Fast till sunset or darkness

[miracle114]

Salaam all
I have read brother Joseph's post and I was happy with the analysis and found that contextually "layl" fitted what I believe is 81 odd verses with darkness which is a period af (somewhere) after sunset.
However recently I read somewhere that verse 91:4 is the definition of "layl" .
91:4 " by the night as it conceals it" the it here is the sun because the of the feminine "it" used in the Arabic. Therefore night is that part which coves the sun. I. E sunset
Would like to here your thoughts.

Kind regards

[niaz]

Salaam,

I agree. لَيْلَ begins at sunset, when the sun becomes concealed (as confirmed by 91:4 and 92:1).

The Arabic calendar day (يَوْمَ) begins at sunset, and ends at sunset. يَوْمَ begins with لَيْلَ, followed by نهار. So  لَيْلَ begins at sunset, and نهار ends at sunset.

نهار begins when the sun's brightness is revealed (91:3, 92:2), i.e., at the crack of dawn. From 2:187, it is the time when the first streaks  of light ('white lines') become visible at dawn. And then we fast through نهار, until it ends and لَيْلَ begins, at sunset. We fast during نهار and can eat during  لَيْلَ.

Peace

[niaz]

Also, 11:114 becomes clear based on this understanding of لَيْلَ and نهار.

   And observe the contact prayer at both ends of the daylight, and early part of the night.

Both ends of نهار are the times before sunrise and before sunset.

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu 3alykum

Dear brother Niaz

Your comments are truly appreciated. However I kindly dont agree with this comment and I think you would agree after reading the article below.

You said

The Arabic calendar day (يَوْمَ) begins at sunset, and ends at sunset. يَوْمَ begins with لَيْلَ, followed by نهار. So  لَيْلَ begins at sunset, and نهار ends at sunset.

Secondly one may argue that the two end of the daylight is fajr(dawn) and isha(the end of daylight well past sunset) and not before or at sunset because the light of the sky at that point is still considerably large and over covers most of the sky even though the sun has set.

Peace

When does a new day begin?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1338.0

[Hamzeh]

Peace

Another point I would like to comment on is regarding verse 91:4

91:4 " By the night as it conceals it"

This could be a reference to the brightness(illumination) of the sun referred to in verse 91:1 and not the concealing of the sun itself.

Allah(swt) knows best.

I'd do think there is very strong evidence that night begins or approaches shortly after sunset and not when the sun has set.

Salam

FASTING IS PRESCRIBED UNTIL NIGHT NOT SUNSET
http://quransmessage.com/articles/fasting%20till%20night%20FM3.htm

[niaz]

Wa alaikum salaam Hamzeh,

Thanks for sharing. I do not agree. It is an established historical fact that in Arabic and Hebrew, the calendar day yaum / yom [יום / يوم] lasts from sunset to sunset. This is an intrinsic part of Semitic tradition that predated the Quran. To deny this, necessitates believing that Arabs and Jews and Muslims spread out across the world somehow collaborated with each other to invent such a tradition after the time of the revelation of the Quran. Which to me is too incredulous a conspiracy theory.

And I do not find the 8 examples listed in the article as providing any support for this theory. On the contrary, I find it supporting yaum starting with layl.

• examples 7,8 - referencing 2:187 - is the best support that yaum starts with layl. The verse describes what we do during layl (eating), followed by what we do during nahar (fasting), thus completing one yaum of the fasting day.
• Examples 1,2,4 are in terms of our sleep-cycle or wakeful hours (fajr to 'isha, just like 24:58), and not related to the 24-hour yaum, or layl or nahar.
• example 3 is not related to the definition of yaum (i.e., whether layl comes first or not). But it actually supports layl starting with sunset, as we discussed here. I do not agree that هَا in 91:4 is describing that 'brightness' is concealed. The most visual experience we have is of the sun being concealed, and this is the event described over and over in the Quran.
• example 5 - It took me some time to wrap my head around this one. The article did not consider the case of the wind starting during daylight hours, but yaum starting with layl (i.e., picture 2, with a leading partial day instead of a trailing one). That will also be 7 nights and 8 days.
• example 6 - 97:5 - tells us that layl ends at fajr. (Which is consistent with 91:3, 92:2). It does not say that yaum starts at fajr.

In summary, there are only 2 verses from these examples that really refer to yaum - 2:187 and 69:7. 2:187 clearly supports layl first. 69:7 is inconclusive either way.

And I do not agree that such over-analysis built on the many "implies" is necessary. Nor that a conspiracy theory is warranted in this case. Quran is a clear and simple book, whatever is true will be evident and obvious.

And a note on 6:76. Venus is the third brightest object in our sky, with a magnification of -4, which is very bright. When an "evening star", it is visible to the naked eye even before sunset, and also visible just after sunset. Especially when it is higher up in the sky as it is at this part of the year.

Peace

[niaz]

I'd do think there is very strong evidence that night begins or approaches shortly after sunset and not when the sun has set.

I'll focus on the two words - shortly after. Everybody agrees that night begins after sunset. So the question is how shortly is the "shortly". I agree with the article that "emergence of night as a gradual process which begins before total darkness". I believe (based on 91:4, 92:1, 2:187 and the historical pre-Quranic meaning of the arabic yaum and layl) that this "gradual process" has begun just (the minute) after the sun has set. And that daylight ends before sunset. Sunset is the event that separates the two durations of time.

The article appears to define "shortly" as "when stars / planets begin to appear but well before total darkness", specifically mentioning visibility of Venus. If this is the definition of "shortly", I agree with this definition too. Planets like Venus and Jupiter (magnification -4 and -2.5 respectively) are bright enough to be seen with the naked eye even before sunset.

So please share your definition of "shortly". Is it 1 minute? 2 minutes? 5 minutes? 30 minutes? And what do you base it on?

Peace.

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu 3alykum

It is an established historical fact that in Arabic and Hebrew, the calendar day yaum / yom [יום / يوم] lasts from sunset to sunset.

Yes I agree. But as the article illustrated the historical view on when the day begins does not seem to concur with how the Quran perceives when the day begins. Its not a big issue but as can be seen from the article with some academic research of the Quran one was able to see the way of how the Quran views when the day begins. I found this pretty amazing Masha'Allah.

This is an intrinsic part of Semitic tradition that predated the Quran

Possibly so. But that does not tell us much about how God views the day.

One important note that is mentioned in the article is that a 24 hour count can begin at any time of the day. This is absolutely true. Its just a relative point where any agreed community can start from and go from there. But whatever any community decides does not mean it is right or wrong.

We are just discussing how God views the day according to the Quran.

Similarly God views that there are 12 month in a year. Of course humans if they wished could of set a 20 month system. But in God's register/measure He measures it on a 12 month system.

To deny this, necessitates believing that Arabs and Jews and Muslims spread out across the world somehow collaborated with each other to invent such a tradition after the time of the revelation of the Quran. Which to me is too incredulous a conspiracy theory.

No this does not mean that they spread out across the world and somehow collaborated with each other to invent that tradition. It could simply of been in-situ before the Quran's appearance by the Jewish community and the Arab world could of adopted it. It does not mean its right or wrong. But that does not mean the Jewish community was following what God viewed the day to be commencing at. That way their ways and this just shows that the Arabs/Muslims were either not concerned with how God viewed the day or the topic did not come to light. God knows best.

examples 7,8 - referencing 2:187 - is the best support that yaum starts with layl. The verse describes what we do during layl (eating), followed by what we do during nahar (fasting), thus completing one yaum of the fasting day.

The night of the fast "laylata assiyam" means there needs to be a fast followed by a night and not a night followed a fast. I cannot wrap my head around it any other way. So my explanation is based of that understanding.

If we were to accept the traditional understating of a new day beginning at sunset(magrib) which is allegedly night(layl) then the phrase "laylata assiyam" (the night of the fast) would be somewhat problematic with the days of Ramadan because the night of the first fast would be entered into the second day of Ramadan. There was no fast followed by night in one full Ramadan day(yaum) if the day of Ramadan begins at night.

So in other words according to the traditional view first day of Ramadan begins at sunset(night) which is before the fast, then at dawn fasting begins which seems to be somewhere in the middle of the day, then not till sunset which is day two of Ramadan is when the relationship between spouses are permitted which is after the first fast.

I do not agree that هَا in 91:4 is describing that 'brightness' is concealed. The most visual experience we have is of the sun being concealed, and this is the event described over and over in the Quran.

What seems to conceal the sun is the horizon. As the sun moves down below the horizon it is no longer seen. But the brightness in the sky still seems to be there. The brightness of the sun even at its setting(magrib) still seems to cast its light to the other side of the horizon in the east.

The night over takes this brightness slowly very soon after the sun goes down. Its a matter of when one starts seeing that darkness that has started to appear somewhere in the sky. If there is no change right at sunset from the very moment before complete sunset in the colour and appearance in the sky then night has not yet begun. Not until something noticeable has begun to happen in the skies colour or appearance till the night begins in my humble opinion. Possibly due to the shadow of the earth in the sky or the disappearance of the suns light or brightness that illuminates.

The opposite starts to happen at dawn. The sun is still well below the horizon but its light starts to casts slowly over the sky till at one point night is no longer visible and daylight has taken over. This could still be before the sun has risen.

Where I live the difference in appearance seems to be 20 to 30 minutes.

example 5 - It took me some time to wrap my head around this one. The article did not consider the case of the wind starting during daylight hours, but yaum starting with layl (i.e., picture 2, with a leading partial day instead of a trailing one). That will also be 7 nights and 8 days.

The eight days mentioned in the verse is a complete 1 day cycle. You have to pick 1 point to start and end from.

If you start from dawn to dawn as a complete day (ayyamin), you get 1 night time in the middle of that day cycle. So the 8th day would be officially a day but punishment stoped before the night.

If you start from night(or sunset which is considered night traditionally) to night to be considered a complete day(ayammin), you get 1 day time cycle but 2 nights.

Hope you understand that position. Its not about daylight its about how one defines a day(ayyamin) from what start and what end and how many nights are in that cycle.

For example if one was to say a day starts at dawn and ends at noon that is considered one day(ayyamin). There would be no nights in that. Of course it won't make sense but just trying to give you the idea of whats going on.

And I do not agree that such over-analysis built on the many "implies" is necessary. Nor that a conspiracy theory is warranted in this case. Quran is a clear and simple book, whatever is true will be evident and obvious.

I don't think anyone has said any of this has been done on purpose or has been conspired in anyway. There just seems to be a different view from what the Quran recognizes.

The Quran also seems to be lenient on different systems. Take this for example,

18:25 "And they remained in their cave three hundred years and (some) add (another) nine."

Here we see that some people were adding the time as 300 years and some as 309 years. So in other words it might not be such a big issue as said before a 24hr or even 50 hr clock can start at any time but we are just focusing on how the correct system in God's perspective is viewed. Ultimately my concern is about if we should be fasting at sunset or till night. This does not have anything to do when the day begins

So please share your definition of "shortly". Is it 1 minute? 2 minutes? 5 minutes? 30 minutes? And what do you base it on?

The verse commands us to "thumma atimmoo assiyama ila allayli" and complete the fast till the night. Despite the different appearance in the sky in different zones of the earth, I wait till I notice a difference in the sky light and wait to see if any of the night or darkness starts to appear even a little indicates night approached or begun. I do not notice this till about 20 to 30 min. I also noticed that different seasons or months have differences. Some month show darkness appearing 10 minutes after the sunset if my memory serves me right.

Tthe other reason I support this view is that the magrib prayer and the ending of the fast are commanded in different terminology.

Because of that I find they have different times and arguably if they were expected to be done both at sunset, one may expect a detail on what is to be performed first, do we eat first, or do we pray first.

If I found the command of magrib prayer and ending the fast to be worded closely and yet the Quran did not detail what to perform first I would say then that would be an option and a tradition on what suits the people best. But that is not the case as the two requirements are worded differently on when to be performed.

I find this proves the Quran's veracity and details to be even more accepting.

At the end ones best approach are expected towards their duties.

Thanks for sharing your comments as well

Salam

[Hamzeh]

Peace

I gave this comment some more thought:

example 5 - It took me some time to wrap my head around this one. The article did not consider the case of the wind starting during daylight hours, but yaum starting with layl (i.e., picture 2, with a leading partial day instead of a trailing one). That will also be 7 nights and 8 days.

Please omit my previous comments as I am still trying to figure this out and there does seem some support for your reasoning as well.

At the same time I find there is a problem because if we take the punishment to start at the daylight hours but the day to start at night then yes it does seems there will be only seven nights but the punishment had ended on the 9th day of traditional system(day starting with night).

God knows best.

Salam

[niaz]

Salaam Hamzeh,

I (strongly) disagree with this method of 'research' as you refer to it. It gets into the weeds pretty quickly, before contradictions and personal speculation can start dominating over any understanding that is gleaned from the Quran. I'll go into this later.

Since you seem to have extracted a ruling out of this exercise, I want to probe that briefly, to understand the practical utility of this ruling, and how it could be acted upon in our lives.

Despite the different appearance in the sky in different zones of the earth, I wait till I notice a difference in the sky light and wait to see if any of the night or darkness starts to appear even a little indicates night approached or begun. I do not notice this till about 20 to 30 min. I also noticed that different seasons or months have differences. Some month show darkness appearing 10 minutes after the sunset if my memory serves me right.

Thanks for the definition of "shortly". To me, "wait to see if any of the night or darkness starts to appear even a little" sounds good, except that it appears highly subjective, especially considering it is sometimes 10 minutes, or 20 minutes, or even 30 minutes even by your judgement. Unfortunately, I cannot call you to where I live to decide for me whether you see "even a little darkness" in the sky. So I have these questions ....

• How do you decide when it is time to break the fast? Do you stand outside looking at the sky, and come back into the house to eat when you are convinced there is "even a little darkness"?
• What about when you are breaking the fast as a group? Is one person nominated to decide? Or if at least one person in the group in the is convinced "any darkness" has started? Or you wait until everybody is convinced there is "little darkness"?
• Why do you think your definition/ruling does not contradict the conclusion in the article (quoted below) about when it is already night ... since planets are visible the minute after sunset and you don't need to wait 30 minutes or 20 minutes or even 10 minutes?

  when stars / planets begin to appear but well before total darkness...
• For me, there is only one "turn off the light" moment - sunset itself - when there is a sudden and instantaneous onset of darkness.  After that moment, the "growth of darkness" is a very gradual process, and no one moment is unique enough to pick out. What if I decide there is enough "even a little darkness" just after the glowing disk of the sun has disappeared? Especially if I can see Venus and Jupiter in the sky with naked eyes? Will I be breaking the fast prematurely or will God not accept my fast, according to your ruling?

I am asking these questions, because right now I google sunset time, and add a minute for rounding errors, and break the fast and it is simple and straightforward. Just wondering how you reconcile these uncertainties.

Peace.

[miracle114]

Salaam Brothers Hamzeh and niaz
Jzk for the lengthy replies. I have not had time to read and digest them but rest assured I will have a detailed look. 
Really do appreciate your both time and input.

Kind regards

[Hamzeh]

Wa 3alykum assalam NIaz

My replies to your comments below

I (strongly) disagree with this method of 'research' as you refer to it. It gets into the weeds pretty quickly, before contradictions and personal speculation can start dominating over any understanding that is gleaned from the Quran. I'll go into this later.

Not sure if I understand what you mean but I'll see if I can comment or add to your input.

Lots of the times I assume research on certain topics don't just come out of nowhere. There is reasons behind it. For example their is differences in muslim communities in when they break their fast. As you know the shia sect has seem to capture a different understanding of the sunni sect when breaking their fast. Would it be wrong to see what has happened and why the differences? Where does one get the answers from? How can one pick a side?

Is there any guidance from the Quran that can be extracted for this specific topic? Masha'Allah there is those who study the Quran who seem to show evidence that even small topic like this have their correct answers from the Quran. Little did we know. It really does amaze me, when I see how the Quran deals with future problems that possibly did not exist before. It is like hidden wisdom between verses and stories that shed the answers for the differences that have developed over time.

Since you seem to have extracted a ruling out of this exercise, I want to probe that briefly, to understand the practical utility of this ruling, and how it could be acted upon in our lives.

Just to let you know and I'm sure you know this, but breaking fast at magrib is not agreed upon by all the sects in Islam today. I am not picking sides or trying to make a new ruling, but it came to me that the Quran has its own stance and seems to differ from both main sects. This does not seem to be uncommon to me anymore. So I actually am not to surprised that a totally different perspective can arise for different religious topics.

Thanks for the definition of "shortly". To me, "wait to see if any of the night or darkness starts to appear even a little" sounds good, except that it appears highly subjective, especially considering it is sometimes 10 minutes, or 20 minutes, or even 30 minutes even by your judgement.

The Quran does seem to give warrant to observe and sight the times of prayers and look for the new moons and so on. Especially as everyday differs from another day and the timing of prayers and breaking the fast changes. What did people do when they had no instruments of technology for the dhuhur and asr prayer? How could of they determined the times without looking at the sky? I don't think it was intended to be an exact time but a close time would be sufficient Insha'Allah. I find when God commands us to "complete the fast till night" one does need to use both reasoning and best intention to come to a solution to the command. This may very well be subjective but when everyone else does not seem to accept this interpretation one is forced into taking actions into his own hands.

How do you decide when it is time to break the fast? Do you stand outside looking at the sky, and come back into the house to eat when you are convinced there is "even a little darkness"?

To be honest their is times where I do, just to double check that I am standing on the side of caution. But once you get the first day covered then the other days become similar and one can set an approximation and possibly add a few minutes and make that a tradition in a house hold.

What about when you are breaking the fast as a group? Is one person nominated to decide? Or if at least one person in the group in the is convinced "any darkness" has started? Or you wait until everybody is convinced there is "little darkness"?

its pretty simple for me. I shared the information with those who around me and those who were willing to hear some accepted and some did not.

Those that agree with this opinion we set a bar or a relative point from after sunset and at least after the magrib prayer and break the fast then. Its not as complicated.

Also as times goes by one starts to understand and realize with who and where to break fast if people are in disagreement.

With those that agree with the night method may develop into a way of life and be adopted and spread.

I can also ask you a similar question, as to how does one go around about praying the magrib? Does one eat first or pray first? Who makes the ruling or is there a nominee to decide? The Quran does not seem to give guidance on that part. So in other words making a sunna/tradition/practice of something if the traditional concept is true is not prohibited. One does need to reason and be subjective at the same time.

There also seems to be some tradition involved in this method where it has been agreed that break the fast with for example dates, yogurt or water and then pray. So in this way the prayer is compromised first by the eating of the food by possibly a few minutes or so and some may eat first and pray later.

Why do you think your definition/ruling does not contradict the conclusion in the article (quoted below) about when it is already night ... since planets are visible the minute after sunset and you don't need to wait 30 minutes or 20 minutes or even 10 minutes?

The article has indicated that in the verse regarding prophet Abraham the word "The Arabic word 'kawkab'an' which in its indefinite form (as in 6:76) is used to imply a star or stars (12:4)" and not a planet. However in its "but in its definite form (al-kawkab) is also used to describe Venus which is an early twilight planet."

I do not see any stars in the sky after one minute the sunsets.

I set a relative point of time from sunset the first day of Ramadan and go from there as the sunset in Ramadan also changes a minute or two everyday as well. I don't change it everyday from 10, 20, or 30 minutes. I meant to say that from year to year I noticed darkness starts to appear anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes.

For me, there is only one "turn off the light" moment - sunset itself - when there is a sudden and instantaneous onset of darkness.  After that moment, the "growth of darkness" is a very gradual process, and no one moment is unique enough to pick out.

That also seems to be a logical perspective. It may very well be night starts with the sunset. However I just choose to stay on the side of caution for the reasons listed in the article. Because magrib prayer is also commanded at sunset but commanded in different terminology and seems to be different than night. I would not condemn fasting till sunset but I myself do not feel satisfied as I feel I need to stay on that side where I am more safe because I myself have to admit the Quran seems to support a appearance of night by the word "layl" and could of used the term "sunset".

I also would like to say that I would not make a ruling but I also would welcome my family and close ones to fast till night as to stay on the side of caution and make it a way of life. Therefore if it was sunset we would be covering that command and if it was night we would be covering that command as well.

What if I decide there is enough "even a little darkness" just after the glowing disk of the sun has disappeared? Especially if I can see Venus and Jupiter in the sky with naked eyes? Will I be breaking the fast prematurely or will God not accept my fast, according to your ruling?

The phrase "complete your fast till the night" "ila layl" I find it means "to the approach of the night" and not when night has taken over. I understand the word "hatta" is used to mean "until". But verse 2:187 uses "ila". So there seems to be a difference between "ila" and "hatta".

I am not convinced that Venus or Jupiter or the stars are indictors of the night being started or not. I just feel that night is not synonymous with sunset.

So I myself cannot break the fast at sunset for reasons that may not be based on actual science but more on the wording and how to Quran differentiates between the magrib prayer and the breaking of the fast.

Also I would imagine myself in the days the Quran was being revealed, how would I of understood "ila layl"? Would I have had an understanding of a word that would mean "sunset" (ghurub shams). The articles shows that sunset was a word well know.

At the end God knows best.

Asalamu 3alykum  and your welcome Miracle114

[Duster]

• For me, there is only one "turn off the light" moment - sunset itself - when there is a sudden and instantaneous onset of darkness.  After that moment, the "growth of darkness" is a very gradual process, and no one moment is unique enough to pick out. What if I decide there is enough "even a little darkness" just after the glowing disk of the sun has disappeared? Especially if I can see Venus and Jupiter in the sky with naked eyes? Will I be breaking the fast prematurely or will God not accept my fast, according to your ruling?

Shalom / peace ....
So I'm curious ....
What is your 'turn on the light moment ' then? The fast starts with the perception of the sky ....doesn't appear to be an exact science there so why should determining night be???

[niaz]

Salaam Hamzeh,

Thanks for sharing how you decide how to break the fast. That is exactly what I was asking.

I can fully understand if you feel like you are erring on the side of caution, and feel comfortable with deciding to break your fast ("shortly") later than earlier, and have a personal rule of thumb for yourself to determine that time. I was just checking if there is some objective rule that you are following that would be violated by breaking the fast just after sunset. You have acknowledged that it is not the case, and that it is also logical perspective, although you are not personally convinced about doing so yourself. Which is fair enough.

The problem I see is when this is pushed as a ruling, especially when it is all based on personal speculation (more to follow on that). If you were not proposing such a ruling, sorry for the misunderstanding.

And I am not asking to pick a side in sectarian opinions. Those opinions by their own admission, are based on the rulings of imams and fuqaha, which often overrule the Quran. So the sectarian divide is irrelevant. But I do say pick the side of default/original meanings/usage of words, especially if there is no sectarian disagreement on that (e.g., yaum).

Also I would imagine myself in the days the Quran was being revealed, how would I of understood "ila layl"? Would I have had an understanding of a word that would mean "sunset" (ghurub shams).

Thats a good question ... if you knew from knowledge of the language that yaum started at sunset, and started with layl first, how would you have understood? Note that you would not have the benefit of internet articles that told you that what you knew then was wrong. I appreciate the initial intrigue on God's choice of words, in His Infinite Wisdom. But I chose to move beyond the intrigue when I realize that layl immediately follows ghurub shams; without going through multiple hoops to try to create some distinction, "even a little".

In a follow up post, I will elaborate on my reservations with the method of understanding this issue itself, and what I see are speculations/inconsistencies, insha allah.

What is your 'turn on the light moment ' then? The fast starts with the perception of the sky ....doesn't appear to be an exact science there so why should determining night be???

Duster, the 'turn on the light moment' is the first ray ("thread") of scattered daylight ... which science defines as the start of 'astronomical twilight' (sun 18 degrees below the horizon). I did not say it is not a perception in the sky. I was asking for how the perception is defined/described.

miracle114, I am not a fan of long articles or explanations myself ... sorry it could not be more condensed.

Peace.

[Duster]

Duster, the 'turn on the light moment' is the first ray ("thread") of scattered daylight ... which science defines as the start of 'astronomical twilight' (sun 18 degrees below the horizon). I did not say it is not a perception in the sky. I was asking for how the perception is defined/described.

Shalom / peace. ...The Arabs wouldn't have access to the science definitions of today so it would have all been perceptions as to whey the fast started.  Therefore ...for those who argue they need a set point  for when the fast ends should know that the fast doesn't start at a set point but a perception so why shouldn't it end in that way? ..ie perception. Allah could have said eat and drink till sunrise but He didn't.