Contradiction between 41:9 - 41:12 and 79:27 -79:32?

[shah1info]

Dear Brother Joseph Islam,

Salamun 'Alaikum.

I have read a claim made by a non-Muslim in a YouTube video comment and I pasted that claim below (url: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2n7cEvUvkA);

" Quran is not from God, it contradicts itself and is a WTF book. For example  : In Surah 41:9 - 41:12    First were created the Mountains and the food chain, then Heaven and Stars. But in Surah 79:27 -79:32   First were created Heaven and Stars, then follows the creation of Mountains and food chain.
      
41:9 Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds."
41:10 And He placed on the earth firmly set MOUNTAINS over its surface, and He blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] SUSTENANCE in four days without distinction - for [the information] of those who ask.
41:11 Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."
41:12 And He completed them as seven heavens within two days and inspired in each heaven its command. And We adorned the nearest heaven with lamps and as protection. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
 
79:27 Are you a more difficult creation or is the heaven? Allah constructed it.
79:28 He raised its ceiling and proportioned it.
79:29 And He darkened its night and extracted its brightness.
79:30 And after that He spread the earth.
79:31 He extracted from it its WATER and its PASTURE,
79:32 And the MOUNTAINS He set firmly
79:33 As PROVISION for you and your grazing livestock. "

I have been researching on this claim with an intention to refute it but I am stuck at places. May I ask you to please look into this claim and provide us your thoughtful opinion on it?

Warm regards,

Shah Mohammad

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu 3alykum

In the meantime dear brother Shah Mohammad I will share with you an article of brother Josephs that will maybe help you regarding your inquiry in the area titled "IS THERE ANY QURANIC SUPPORT FOR EVOLUTION?" Insha'Allah.

Verses 41:9-10 should be read together as this sets the theme and the total number of period/days for the complete creation of the Earth.

Verse 41:11-12 elaborate on verse 41:9 which is the first part of the creation, the earth's surface only and extra detail of the heavens.

Verse 41:12 gives further detail that several heavens and their laws were created in the same 2 periods/days in respect to the total of 6 period/days(verse 50:38)

Hope that helps Insha'Allah


Salam

THEORY OF EVOLUTION AND THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/evolution%20FM3.htm

[Athman]

Wa alaikum as salaam,

I think I can part some brief understanding of the subject in question despite it being addressed to Br. Joseph. This is also in respect for his humble perspective in the article shared above by Br. Hamzeh, among other articles/threads. I hope this shall be taken with the sincere intentions it is presented.

In my humble view, if 79:30 is to be taken literally to mean a subsequent event that comes after that of ‘heaven’ in 79:27-29, it can as well be read in tandem with 41:11 which has an implication of the heaven already in a ‘dukhaanun’ (smokeless) form when Allah ‘turned’ to it making it to seven possibly with the earth (65:12)

Br. Ilker states below from a thread as referenced [1] below:

‘In 41:11 ALLAH (swt) talks about the sky above, while it was not yet ready and maybe not completed its final stage, but already there, existing ! While it was smoke ! Then in 41:12 He says He "ordained them seven heavens". This is quite fascinating   ’

Therefore, though 41:9-10 describes the creation and determination of ‘sustenance’ on earth foremost, 41:11 has an implication of an already evolving heaven hence a concurrent creation in situ if not preceding it at all (79:30).

In the whole process of evolutionary creation as described by the Qur’an and as Br. Joseph’s article tries to clarify this, over the 6 epochs, I find it a reasonable approach if a provision for a critical-path-analysis criterion is allowed into trying to understand the whole idea of overlapping events of the evolution of various ‘creations’ and those happening side by side (41:9 with 41:11-12). This is in a view to have in mind that besides the creation of the heavens and the earth together with its sustenance, there’s still the making of various creatures (dabbah) existing in them (42:29) hence their possible subsequent sustenance in their corresponding earth-like habitable celestial bodies (65:12).

The direct mention of ‘our earth’ as appears in many of those Qur’anic references and as frequently attached to the ‘heavens’ in general, not singling each earth-like celestial body as reference or rather collectively ‘earths,’ would in my opinion, owe to the fact that the primary audience of the verses/Qur’an are on ‘this earth.’ Thus, a primary attention drawn to what primarily surrounds one, of the immediate world (‘our earth’) is arguably most convenient. On the other hand, it’s unwarranted to argue for an expectation of furnishing details of how sustenance was determined in those other earth-like celestial bodies or rather for those other 'dabba' in 42:29, as well as would be an unwarranted interpretation to restrict that period of determination of sustenance described in 41:10 (4 eons) to just simply be attributed to ‘our earth.’ Rather, ‘the earth’ as a primary reference with the heavens was created in 2 eons as well as the sustenance and the ‘rest’ in 'the earth' and the other earth-like celestial bodies was determined in 4 eons.

In my humble opinion, in the evolutionary creation, various overlapping events do exist and thus the ‘decree’ for the start of one of them would not necessarily be after the end of another, regardless of the eons taken, rather some simultaneous overlapping ‘parts’ would arguably be in situ.

Hopefully that helps in some way, God willing.

And Allah knows best.


References:

[1]. What was created first the heavens or earth 79:30
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2080.msg10667#msg10667

[shah1info]

Brother Athman/ Brother Hamzeh,

Salamun 'Alaikum.

Thanks to both of you for your help in answering this puzzling issue. In the meantime, along with the reading of brother Joseph Islams article, I have read many articles on this issue written by a number of faithful persons and together I came up with the followings;
...
As a presumptive skeptics of Quran, that individual have argued that because verse 041:009 begin with a general description of the earth followed by verses 041:010 which elaborate the creation of the earth in verses 041:009 that a sequential series of events is being established and thus verses 041:011 and 041:012 follow the sequence. We shall see how this statement falls flat on its face in light of all the evidence!

First, The Ayah 41:009-41:010 appears to be in a sequential order. In the ayah 41:9 Allah is questioning us if we indeed disbelieve in his ability to create the earth in two days and if we attribute any other entities equal to him, while giving us a description of the creation of earth. In the ayah 41:10, He gave a more detailed description of the creation of mountains and creature on earth that took a total of four days. Wait it gets better, the Quran did not intend for these verses to be interpreted sequentially because if one does the math the periods add up to eight and not six (2+4+2), thus, rendering these verses a mere description of non-sequential overlapping events. Surely, Allah could count to six. Hence, because we have overlapping events we must take this into account when we try to put together an account (see below) of the creation process. The Quran does not lay down a definitive sequence of events in 41:9-12 or any other place in the Quran. For example, it does not say First he did this, Second he did this, Third he did this, Fourth he did this, Fifth he did this, and Sixth he did this, giving us the total of the 6 periods of creation mentioned in many places in the Quran (7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59, 32:4, 57:4, 50:38). Incidentally, each time we are told that creation is completed in six periods the word heaven always precedes the word earth.

Second, it is interesting to note that Surah 41:9-12 is probably the most descriptive Surah with regard to the creation of the Universe. However, the statement that creation was completed in 6 periods is never reiterated at the beginning of 41:9-12 or any other place in this chapter. Consequently, the statement appears seven times in the Quran, thus suggesting that these verses were not intended to be viewed as A COMPLETE SEQUENTIAL ACCOUNT (see below) of creation. If it were, one would expect the statement to appear again at the beginning of verse nine or at the very least somewhere in the chapter, but it doesn’t; you wonder why?

Third, the translation of the Ayah 41:009-41:010 as given above, started with the word “Then”, an incorrect translation of the Arabic word “Thumma”. In the given context it should rather be “So” or “And” or "Moreover". So, the Ayah 41:009-41:010 is not sequenced to the Ayah 41:011-41:012. In the Ayah 41:011 Allah directed Himself to BOTH the heaven and the earth asking BOTH of them to come into being. Here in this ayah the creation of the heaven and the earth is in a sequential order.

Fourth, the earth could not possibly be the first thing created in the sequence because 79:27-30 states that in no uncertain terms beyond a shadow of a doubt that Allah created the heavens before the earth. Hence, these verses are not a sequential account of the 6 periods of creation and thus must be viewed both jointly and severally in relation to the whole Quranic account of creation. The word "Then" in verses 2:29 and 41:11 is "Thumma" again comes into play in these verses; it can mean "And" or "Also" or "Moreover." Many translators of the Quran incorrectly use the word "Then". The sentence structure clearly breaks and the facts are separate accounts. So, we can conclude that there is no contradiction between 41:9 - 41:12 and 79:27 -79:32.

...

Though not quite contented with the above explanations, at this moment I have some satisfaction with it. May ALLAH (swt) guide all of us.

I would highly appreciate any comments, feedback on it.

Best regards,

[Athman]

Wa alaikumus salam,

Dear Br. shah1info,

Welcome to the forum!

Kindly ‘see’ my comments in italics to your sentiments in red highlights.

‘Thanks to both of you for your help in answering this puzzling issue. In the meantime, along with the reading of brother Joseph Islams article, I have read many articles on this issue written by a number of faithful persons and together I came up with the followings;’

Welcome. Thanks for taking your time to go through Br. Joseph’s article which stands as just a detailed summary of his views on the topic, and not as a specific ‘response’ to the focus of your inquiry. Hopefully you also found some other article(s)/thread(s) on this website that discuss the overall subject in some other respects. I also appreciate your reading of the above two responses from Br. Hamzeh and myself and that you took your time to reference various articles from others as well. That’s really commendable. I hope caution is taken when doing so to ‘filter’ and ‘discern’ from the arguments advanced those points that source primary evidence from the Qur’an and remain consistent as most cogent.

...
As a presumptive skeptics of Quran, that individual have argued that because verse 041:009 begin with a general description of the earth followed by verses 041:010 which elaborate the creation of the earth in verses 041:009 that a sequential series of events is being established and thus verses 041:011 and 041:012 follow the sequence. We shall see how this statement falls flat on its face in light of all the evidence!

Sure, as you may appreciate, sequence of ‘ayat’ does not necessarily translate to equivalent sequence of themes, addresses, contexts, or plot in a particular narrative or discourse of the Qur’an. Some alternate or reciprocating shifts of themes and addresses may be encountered in certain narratives, by which certain points are meant to be underscored.

First, The Ayah 41:009-41:010 appears to be in a sequential order. In the ayah 41:9 Allah is questioning us if we indeed disbelieve in his ability to create the earth in two days and if we attribute any other entities equal to him, while giving us a description of the creation of earth. In the ayah 41:10, He gave a more detailed description of the creation of mountains and creature on earth that took a total of four days. Wait it gets better, the Quran did not intend for these verses to be interpreted sequentially because if one does the math the periods add up to eight and not six (2+4+2), thus, rendering these verses a mere description of non-sequential overlapping events. Surely, Allah could count to six. Hence, because we have overlapping events we must take this into account when we try to put together an account (see below) of the creation process. The Quran does not lay down a definitive sequence of events in 41:9-12 or any other place in the Quran. For example, it does not say First he did this, Second he did this, Third he did this, Fourth he did this, Fifth he did this, and Sixth he did this, giving us the total of the 6 periods of creation mentioned in many places in the Quran (7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59, 32:4, 57:4, 50:38). Incidentally, each time we are told that creation is completed in six periods the word heaven always precedes the word earth.

I think I concur with the issue of sequence of events. In my view, with regards the precedence of mention of creation of earth in 41:9, and its ‘subsequent’ surface of depicted ‘stabilizers’ (rawasiyah) and the ‘provisions’ (aqwaataha) in 41:10, one may need to consider the Sovereignty and Supremacy of Allah over ‘everything (rabbul ‘alamin),’ onto which the verse (41:9) tends to draw attention.
The focus is intentionally drawn to the immediate ‘world’ (our earth), more so, the ‘mountains’ and general ‘sustenance,’ of which the 7th century Arabian audience could immediately appreciate and relate to. Then, for the ‘sky,’ in addition to making ‘seven’ of heavens and ordaining their affairs, the focus is drawn to the immediately ‘visible’ sky (lowest heaven-‘samaa dun’ya’) and how it is decked with ‘maswaabiha’ and as a ‘protection’! It is thus clear what the verses tend to focus on, confounding the disbelievers with great clear signs that none would deny and how incomparable the Originator of those signs would be! The immediate undeniable clear examples are given precedence of mention. After all, not ‘everything’ of creation is mentioned in those six ‘days’ of those verses (chapter 41), including ‘dabba.’

On the other hand, in 79:27, focus is drawn as to how the ‘complexity’ of creation of ‘heaven’ is by far greater than that of ‘man.’ In this case, ‘heaven’ thus takes precedence of mention. Some detail is given ‘after’ which the earth is said to be ‘spread.’
Therefore, in my opinion, the precedence of mentioning creation of either of ‘earth’ or ‘heaven’ has to be understood as an emphasis/focus to an underlying message/reminder to the audience, and not necessarily sanctioning order or plot of events.


Second, it is interesting to note that Surah 41:9-12 is probably the most descriptive Surah with regard to the creation of the Universe. However, the statement that creation was completed in 6 periods is never reiterated at the beginning of 41:9-12 or any other place in this chapter. Consequently, the statement appears seven times in the Quran, thus suggesting that these verses were not intended to be viewed as A COMPLETE SEQUENTIAL ACCOUNT (see below) of creation. If it were, one would expect the statement to appear again at the beginning of verse nine or at the very least somewhere in the chapter, but it doesn’t; you wonder why?

I do concur.

Third, the translation of the Ayah 41:009-41:010 as given above, started with the word “Then”, an incorrect translation of the Arabic word “Thumma”. In the given context it should rather be “So” or “And” or "Moreover". So, the Ayah 41:009-41:010 is not sequenced to the Ayah 41:011-41:012. In the Ayah 41:011 Allah directed Himself to BOTH the heaven and the earth asking BOTH of them to come into being. Here in this ayah the creation of the heaven and the earth is in a sequential order.


Again,‘In my humble view, if 79:30 is to be taken literally to mean a subsequent event that comes after that of ‘heaven’ in 79:27-29, it can as well be read in tandem with 41:11 which has an implication of the heaven already in a ‘dukhaanun’ (smokeless) form when Allah ‘turned’ to it making it to seven possibly with the earth (65:12)’ Otherwise, ‘spread earth’ (dahaha) would possibly refer to the preparation (‘spreading’ ready)  of the earth’s ‘surface’ and for ‘stabilizers (rawasiyah)’ and ‘sustenance,’ making it a subsequent stage in creation, hence the ‘earth’ already in an evolutionary process and not necessarily starting ‘after’ heaven. The preparation (‘spreading’) being the subsequent event while the ‘earth’ itself evolving simultaneously with the ‘heaven’ (41:11, 65:12).

Fourth, the earth could not possibly be the first thing created in the sequence because 79:27-30 states that in no uncertain terms beyond a shadow of a doubt that Allah created the heavens before the earth. Hence, these verses are not a sequential account of the 6 periods of creation and thus must be viewed both jointly and severally in relation to the whole Quranic account of creation. The word "Then" in verses 2:29 and 41:11 is "Thumma" again comes into play in these verses; it can mean "And" or "Also" or "Moreover." Many translators of the Quran incorrectly use the word "Then". The sentence structure clearly breaks and the facts are separate accounts. So, we can conclude that there is no contradiction between 41:9 - 41:12 and 79:27 -79:32.

Again, in 2:29, focus is drawn to whatever is created for ‘man,’ hence in this case, the immediate ‘earth’ in which we live finds precedence of mention over heaven(s), also supported by the reminder to the narrative of Adam being sent on ‘earth,’ in the next verses. All these, as a series of reminders. On the other hand, as regards whether the ‘heaven’ was created before the earth (79:30) or whether both evolved simultaneously (41:11, 65:12), my view is as shared above.

...

Though not quite contented with the above explanations, at this moment I have some satisfaction with it. May ALLAH (swt) guide all of us.

I would highly appreciate any comments, feedback on it.

Best regards,

And Allah knows best.


Regards,

Athman.