. But I hope this helps in small way.

Regards,
Ahmad

[good logic]

Peace Sleepysoul.
I agree with you. The way Qoran has been translated by some is embarrassing and oppressive.
GOD s wisdom goes beyond all issues. What God is saying in Qoran needs a lot of pondering and reflection ,.
 
Qoran and Paedophilia, Qoran and slavery, Qoran and homosexuality, Qoran and oppression, Qoran and gender, Qoran and morals, Qoran and different generations, Qoran and…
GOD is very much aware of every generation and its behavioural cycles.  To me Qoran never condemns innocent people.  All God s messages and  Qoran have come as a mercy to all the generations  as a way out of all issues.

Do you think GOD is not aware of slavery, oppression, paedophilia,gender bias… etc through the generations? Do you think that GOD condemns without justice? Do you think that GOD is not aware of the various stages of life of different generations?
Qoran has set a way of life according to GOD s system and offers a way out of other “systems”. Qoran comes to “free” the true believer by “wiping out all his/her issues”.
GOD is forgiver most Merciful to all believers in every generation.
For example, Qoran gave clear instructions about who to marry, yet allowed existing marriages of the time it came to remain intact.
Qoran gave clear instructions about slavery,yet allowed (under certain fair condition)  those who had slaves and encouraged them to free the slaves.  etc…
We, this generation, if we say we believe Qoran,then we need to ponder its way and apply it to ourselves. Qoran encourages freedom.knowledge.justice ,forgiveness, set an example…etc. GOD then does the rest.

,Qoran never ever confirms nonsense and fables!!! Qoran never confirms bias and oppression!!!Qoran never ever confirms “Men s” warped logic/understanding and arrogance!!!!

Sometimes the mind boggles!In the past, Men(some!),yes Men(Some) have interpreted GOD s words , women were too busy being responsible for the home and siblings and doing their duty to GOD,women also trusted men!.  Men took advantage of that and translated GOD s words to suit their big egos and oppress women, weak men other races and children.
What a travesty of justice! Never mind, the game will soon be over. Let them rejoice in their fables and oppression for a bit.
GOD bless all the true believers that are now exposing these “big egos” and false religions .
If you despair of the religion,please do not despair of Qoran. Or at least study it  in detail,then decide.
May the Lord bless you and help you with the issues.
Peace.

[AQL]

.

[Sleepysoul]

Salam,

Thanks to both for replying!

I actually wrote all that despite a few years of looking into such women's issues, and despite reading several of Joseph Islam's articles and others on the internet. With sunnism, my doubts began with the whole "hoori" topic. How men will have many women while women will be stuck with their worldy husbands and will have material things like jewelry and clothes instead.. oh and of course "immense beauty" (to be even more pleasing to her husband?)

Ahmad,
About hoors, I've heard that one from quite a few men (that Allah apparently did not mention women because "women are shy" or something). I've heard Dr Zakir Naik's opinion on this issue and I believe he goes with Mohammad Asad's translation of the word "hoor" which I think Joseph Islam also agrees with. "Hoors" (pure companions) being for both women and men. This makes sense to me.  I have pretty much come to terms with this though and it makes sense that the rewards are for both.
For me, polygamy is something difficult to understand. Even the sunni definition of it makes more sense to me than e.g. the part in Joseph's article which says one can take another wife for beauty. Why? Because many sunnis (despite many not following this) say polygamy is to support widows and such. I don't see (and many others would agree) how marrying many women for beauty and lust contributes to anything good.
There are even women e.g in "liberal" societies that are in relationships with 2 men or simply like two men at the same time or cheat on their boyfriends/have extramarital affairs. I don't think it's as black and white as "men desire more women, woman desires one man". There are also men that have no interest in having more than one wife. We are not all the same.
I'm not saying both should women and men should be allowed to go around marrying many for lust, no, but basing the reasoning for marriage on sexual desire alone doesn't seem reasonable.

[12:23]
And she, in whose house he was, sought to seduce him. She closed the doors and said, "Come, you." He said, "[I seek] the refuge of Allah. Indeed, he is my master, who has made good my residence. Indeed, wrongdoers will not succeed."
12:24]
And she certainly determined [to seduce] him, and he would have inclined to her had he not seen the proof of his Lord. And thus [it was] that We should avert from him evil and immorality. Indeed, he was of Our chosen servants.
[12:25]
And they both raced to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back, and they found her husband at the door. She said, "What is the recompense of one who intended evil for your wife but that he be imprisoned or a painful punishment?"

[24:31]
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty;

Yes, I know of that incident as well. I suppose I was kind of down yesterday. I think I've started feeling tired dealing with these issues..

Maybe other member might address the other points you raised. But I hope this helps in small way.

Thanks for helping!!

,Qoran never ever confirms nonsense and fables!!! Qoran never confirms bias and oppression!!!Qoran never ever confirms “Men s” warped logic/understanding and arrogance!!!!

Sometimes the mind boggles!In the past, Men(some!),yes Men(Some) have interpreted GOD s words , women were too busy being responsible for the home and siblings and doing their duty to GOD,women also trusted men!.  Men took advantage of that and translated GOD s words to suit their big egos and oppress women, weak men other races and children.

Yes, I do believe that many men give Islam a bad image, even today.
And I understand what you're saying. God is not unjust. Perhaps some of these parts that people find confusing are tests, to see what a good person would do in such a situation.

May God bless you both too.

[Sleepysoul]

33:35
"Indeed the Muslim men and the Muslim women, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obedient men and the obedient women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women, and the humble men and the humble women, and the men who give charity and the women who give charity, and the men who fast and the women who fast, and the men who guard their private parts / chastity and the women who guard it, and the men who remember God much and the women who remember - God has prepared for THEM forgiveness and a mighty / great reward."

16:31
Gardens of perpetual residence, which they will enter, beneath which rivers flow. They will have therein whatever they wish. Thus does Allah reward the righteous -

Beautiful verses. :-)

[Sleepysoul]

Though I do have to say that in countries or places where divorcees and widows are still treated badly, there is no proper government support for them and they are suffering then I think if a married man decides to marry such a woman to giver her shelter and rights and the first wife agrees (but come on, how many men refrain if the first wife says no?) AND if it's okay Islamically, then I guess it could work in some cases.
However if a man only wants to marry another woman for lust and the first wife is somehow okay with it.. then I don't even know..

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu 3alykum

Dear Sleepysoul

Not all the time does the laws or the obedience to God in the Quran always need a logical explanation as to why its commanded. Not all the time does it need to fit with what we think is right.

Believers seem to hear and obey (2:85, 3:7). Why do we have to fast? Why is swine forbidden as its been consumed by many people without any harm and actually if one is in need of food God actually allowed it for consumption in cases of starvation.

It is clear from the Quran that Prophet Muhammad had wives. Also God makes it clear that men are permitted if they choose to have multiple wives (4:3). Also its not encouraged nor is it discouraged.

We all have different desires. Some we must try to shun off. With the help of God Insha'Allah He will help.

Although I can only assume as to why God made it permissible for men to have many wives only God knows best.

I can also speculate as to why women are commanded to only having one husband. I can see how much of problems can happen from having multiple husbands. Who would be the father of the children? What about on the womens menstruation? I can go on but it just seems very odd in my opinion.

Also the Quran actually does not permit men to be with women for lust. That completely different from marrying a women for her beauty.

The purpose for marriage is different than lust. One does not marry if he wanted lust. Lust is when one wants to have sexual relations without the responsibilities of being a husband and the responsibilities of marriage.

Lust needs to be controlled as even men or maybe women who desire it want it from not even beautiful women or men only.

Also what bro Joseph was saying from what I understood is that marrying a women for her beauty is not condemned from a Quranic perspective. That beauty is a valid reason to marry a women if she also so willed as there is some people who I've heard that said you cannot marry women because of their beauty alone. However verse 33:52 seems to negate that.

Those are my thoughts

Peace

[Hamzeh]

Salam

Correction

Believers seem to hear and obey (2:85, 3:7). 

Verse 2:285

[Sleepysoul]

I can also speculate as to why women are commanded to only having one husband. I can see how much of problems can happen from having multiple husbands. Who would be the father of the children? What about on the womens menstruation? I can go on but it just seems very odd in my opinion.

Also the Quran actually does not permit men to be with women for lust. That completely different from marrying a women for her beauty.

The purpose for marriage is different than lust. One does not marry if he wanted lust. Lust is when one wants to have sexual relations without the responsibilities of being a husband and the responsibilities of marriage.

Lust needs to be controlled as even men or maybe women who desire it want it from not even beautiful women or men only.

Also what bro Joseph was saying from what I understood is that marrying a women for her beauty is not condemned from a Quranic perspective. That beauty is a valid reason to marry a women if she also so willed as there is some people who I've heard that said you cannot marry women because of their beauty alone. However verse 33:52 seems to negate that.

Those are my thoughts

Peace

You think nowaday one can't find out who the father is?

The bold, you're just repeating what Joseph said in his article. He's fallible just like the rest of us.
Why does that apply to today's men though? It was commanded to the Prophet and it wasn't said in the verse that he can marry for beauty, the verse says he IS NOT allowed to marry anymore even if he finds their beauty pleasing. This was something said to the Prophet, not the rest of the earth's men.

Actually, there are many problems when men marry several women just for "beauty" as well. Rarely (if ever) do you hear of successful polygamous marriages where all parties are fine and happy. Especially so when it comes to educated women. And especially so when a man marries solely because he wants another pretty woman. So why do you think men are allowed to marry more than one? Because "men have a higher sexual desire" is no reason because there are women with high sexual desire as well. Do you acknowledge that there are women as well that would find men other than their husband attractive?
And how many men ask permission from their first wives and how many men when denied this actually don't take a second wife?
How many give each of them their own house, car and all that they need and want? How many spend equal time with them? If they can't be fair, they're not allowed to take more than one anyway, right? But many do it anyway.

I once watched a documentary where they interviewed an Indian village man (don't think he was even Muslim) who had 3 wives. One or two to get the water (they had to go very far to get water and it took them almost the whole day or so) and one to do all the housework. What kind of marriage is that? I know of another man who's had a few marriages in his lifetime but had two wives at the same time at some point, both in different countries, one of whom he did not even visit much.

[Sleepysoul]

The purpose for marriage is different than lust. One does not marry if he wanted lust. Lust is when one wants to have sexual relations without the responsibilities of being a husband and the responsibilities of marriage.


Peace

Of course it's not the purpose of marriage. Have you never heard of those men that go to poor countries, pay someone, do "temporary nikkah" with poor girls just for sex, divorce them and leave?

[good logic]

It is a "man s world"! Some prefer it that way.
Students of Qoran know to follow the "best path " in it:
1-Do to others...
2- One wife/husband to be just.No sex allowed with anyone else.
3-No  oppression.
4-Argue/encourage by what is best.
5-Rights for everyone,like you would want your rights.
6-Stand for what is fair and right as per GOD s best path.
...etc.

The lady is right to question the religion of men.
Shall we just tell her to like it or lump it?
Or shall we expect her to adhere to 7th century ways?
Or shall we keep on following our old generations,grandfathers and fathers?

Lady,I have no excuses for you why the world of religion is the way it is. It seems unfair and oppressive.
All of us need to fight prejudice ,oppression against women,weak men and children.
The way things are in the religion does not look like "following the best path" instructed in Qoran.
Part of the solution needs to start at home by the fathers and the sons of this and future generations.
GOD bless.
Peace.

[Hamzeh]

Peace

You think nowaday one can't find out who the father is?

Yes there is ways to find out who the father is. But that is not the point. A women is the one who bares the child in her womb for 9 month. Can you imagine a women having married multiple men while pregnant?  I do not want to get into details about so many possible explanations as to why I think it would not be right for a women to have more than one husband from a worldly perspective. Although I think such relationships would really be fake and just trying to prove a point.

The bold, you're just repeating what Joseph said in his article. He's fallible just like the rest of us.
Why does that apply to today's men though? It was commanded to the Prophet and it wasn't said in the verse that he can marry for beauty, the verse says he IS NOT allowed to marry anymore even if he finds their beauty pleasing. This was something said to the Prophet, not the rest of the earth's men.

First of all I do not see what he said wrong. Verse 33:52 is asking ONLY the prophet to refrain from marriage after that verse was revealed. Even if a women's beauty had attracted him. Implicitly stating that beauty is a good enough reason to marry a women alone, however this time the Prophet would have needed to refrain from marriage even in that case alone.

The rest of Earth's men are exempt from this restriction as you can see it only applies to the Prophet.

Actually, there are many problems when men marry several women just for "beauty" as well. Rarely (if ever) do you hear of successful polygamous marriages where all parties are fine and happy. Especially so when it comes to educated women. And especially so when a man marries solely because he wants another pretty woman.

You may possibly be correct. However there also possibly many very good relationships out there that are polygamous also very happy and content.

So why do you think men are allowed to marry more than one? Because "men have a higher sexual desire" is no reason because there are women with high sexual desire as well. Do you acknowledge that there are women as well that would find men other than their husband attractive?

Only God knows the reasons why. Like I said I can only assume and speculate the reasons as to why.  I'm not denying that some women have higher sexual desires than men. I do not think that the level of ones sexual desire alone is the reason.

Well of course that there is women who find other than their husbands attractive. This is even portrayed from the wife of the King in the Chapter of Joseph. Some might even find their own husbands not attractive and they are still with them and they live in a good relationship.

Believing men and women all have different kind of desires and they seek God's help with whatever they face. Anything that they find not lawful they try to curtail it and seek God's help.

And how many men ask permission from their first wives and how many men when denied this actually don't take a second wife?
How many give each of them their own house, car and all that they need and want? How many spend equal time with them? If they can't be fair, they're not allowed to take more than one anyway, right? But many do it anyway.

You seem to be suggesting that a man always has the means to provide what you said. It could be possible that a poor man could be married to multiple believing women and they do not have all this and also are treated fairly and justly. The Quran does instruct how to treat wives. Also the Quran verifies that a man who chooses to marry women cannot treat women perfectly equal but must remain just and to spread his time and attention as equal as possible.

In today's world it is not the normal situation for men having multiple wives. But the Quran does cater to all times and different people. God is the creator of both men and women. He knows best to what is right and wrong for both of them.

Some women possibly accept polygamy because of their faith and some cannot seem to understand it and it troubles them. I can understand in a society like today the troubles a women has to go through if this was the case, but I also find their is believing men who restrict themselves from marrying other women for the sole reason not to hurt their wife. I've also heard of women who really don't care and desperately try to involve theirselves in a married man's life but the reason it does not work is the first wife does not accept it or he feels it would give him trouble.

Again the Quran does not encourage or discourage a man from marrying more than one women.

Peace

[Sleepysoul]

Although I think such relationships would really be fake and just trying to prove a point.

That's your opinion.

The rest of Earth's men are exempt from this restriction as you can see it only applies to the Prophet.

Yes, that what I'm saying, that verse applies to the Prophet. So out of the verse you think that beauty applies to all Muslim men but the restriction only applies to the Prophet?

You may possibly be correct. However there also possibly many very good relationships out there that are polygamous also very happy and content.

Examples of such people you've met..

Only God knows the reasons why. Like I said I can only assume and speculate the reasons as to why.  I'm not denying that some women have higher sexual desires than men. I do not think that the level of ones sexual desire alone is the reason.

Well of course that there is women who find other than their husbands attractive. This is even portrayed from the wife of the King in the Chapter of Joseph. Some might even find their own husbands not attractive and they are still with them and they live in a good relationship.

Believing men and women all have different kind of desires and they seek God's help with whatever they face. Anything that they find not lawful they try to curtail it and seek God's help.

I agree with this. Often men act like women are the ones that need "shame" to the point that they make it look like women don't have desires at all..

You seem to be suggesting that a man always has the means to provide what you said. It could be possible that a poor man could be married to multiple believing women and they do not have all this and also are treated fairly and justly. The Quran does instruct how to treat wives. Also the Quran verifies that a man who chooses to marry women cannot treat women perfectly equal but must remain just and to spread his time and attention as equal as possible.

Yeah so if he can't "like" them all equally then what is left? Time, material things and such comforts .. and good treatment.
It is difficult for rich men to be fair so how in the world could a poor man provide and care for multiple?

In today's world it is not the normal situation for men having multiple wives. But the Quran does cater to all times and different people. God is the creator of both men and women. He knows best to what is right and wrong for both of them.

God also knows what hurts us and what doesn't, our likes, dislikes and desires. Also what is deep within our hearts.
I personally believe polygamy should only be practiced in dire circumstances.
I prefer to take such things as only applicable/tests for this world. In the other world, if we make it, we'll all have what we desire. (Not the sunni belief of women being prisoners even in paradise, Astaghfirullah.)

Some women possibly accept polygamy because of their faith and some cannot seem to understand it and it troubles them. I can understand in a society like today the troubles a women has to go through if this was the case, but I also find their is believing men who restrict themselves from marrying other women for the sole reason not to hurt their wife. I've also heard of women who really don't care and desperately try to involve theirselves in a married man's life but the reason it does not work is the first wife does not accept it or he feels it would give him trouble.

Again the Quran does not encourage or discourage a man from marrying more than one women.

That could be. I don't agree with the view that men are "polygamous by nature". There are men that do not want to marry multiple women and just want to be with their wife.

Peace

Forgot to reply before. Walaikumasalaam.

[Sleepysoul]

It is a "man s world"! Some prefer it that way.
Students of Qoran know to follow the "best path " in it:
1-Do to others...
2- One wife/husband to be just.No sex allowed with anyone else.
3-No  oppression.
4-Argue/encourage by what is best.
5-Rights for everyone,like you would want your rights.
6-Stand for what is fair and right as per GOD s best path.
...etc.

The lady is right to question the religion of men.
Shall we just tell her to like it or lump it?
Or shall we expect her to adhere to 7th century ways?
Or shall we keep on following our old generations,grandfathers and fathers?

Lady,I have no excuses for you why the world of religion is the way it is. It seems unfair and oppressive.
All of us need to fight prejudice ,oppression against women,weak men and children.
The way things are in the religion does not look like "following the best path" instructed in Qoran.
Part of the solution needs to start at home by the fathers and the sons of this and future generations.
GOD bless.
Peace.

It's true, many men have distorted things just to suit their own desires. Unsuccessful polygamous marriages are just one problem, there are many other huge issues such as lack of education for women in places, domestic violence, honor killings, acid attacks etc..

Well said, especially that bold part.