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Offline Duster

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Re: Fast till sunset or darkness
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2018, 04:35:54 PM »
Shalom / peace ....The new Quranic day seems to start from dawn...

Surah Qadr Verse 97:5  "(The night is) Peace until the rising of the dawn." Please read with the rest of the verses of the sura as well ...

Offline Duster

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Re: Fast till sunset or darkness
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2018, 04:41:15 PM »
science defines as the start of 'astronomical twilight' (sun 18 degrees below the horizon).

From a Quran's perspective though ... this article argues that nautical dawn is a better indicator of Quranic dawn .....

http://quransmessage.com/articles/fasting%20and%20ramadan%20FM3.htm

Offline niaz

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Re: Fast till sunset or darkness
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2018, 06:58:06 PM »
Salaam Duster,

I never said "we need a set point thats not a perception". I repeat one more time, I only asked for the definition or description for what you are perceiving. Please do not put arguments into my mouth. Its lengthy and complicated as it is, it is harder defending things I never said.

If you prefer nautical twilight, go for it.

Also, I already addressed 97:5 ... please read the responses, it is clear you haven't been reading them  :D. 97:5 confirms that layl ends with fajr. It does not say that yaum begins with fajr. The "seems to" part is called speculation. Its an unwarranted inference to force a preconceived conclusion.

Peace.

Offline Duster

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Re: Fast till sunset or darkness
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2018, 08:57:30 PM »
Shalom / peace Niaz ..Apologies - didn't intend to put words in your mouth so please don't take it that way...

However, still not seen clear proof from the Quran that yaum begins with sunset either.  That too IMHO is unwarranted inference and speculation to force a preconceived conclusion / confirmation bias ....I can't see how a new day begins after sunset either.

Offline niaz

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Re: Fast till sunset or darkness
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2018, 10:21:58 PM »
Salaam Hamzeh,

These are my comments on the method of understanding the Quran itself ... and why I strongly disagree with the method I see followed for this issue (and some others). I apologize for having to do this ... I didn't see another way communicate what I was saying, other than doing a full-blown critique.

I would approach the Quran as a simple reading, and take the evident, obvious, explicit instructions and meanings, and avoid implications and speculations not stated explicitly. And realize that God guides us to its understanding - it is a spiritual endeavor and not an academic one. God says Quran is clear and easy to understand, and that is how we should expect it to be. There should be no need for complex analyses or elaborate articles. Also use the default, common, known meanings of words, unless there is compelling, explicit evidence to change it. Ideally, we shouldn't be needing to do anything more than point to the verses to share an evidence, and maybe elaborate with a sentence or two if we still could not get across what we wanted to communicate from a verse. If we are needing to do more than that, it means we are reading into it things that are not there. I am sure this resonates with you too - I have found this forum to be relatively sober, and thats the whole reason I visit here - maybe we only disagree on where this principle is applied.

And not nitpick over trivial things, to the point of them losing their significance all together. Usool-ul-fiqh is full of it ... the fact that their sources are other than the Quran is only part of the problem. Dozens of trivial things that nullify prayer or ablution or fasting etc. They justified speculation and conjecture in the name of methods like "qiyas" and have elaborate arguments for their rulings. Also in Quranist circles, I have seen a lot of arguments on what things are "not", without any clarity on what they are. They indulge in so much speculation and "research" as they see it, they end up not knowing what something is, but are very clear on what it is not. For example, after elaborate and intricate analysis of "sujood", they know that it is "not physical prostration". It is very hard to extract from them what they think it is, they themselves do not seem to know what it is, yet the are certain it is "not physical prostration".  Similarly Salaat is "not ritual prayer". Ramadan is "not the 9th Arabic calendar month". Kaaba is "not the cube shaped masjid in Mecca". Qiblah is "not the direction of prayer". The list goes on. I see some parallel between these and the emphasis here on "not sunset". It can be anything and arbitrary, anywhere between when "even a little" darkness starts to appear to "before total darkness". But the darkness that sets in at sunset won't count for "even a little", and if you agree with that, then you are seen as picking sectarian sides!

In the process, I see a lot of clutching at the straws, speculation and inconsistencies to force this conclusion, which I try to summarize below.

  • Meaning of yaum regardless of sectarian position, is sunset to sunset, and layl followed by nahar. Which means that sunset separates the end of nahar and the beginning of layl. That is enough reason to use this as the default position. But it was abandoned with the claim that there is "no explicit support from the Quran", to open the doors to speculation.
  • There is no verse that explicitly redefines the word yaum differently from the meaning above. Yet, numerous inconclusive "examples" are listed that each individually have no bearing on or connection with the definition of the start of yaum or layl (we discussed them - 1,2,3,4,6).
  • Unwarranted inferences, using elaborate diagrams, based on 69:7. But considering only two of the four possible combinations of when the wind started vs. when layl starts were considered. For example the wind starting at dawn and yaum starting at sunset (a leading partial day), which is also 7 nights and 8 days was not considered. (You partially understood my explanation here - you just need to recheck the math again).
  • 2:187 strongly supports the definition of yaum in #1.
    Quote
    Permitted for you during the nights of fasting is intercourse with your wives. They are your confidants and you are their confidants. God knew that you used to betray your souls; hence He has accepted your repentance and has forgiven you.  From now on you can have intercourse with them and enjoy what God has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white line can be distinguished from the black line at dawn.  Then complete your fast till night. ...
    As seen in the verse, the description of the night of the fast (in blue) followed by the fast (in red). Still you say
    Quote
    "there needs to be a fast followed by a night and not a night followed a fast. I cannot wrap my head around it any other way."
    Which is OK, but it is just a convention. Night first in a calendar day is just as valid as daylight first. Similar to reading left to right or right to left. Your inability to wrap your head around it is not reason enough to make it wrong.
  • 91:4 and 92:1 are consistent with this meaning of layl, when understood that layl is covering the sun, with the pronoun ha a continuation for its usage for the sun in 91:1-3. But you said that it should not be taken as the sun, but the "brightness", but offer no reason why it should be so. OK, fine, lets try that then. Then layl by your understanding should start after the brightness in the sky disappears - i.e., with the onset of total darkness. When you realize this contradicts the Quran, instead of correcting your understanding of 91:4 back to "covers it" meaning the sun, you say the brightness does not have to be covered. Instead you decided that "even a little bit of darkness" is sufficient for night to start. Which is an inconsistency and contradicts the meaning you proposed for 91:4. And the "even a little bit of darkness" is an arbitrary decision - personal speculation - which cannot be attributed to God or to the Quran.
  • The article posted defined the start of night (its words) as "when stars / planets begin to appear" (from 6:76). But you have the problem that planets are visible just after sunset. Now you decided that kawkaban cannot refer to a planet, since it is not the definite form. This is not evident from the Quran, since al-kawkab is not used anywhere in the Quran. Nor from Lanes Lexicon. Lanes lexicon states the definite form al-kawkab refers to Venus, but note that it does not make this distinction between planet and star, when it uses the word 'stars' loosely for celestial objects, including the planets and Jupiter (maybe the artifact of being a 19th century publication). This does not mean that indefinite form cannot mean planet at all. Even if Venus has been designated for reference in the definite form, the indefinite form may refer to any planet or star. Exclusion of planets from the meaning is arbitrary. From the account of 6:76, it seems more logical that Abraham would refer to the brightest object he saw in the night sky, rather than a star thats far fainter.

There are all these hoops to jump through, lined up as ducks in a row, to avoid the observation that layl starting after sunset is indeed consistent with the Quran. As discussed above, they all involve speculation or inconsistencies. And after all that, there is no way around admitting that the removal of the sun's glow at sunset is the onset of at least "even a little" darkness.

I understand the point that God used layl and not ghurub, and there is no problem taking a second look to check if is really means sunset or not. But finally, its God's choice - we cannot teach Him what words to use, or tell God "if You wanted us to break fast after sunset, you should have used use this word and not that". And I understand if someone still wanted to interpret layl as starting later, and followed that accordingly. But this concerted effort to declare that it can be anything under the sun but not "just after sunset", with complicated articles full of unsubstantiated conjecture just blows my mind. All for the petty result of breaking the fast 10-30 minutes earlier or later.
 
Peace.

Offline niaz

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Re: Fast till sunset or darkness
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2018, 03:24:46 AM »
However, still not seen clear proof from the Quran that yaum begins with sunset either.  That too IMHO is unwarranted inference and speculation to force a preconceived conclusion / confirmation bias ....I can't see how a new day begins after sunset either.

This is proof - take it or leave it ....

  • If the meaning of the word yaum in the Arabic language, is sunset to sunset, consisting of layl followed by nahar, we should take that meaning. Quran is not a dictionary to redefine every word.
  • Nevertheless, 2:187 clearly describes the "night of the fast" as preceding the actual fast during daylight. Color coded for your convenience. How much clearer should it get?
    Quote
    Permitted for you during the night of the fast is intercourse with your wives. They are your confidants and you are their confidants. God knew that you used to betray your souls; hence He has accepted your repentance and has forgiven you.  From now on you can have intercourse with them and enjoy what God has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white line can be distinguished from the black line at dawn.  Then complete your fast till night. ...
  • Observe that even siyam is not defined per se, nor is what is forbidden during it is explicitly listed. God describes what you already know, and its meaning can be "confirmed". People were already fasting even before this verse was revealed, and already knew what siyam meant. And sexual intercourse was previously prohibited on the "night of the fast" (i.e., the night preceding the daylight when they fasted). Through this verse, God removed this prohibition, and sex was permitted on the night preceding the daylight fast. And we can "confirm", although it is not explicitly stated, that sex, food and water are prohibited during the daylight fast that follows. Likewise, the meaning of yaum is also confirmed as layl (eat, drink, sex permitted till fajr) followed by nahar (fast from fajr till nightfall again).
  • And finally. 91:1-4 makes it clear that night starts with when the sun is concealed. Which is clearly when the disk slips beneath the horizon.
    Quote
    By the sun and her brightness. And by the moon as it follows her. And by the daylight as it reveals her brightness. And by the night as it conceals her.
  • An alternate interpretation proposed is that the "her" in 91:4 refers to the "brightness" in 91:3, and not to the "sun". If this were true, and night starts when the sun's "brightness" is concealed, then night should start only with total darkness. We all agree that this contradicts the Quran. So the "her" in 91:4 cannot be the brightness, but refers to the sun itself, just like in 91_1-3.

Peace.

Offline Duster

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Re: Fast till sunset or darkness
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2018, 03:48:07 AM »

This is proof - take it or leave it ....

You haven't provided any concrete proof IMHO .. I can say the same about you not taking proof.

Your highlighting things isn't making it any better either. An article was already shared with you earlier in the thread that described when the day starts .. but of course, you are not going to believe it and instead, start attacking it with phrases like "unwarranted inferences, using elaborate diagrams" or "with complicated articles full of unsubstantiated conjecture just blows my mind"

I think your biggest problem is that Allah didn't say 'ghurub shams' or something similar when that could have been clearly stated...... On one side you say the Quran is simple or that you "would approach the Quran as a simple reading, and take the evident, obvious, explicit instructions and meanings" and not to "nitpick over trivial things" or "lot of clutching at the straws, speculation and inconsistencies to force this conclusion" and yet..... when it comes to the Quran saying fast to LAYL instead of SUNSET, you are not willing to take your same approach and apply it ....but get a huge discussion over when the Islamic day starts ...

Also, this term night of the fast can easily mean the nights between the fasts. It doesn't need hoops to jump through to understand this.

Finally - you talk about Arabic language .... look up lanes lexicon and the meaning of 'yaum' and you'll see what it says as a primary meaning "and day, meaning the period from the rising of the sun in its setting"  That is the 'common conventional acceptation'  or from 'dawn to sunset'

Shalom / peace

Offline Duster

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Re: Fast till sunset or darkness
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2018, 04:22:53 AM »
So summary IMHO thus far:

1. Sunset is not synonymous with night. Neither is this proven from the Quran nor is it proven from the classical Arabic dictionaries
2. The Quran uses precise language and Allah doesn't run out of words either .. the words sunset or sun and its setting are terms that have been used by the Quran ........
3. We could be better off discussing when layl should reasonably begin.....does one wait a little for the sunsets hue to disappear to separate the two? how long - 10-20 mins seems reasonable. Shall we use stars or planets as a guide? Can the community or a people come to a consensus like those from the Jafari school of thought have on this issue....?

Offline niaz

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Re: Fast till sunset or darkness
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2018, 04:47:08 AM »
Salaam Duster,

Thanks. Lane also lists "a civil day; the period of revolution of the greatest firmament", which is nothing but the 24 hour day.

From: "Ibn ‘Arabi - Time and Cosmology"
https://archive.org/stream/IbnArabiTimeAndCosmology/Ibn-Arabi-Time-and-Cosmology_djvu.txt

Quote
However, as already noted, Ibn ‘Arabi did observe that there was a difference between the Arabs and some non- Arab ( ‘ ajam ) groups in their conventional definitions of the ‘day’, in that the Arabs considered the day to extend from sunset to sunset, while others considered it to extend from sunrise to sunrise. So for the Arabs, the night precedes daytime, while for non-Arabs it is the reverse. This matter has no effect on the length of the whole day itself, but its implications do have an effect on the actual unit of day and especially on its spiritual and symbolic meanings, because For the Arabs and the Arabic timing, it has been traditionally agreed that the night precedes daytime, ...."

What I described, I illustrated with specific examples, and I have specifically responded to every single point listed in the article. You have not specifically replied about 2:187 explicitly specifying a sequence, or 91:4 explicitly describing night as covering the sun, so I don't see the point of continuing that discussion.

Peace

Offline Duster

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Re: Fast till sunset or darkness
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2018, 05:54:23 AM »
You have not specifically replied about 2:187 explicitly specifying a sequence, or 91:4 explicitly describing night as covering the sun, so I don't see the point of continuing that discussion.

I've provided enough responses. I don't work on your demands or anyone else of what should and should not be responded to if I think it futile ..... I've made my points clear which are more pressing for me .....

I've referred you to the classic definition which clearly lists primarily when the day starts i.e. Fajr You pick and make reference to an 'also'. Fine by me but it's not convincing. Sorry.

I've made a clear point - Why did Allah not say sunset when similar words are found in the Quran .. You appear not to press up on it ... Fine by me ....

If you don't see the point of continuing the discussion ...pity ...as it's an important topic to discuss.  Therefore on the same basis that you haven't provided any convincing evidence either from the Quran or classical dictionaries that sunset is definitely the point from where the new day starts ... then I also see no point in continuing the discussion with you on the matter.....That too .. fine by me .....

Shalom / peace.

Offline munir rana

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Re: Fast till sunset or darkness
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2018, 03:49:16 PM »
Salam.

Hope, these verses were already taken in consideration where it is said that one of the features of day is `visibility'. At sunset visibility still exists. Doesn't it? (This is also pointed out in brother Joseph's article.)

10:67  He is the One Who made for you the night that you may rest in it and the day giving visibilty. Indeed in that surely (are) Signs for a people (who) listen.
27:86  Do not they see that We have made the night that they may rest in it, and the day giving visibility. Indeed in that surely (are) Signs for a people (who) believe.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Fast till sunset or darkness
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2018, 11:57:19 AM »
Peace

Thank you brother Duster for sharing your perspective. I think you made some strong points which should be considered.

Brother Niaz you have also put forth some good points to ponder about. Thank you for sharing your approach as well. I have read your comments and Insha'Allah I will comment on them in due time. I am not dismissing them but I have some questions to them and you also can see the points being made by brother Duster as well.

I think we all seem to share a common approach and find that we agree on many key points. May God accept all our best approaches Insha'Allah.

Thank you brother Munir as well

Jazak Allah Khair Insha'Allah to you all

Salam

Offline niaz

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Re: Fast till sunset or darkness
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2018, 11:02:08 PM »
Salaamun 'alaikum,

Thanks Hamzeh. Looking forward to your comments. Just one clarification regarding the classical definition of day, in response to Duster.

I've referred you to the classic definition which clearly lists primarily when the day starts i.e. Fajr You pick and make reference to an 'also'. Fine by me but it's not convincing. Sorry.

Lane provides different usages of يَوْمٌ. One is as a synonym for nahar (daytime or daylight hours), when "the sun is above the earth", from sunrise [or dawn] to sunset. I am not debating that yaum has this usage as a synonym of nahar. And it is interesting that in this usage, 'daytime' clearly ends at sunset.

I am talking about the other usage as the 24-hour calendar day, for one full rotation around the earth (which Lane refers to as "a civil day"). The question is what is the definition the "civil day"? I claim that the classical definition, which predated the Quran and common to Arab and Jewish traditions, is "sunset to sunset" and "night preceding daytime". Lane did not mention a specific definition for the "civil day". The definition from Ibn Arabi I quoted confirms that this is the classical definition. Even the article agreed that this is the standard (or "popular" as it liked to call it) definition.

Quote
يَوْمٌ A time, whether night or day; (Mṣb;) time absolutely, whether night or not, little or not: this is the proper signification: (Kull, p. 390:) and day, meaning the period from the rising of the sun to its setting; (Lth, TA:) the time when the sun is above the earth: this is the common conventional acceptation: (Kull, ubi suprà:) and the period from the second [or true] dawn to sunset: (Mṣb, Kull:) this is the legal acceptation: (Kull:) and a civil day: the period of the revolution of the greatest firmament. (Kull)

Again, I was trying to communicate my disagreement with the approach/method of interpreting/understanding the Quran in the article (link below), not the conclusion per se. So I went down the path of a detailed critique, I was not trying to "attack" for the sake of it as Duster seemed to suggest. And it was not my intention to upset or offend anyone.

Peace.

When does a new day begin?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1338.0

Offline Wakas

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Re: Fast till sunset or darkness
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2018, 07:08:55 AM »
peace all,

91:4 " by the night as it conceals it" the it here is the sun because the of the feminine "it" used in the Arabic.

No-one refuted the above.

Also discussed here:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1152.0


Offline Wakas

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Re: Fast till sunset or darkness
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2018, 07:12:23 AM »
peace,


   And observe the contact prayer at both ends of the daylight, and early part of the night.

It is more accurately "near/proximal parts (Arabic plural, i.e. more than 2) of the night".