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Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Resurrection explained by a parable
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2012, 01:27:37 AM »
Salaam,

Thanks for all the input. I think that Joseph has put the verse into much context especially when relating it to Surah Kahf and also pointing out that it is not a riddle to be solved. I also agree completely with Sardar Miyan's last comment regarding the significance of keeping the food fresh and letting the donkey decay. There is much wisdom in this as it's a visual representation relating to resurrection and also eternity.

However, I feel that the interpretation of G.Parwez is odd in that it talks about the event as being symbolic by saying:
'When the passer-by had reflected upon the parable, he said: 'Now I can understand how Allah can give life to dead nations.'

Also when you read the verse, you have no idea about the background to the village or man, yet in the text G Parwez inserts:
'As is known in history, after the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, the Bani-Israel lived in captivity for about a hundred years. Then they were liberated and re-established in Jerusalem.'

I note that with all of his translations relating to miracles, he interpreted the events very differently from what the Arabic says simply because he had (as far as I am aware) an aversion to such things (i.e miracles).

We must not restrict the abilities of God. The verses are what they are, including miracles and it is up to the individual to accept them, not change them into what makes him/her feel comfortable.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Resurrection explained by a parable
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2012, 01:45:33 AM »
Allah had shown the mans food fresh to show him that even after 100 years he can keep it fresh while the body of donkey is shown rotted to demontrate the resurrection by clothing with bones,flesh & skin.

Peace Brother Sardar,

Thanks for your comments.

There are also other interpretations one can admit. How do we know that the intact food for him did not represented God's eternal 'rizq' which remains timeless, while the dead donkey represented the temporal life which is sure to end and become nothing but bones and dust? In that context, his own resurrected fully fleshed body (after 100 years) represented God's power to be able to flesh bones and resurrect. I suppose this is why I am inclined not admit any particular interpretation as the correct one. The man clearly understood what was shown to him and that is what is being made clear to us.

Regards,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Resurrection explained by a parable
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2012, 03:42:24 AM »
Thanks for sharing .Your idea that the man who was asleep for 100 years and  was resurrected when he woke up or Allah made him awake or awakening & resurrection at the same time.
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Mubashir

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Re: Resurrection explained by a parable
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2012, 05:02:57 AM »
Br Mubashir, Salam, If I am not inquisitive are Mubashir Inayat ? Thanks

Salam Br Sardar

Yes, you guessed right, I am Mubashir Inayet.

Just to share Brother Muhammad Shafi has added further to the discussion:

In school we were taught a method for solving geometrical problems/theorems. The method was called 'reductio ad absurdum.' It literally means 'I reduce it to absurdity.' The method is to assume the contrary and see how such an assumption would lead to absurdity. Let us apply this method to the problem in hand. Let us assume that the relevant portion in Verse 2:259 means that the food, the drink, and the donkey remained unaffected by the passage of time (100 years). This is obviously absurd. Normally, none of these can remain unaffected. But Allah can do anything. HE can make them remain unaffected even for so long a period. But why would He, when by means of these objects, He wished to prove to the man in the Verse that he had remained dead for 100 years!? So our above assumption is absurd.
 


Some interpreters say that the food and the drink only remained unaffected, but the donkey was dead with its decayed bones only remaining. But it makes no sense that Allah should have kept the food and the drink unaffected. HE had kept the man himself unaffected, and that was enough to show to that man that Allah can do anything, when the passage of time had destroyed the other accompaniments of his.
 



Br Faiz has raised a valid point about the absence of the Arabic letter 'alif' before lam. But, maybe, the word fanzur there has obviated the need for the 'alif'.
 



In any case, we cannot give the divine Verse a construction that would render it absurd. The relevant portion of the Verse could alternatively be interpreted to mean that there was no trace of the food and the drink because of the passage of such a huge period of time, while only the decayed bones of the donkey had survived.
 



Wassalaam,

Mohammad Shafi





Offline optimist

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Re: Resurrection explained by a parable
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2012, 05:48:52 AM »
salam alaikum,

I think the exposition of Parwez is very much convincing.  I am just sharing some thoughts based on parwez explanation and my thinking.  After all, Quran repeatedly directs us to ponder over Allah's verses instead of blindly falling on them.  Let me quote Parwez's exposition first, which I think is more closer to truth. 

259        (From Laws relating to an individual’s life and death We now move to the Laws relating to the life and death of nations.) As is known in history, after the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, the Bani-Isr’ael lived in captivity for about a hundred years. Then they were liberated and re-established in Jerusalem. This story has been narrated in the Quran symbolically as follows: A person passing through a ruined habitation asked if such a devastated place could have new life. Allah kept him in a death-like state for a hundred years, then gave him new life and asked him: “How long have you remained in this state?” He replied: “May be a day or so.” Allah said to him: “You have been in this state for a hundred years but your food and drink has not gone bad and your ass is still standing as before. You should also reflect upon the process by which man develops from the embryonic state to where he becomes a living human being.” 

              When the passer-by had reflected upon the parable, he said: “Now I can understand how Allah can give life to dead nations.”

260        Each Nabi has been confronted with the problem of giving life to a dead nation. For instance, Abraham faced such a problem and said to Allah: “What is the process by which new life may be infused into a dead nation?”. Allah asked him: “Do you not believe that dead nations may receive new life?”. Abraham said: “I do believe but I would like to know by what process, so that I can undertake it with full confidence.” Allah explained the process to Abraham through an example. He said: “Take four untamed birds. At first they will seek to get away from you. Make them familiar with yourself gradually. This will bring about remarkable change in them. Even if you set them free and call to them, they will come to you swiftly.” This is how you must patiently reform those who rebel against your call and bring them close to yourself and make them understand and appreciate the Divine System. This is how they will receive “life.” Most certainly Allah is All-Mighty, Wise.


Verse 2:259 mentions about "giving life to a dead nation" قَالَ أَنَّىٰ يُحْيِي هَٰذِهِ اللَّهُ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهَا   
So the parable mentioned needed to be understood with respect to death and resurrection of a "nation" not a the death of an individual (though symbolically it is mentioned Allah caused the person who posed the question to die for 100 years).   The symbolic personality wonders whether this ruined devastated place could have new life...looking at the ruined city one might think it can never have life.  However, the devastated nation was given life after a prolonged period of 100 years.  The question how long have you remained in this state is with reference to the resurrection of the nation, since looking at the nation with full of life now no one could believe it was in death like situation for over 100 years.   The food, water and donkey are symbolic representation of the things that remained the same during the process of revival of the nation.  The verse "We may make thee a Sign unto men" refers to the lessons we can learn in the whole revival process of the nation.    And the verse "look at the bones, how We set them and then clothe them with flesh" also refers to the nation, how the devastated ruins of the city got transformed into full of life, and how the city got liberated and received a new life after its complete devastation.   And as Parwez, beautifully explained When the passer-by had reflected upon the parable, he said: “Now I can understand how Allah can give life to dead nations.”.   The moral lesson to learn is this.  It is always possible to give life to dead nations.

By the way, it is amazing how Parwez explained the very next verse 2:260 considering the traditional understanding of its meaning.   The moral lesson in this verse is also linked to verse 2:259.   Verse 2:259 mentions about giving life to a dead nation قَالَ أَنَّىٰ يُحْيِي هَٰذِهِ اللَّهُ بَعْدَ مَوْتِهَا (qala anna yuhyee hathihi Allahu baAAda mawtiha - When will God restore it to life after its death?) and verse 2:260 also mentions about giving life to death رَبِّ أَرِنِي كَيْفَ تُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ - (rabbi arinee kayfa tuhyee almawta - show me how to give life to a dead nation).   Prophet Ibrahim would not ask Allah to show him how to give life to a dead being, especially while directly communicating with Allah he would not ask such a silly question. He was asking Allah how to give life to dead nations, which was his ultimate responsibility, and Allah was teaching prophet ibrahim a beatiful lesson through a parable.
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Resurrection explained by a parable
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2012, 08:33:13 PM »
Dear Optimist,

Salamun Alaikum.

Please see a related post and response:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=417.msg1283#new

When a parable is cited, it is usually cited to elucidate a central theme. Parables are not cited to support each other. So if I make a statement X, I will use parable Y and Z to explain 'X'. The central argument ‘X’ is not found in the previous verse 2:259 as you seem to suggest.

Verse 2:259 and verse 2:260 are only 'parables' (‘Y’ and ‘Z’) which support the theme which is found in verse 2:258 (‘X). Verse 2:260 is not used to support 2:259 directly.

The central theme is established in verse 2:258 where God's majesty and sovereignty was contested by a disbeliever along with God's ability to give life and death only. Verse 2:258 by itself has nothing to do with a nation. 

Therefore, I cannot support the central premise of your argument which I feel is unwarranted as is Parwez's interpolation.

I feel that Parwez unjustifiably could not accept that God could 'intervene' and suspend the laws that He Himself had created when it was His will. This has led to many erroneous claims such as the denial of Biblical portents where Parwez has in my opinion and without warrant, reinterpreted verses to support his particular bias.

This has caused him to 'interpolate' into the Quran renditions which are not supported by the Quranic Arabic and do little but disharmonise the narratives of the Quran.

Please note that my contention is only with his academic arguments which at times I feel is based on a faulty premise. It is not a criticism against the man.

Please see the following article:

MIRACLES OR MISUNDERSTOOD NATURAL PHENOMENON?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/miracles%20and%20laws%20FM3.htm

Regards,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline optimist

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Re: Resurrection explained by a parable
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2012, 02:18:55 PM »
I feel that Parwez unjustifiably could not accept that God could 'intervene' and suspend the laws that He Himself had created when it was His will. This has led to many erroneous claims such as the denial of Biblical portents where Parwez has in my opinion and without warrant, reinterpreted verses to support his particular bias.

This has caused him to 'interpolate' into the Quran renditions which are not supported by the Quranic Arabic and do little but disharmonise the narratives of the Quran.

I can not make a comment on the issue at the moment.  I am still a student at the moment. I am very much impressed by his articles and his insight into Quran.  At the least regarding the miracles of Moses I am more or less convinced on the usage of metaphorical usage as parwez has explained.    One thing I know.  I do not think any scholar living today can prepare a reference book like Lughaat-Al-Quran running into more than 1800 pages, a dictionary of quran, providing each and every word in the quran (alphabetic order) with all its different meanings as mentioned in the Quran. He had such vast knowledge in Arabic.  And regarding miracle this was what he wrote  after discussing about miracles; taken from http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/ICR/ICR_5.htm
 
The view advocated heremay, however, be challenged on the ground that the Qur'an recounts many miracles which were wrought by the earlier Anbiya. There are several possible interpretations of these miracles. Some scholars have had recourse to allegorical interpretation. Others have held that the figurative language and vivid imagery served to drive home a general truth. Another plausible theory is that the Qur'an in describing people of an earlier age had to mention the unusual events which had psychological reality for them. However, it is a question which concerns the scholar who is interested in the mental development of man. It has no bearing on din as such. We subscribe to the view that they have been narrated metaphorically and can be interpretted rationally.

The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Resurrection explained by a parable
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2012, 03:32:29 PM »
Dear Optimist,

Salamun Alaikum.

Thank you for your post.

I am sure you will appreciate we should simply not equate volumes of work with truth.

There are indeed countless individuals that have presented tomes of literature throughout history. This by itself does not make them correct or incorrect.

It is the arguments presented which remain important and whether they can withstand critical scrutiny. There is no greater literature than the Quran and everything else related to 'deen' must stand up to its scrutiny.

I sense from your post you have some sort of infatuation with Parwez and whilst this is entirely your prerogative, with respect, it does little in an epistemic debate.

However, I was happy to read what you shared in 'blue'. This clearly indicates a man who was willing to appreciate all arguments. However, I have personally found those that are inspired by his work today and present his perspective at times misrepresent/misinterpret his work moulding it in a way that fits their own interpretive bias. Of course, this sentiment is not a reflection on your kind self. I mean it generally.

We will God willing, stay firmly with the arguments and I have noted your last post with respect.

Regards,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline optimist

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Re: Resurrection explained by a parable
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2012, 03:59:07 PM »
Wassalam,

Thank you so much for your comments.

Let me quote for you from his “Preface to Urdu edition of Tabweeb-ul-Quran” (an encyclopedia, by dividing the entire Quranic teachings in separate chapters, under different subjects).  You will find how down to earth person was Parwez.   

"Lastly, it is necessary to repeat the fact that all my efforts in interpreting Quranic teachings are but a human effort which cannot be considered free from error or forgetting, nor it can be considered as the last word. That is why I have only presented the Quranic verses in this collection, although at certain places conclusions have also been drawn from the purport of the text. If you do not agree with my corollaries, you may ignore them and make your own decisions by contemplating upon the text. My only objective is to facilitate the work of those intending to tread the Quranic path, (helping them along according to my own ability and breadth of vision), so that they my find it easy to reach the goal. I would like to be their fellow  traveller, not mentor. I shall consider myself fortunate enough if I can achieve this much."

Please read what he stated in the following link

http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez//QL/QL_preface.htm
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Resurrection explained by a parable
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2012, 04:52:05 PM »
Salaam all,

I am still baffled as to why G Parvez was intent on refuting what have clearly been shown to be miracles in the Quran. The lengths he as gone to inorder to portray them to be symbolic amazes me.

It seems to me that he may have had a preconceived notion that miracles simply cannot exist and followed through by interpreting verses in such a way as to eliminate their existence. This has resulted in long winded interpretations of the verses which  do not represent the arabic words at all. This is extremely dangerous in my opinion.

I note also that he has the same stance with jinns and also Iblis as well.

Offline optimist

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Re: Resurrection explained by a parable
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2012, 01:02:53 PM »
Salaam all,

I am still baffled as to why G Parvez was intent on refuting what have clearly been shown to be miracles in the Quran. The lengths he as gone to inorder to portray them to be symbolic amazes me.

It seems to me that he may have had a preconceived notion that miracles simply cannot exist and followed through by interpreting verses in such a way as to eliminate their existence. This has resulted in long winded interpretations of the verses which  do not represent the arabic words at all. This is extremely dangerous in my opinion.

I note also that he has the same stance with jinns and also Iblis as well.

Wassalam, 

(As you might have come across), according to Parwez, miracles are narrated in Quran metaphorically and he believes they can be interpretted rationally and he further stated "It is a question which concerns the scholar who is interested in the mental development of man".  I am not yet fully convinced on this point yet except on certain issues which i believe could be used allegorically.  Please note, according to parwez this issue has no bearing on Islam as such.   He is requesting us to ignore this point if we can't agree with him.  We should not be too much focused on this issue and ignore the main issues. 

Yesterday I was reading the following from parwez exposition, from chapter Naml, (provided in blue color below) and I think parwez has beautifully explained the message of the verses with more clarity.  I believe literal understanding of words like Naml as actual "Ants" and Tair as "birds"  and Hudhud as particular bird are not  warranted in the context of the verses; those could be very well allegorical terms used to denote specific situations, nature of his armies and its power and strength.  Let us see how parwez explains veres 15 to 45, chapter 27.

http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/expo_027.htm


15.               And after David, Solomon became his successor.  (This was not because he was David’s son but because he was competent for this exalted position.  It was just coincidence that he was the son of a Nabi and a king.)  He said to the people, "Just look at the strength and the might of this kingdom and the abundance of everything that is available here.  We possess a very strong cavalry and we are fully aware of its capability and discipline.  (In those days the cavalry was considered the backbone of the army ~ 21:79; 34:10.)

            All these bounties, power and ability to defend are indeed evident; and these are sure signs of God’s favour.

16.               Soloman's army consisted of civilised people from the cities; savage and mighty brutes from the mountainous jungles; and swift horse riders from the tribe of Tair.  All of them were kept in the camps so that after proper training, their capabilities could be gainfully utilized.

17.               (At one time Soloman learnt that the State of Sheba was planning to attack.  So as a precaution he took his army towards them.  The valley of Namal was on the way and like that of the State of Sheba, its head of state was a woman.  When she received the news of this army, she ordered her subjects to remain in their dwellings to save themselves.  Without ascertaining whether they had any connection or alliance with their enemy the State of Sheba, she was afraid that the troops might crush them.  (This is normal action when armies invade.  It is better to move out of their way.)

18.               Solomon smiled when he heard this.  (These poor souls were right. They  had heard and seen that whenever the royal army passes an area, it brings nothing but haphazard destruction.  However, did they understand that this is the army of Allah's Rasool, whose purpose is not to disturb the innocent but to give them protection?)  Then he prayed to his God, "O my Rabb, you have granted me a great empire.  Therefore also grant me adequate restraint and self-control so that instead of causing destruction to mankind, the strength and stately splendour you have bestowed on me and my parents can be utilized for peoples’ benefit and for reforming their affairs.  Every step of mine should be in conformity with Your Laws; so that I can be included amongst the subjects whose abilities develop through your Rabubiyat and Rehmat; and those who are responsible for reforming the affairs of mankind.

20.        (One day, while on the march, Solomon asked for a section of cavalry who at that time were not present there.)  When they arrived he asked them, "Where is your chief Hud-Hud?  Has he gone somewhere for a while or is he absent from his duty?”

21.        If he is absent (then according to the rules of the army) I will severely punish him.  And if he does not produce any explicit authority (permission slip), he may even be sentenced to death.

22.        Hud-Hud returned after a short while and said, "I had gone deep inside the territory of Sheba for investigation.  I have gathered information which previously was not available to you; and since it has been collected by me (personally), it is absolutely reliable.

23.        I have found that a woman rules over that country.  She has everything, (in that she is self-sufficient in her state and does not depend on help from other nations).  Even her internal discipline, order and control are simply magnificent.

24.        However, the queen and her subjects worship the sun and not Allah.  Shaitan has made their deeds look so attractive to them that they think of their creed as being correct and proper.  He has kept them away from the right path in a way that they are unable to obtain guidance towards it.

25.        (It is surprising that) They do not worship (obey) Allah; the Allah Who as and when needed brings forth everything from the hidden treasures of the universe.  His knowledge is not limited to the physical universe, He also knows what you disclose and what you conceal in your heart.

26.        He is that God, other than Whom no one else wields complete authority in the universe; and He who holds the central control in His own hands.

(It is surprising that inspite of living in such a large kingdom they cannot understand this.  Instead of such an authoritative entity, they consider the sun which does even not have control over its own rise and setting, to be their god.)

27.        Solomon said, "We shall soon see how much truth there is in your statement.”  (It is necessary to verify statements issued by news agencies.)

28.        “Take my letter and deliver it to the authorized persons of Sheba.  Then get away from them, but wait there to see their reaction.

29.        After reading the letter the Queen of Sheba called a meeting of her advisors and told them, "I have received a letter which has been written in a very noble and dignified manner.”

30.        “This letter is from King Solomon; and its message is that Allah’s attributes of Rahman and Raheem (of providing means of development to all) should be made available to all mankind.” (1:2)

31.        The gist of this letter is, "Do not rebel against me.  Rather, surrender to the Divine Laws; follow them and come here."

32.        After reading out the contents of the letter she addressed her courtiers and asked them to, "Think about the problem and advise me on what we should do.  You know that I do not take a final decision on any matter until I consult you."

33.        They said, "If Solomon has a mighty and powerful army, we too are not timid or weak.  We are a strong nation of warriors and we too are endowed with power.  Therefore there is no need to worry about this.  However, this is the only issue on which we can give you full assurance.  Because on such issues the final decision has to be yours, before deciding you should also think about the other aspects.  We will act according to whatever decision you take; and we are waiting for your orders.”

34.               She said, "I am confident that you will not hesitate to go to war; but the fact cannot be denied that whenever the kings invade a country, they destroy and ruin it.  They even change the social life of that community, whereby the nobility and leadership are humiliated.  This phenomena is not particular to all kings, but this usually happens in such circumstances and will also happen in the future.  (As such there is no reason to believe that this king will not do the same.  Accordingly my idea is to avoid war as far as possible.)

35.               Therefore (for the time being) I am sending some gifts and will wait for their reaction.  (Perhaps they will give up the idea of waging war against us.)

36.        When the Queen’s envoy came to Solomon with the presents, he said, "(After seeing the gifts) Do you want to entice me with wealth?  You should know that the wealth and treasures which Allah has granted me are better and much more abudant than what you have.  Therefore your wealth cannot tempt me.  The gifts which you have brought may be a source of pride for you (but not to me).  The thing which is of value to me is that you submit to the Divine Laws.”

37.               Now return to your people and tell them that “Since you have not accepted our terms, there is no alternative for us but to invade you with forces which you will never be able to defeat.  We shall drive you out of your country with humiliation and consequently you will spend the rest of your lives in subjugation.”

38.               (So the envoy returned and Solomon decided to attack.)  He addressed his courtiers and said, "I prefer that before the people of Sheba come out of their abodes to fight and surrender after defeat, it would be better to capture their control centre.  (Perhaps in this way they will come to terms without the need to wage war.)  Then he asked them, "Who amongst you can fulfill this task?"

39.         A stalwart who was a courageous, bold and skillful leader of the savage tribe said, "I will accomplish it in no time; so quickly that the queen and her government’s control center will be at your feet before you leave this place.  (Entrust this mission to me.)  I am capable of doing the task and I am trustworthy."

40.               Another chief who was aware of the correspondence mentioned afore said, "I can accomplish this mission even quicker; so soon that the Queen of Sheba will be facing you in complete submission within no time.”

            The mission was entrusted to him and he accomplished it almost to perfection.  When Solomon saw the loot of the war he bowed before his Rabb in humility and said, "Victory like this against another powerful nation was only possible with the means and the equipment which He has provided us.  He provides such opportunities to see whether I utilize correctly the might, power, wealth and  dignity that He has provided me; or whether I waste them erroneously.  It is obvious that any nation that utilizes them correctly and positively will benefit; while that which wastes them will suffer.  It brings neither  any benefit nor loss to my Rabb.  All this is for human beings only.  God is absolutely free of needs and does not require anything at all from the produce of human labour.  He possesses everything in great abundance."

41.               But this victory was achieved in the battlefield and they had not captured the whole capital city.  Solomon thus directed that his troops (without causing too much damage to other places) should attack the capital with such force that it would be disfigured.  With this plan it was possible that the governing leadership might surrender (but if they did not then they would plan alternate schemes).

42.               (The strategy worked and the Queen of Sheba surrendered.)  When she came before Solomon, he asked her, "Was it because of your wealth and power that your nation became so rebellious?"  She replied, "Yes, such was the nature of our wealth and power; and we had in fact realized this earlier.  We are now your humble subjects."

43.               In fact, she could have accepted Solomon’s superiority much earlier, but she was hindered by the religion of her people; namely the gods which they worshipped instead of Allah.  (They were under the impression that these gods would come to their rescue and make them victorious.  However that turned out to be false.)

44.         Their relationship then became cordial and Solomon invited her as a state guest and made arrangements for her to stay in a grand palace with glass flooring.  She had never seen such a palace before and when she saw the reflections of the walls in the floor, she was puzzled and deemed it to be an expanse of water.  (Solomon sensed her embarrassment and told her that there was nothing to worry about.  This was not water, but a glass floor on which reflections can be seen.)

(Seeing all this pomp and show, Queen Sheba inquired from Solomon how he had obtained such abundant goods, luxury and comfort.  Solomon replied, "In a land where the Divine System of Rabubiyat is enforced all these things do become available.”)  Upon this Queen Sheba said,  "O my Sustainer!  I had erred by leaving you aside and adopting to obey other false deities.  I was in fact in darkness.  Now the reality has dawned before me and therefore I will obey the God who guarantees the development of mankind.  I will follow and obey Solomon.  We are both His subjects.”

45.         (That was the story of Solomon and Queen Sheba, who by surrendering to and obeying the Divine Laws saved herself from destruction and decimation.  However there were other nations which, in spite of these warnings by their Rusul, did not leave their erroneous path and were subsequently destroyed.)  One such nation was the tribe of Thamud to whom We had sent Saleh.  He was one of their brethren.  He advised them to follow the Divine Laws, whereupon they split into two parties.  One believed in the Divine Laws and sided with Saleh and the other rebelled. The two factions were opposed to each other.



The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

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Re: Resurrection explained by a parable
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2012, 01:38:15 PM »
Connected to my previous post I prefer to accept Parwez's version for his explanation of verse 34:12 wherein it says Allah subjected the wind to Solomon   وَلِسُلَيْمَانَ الرِّيحَ غُدُوُّهَا شَهْرٌ وَرَوَاحُهَا شَهْرٌ  No natural laws were violated.

34:12  (Likewise, We endowed his son Solomon with great power and excellence.  His fleet of boats used to sail in the seas.)  In this regard he had full knowledge of the direction of winds.  As a result, in one day or even the earlier part of the day, his boats covered distances that other boats would travel in a month.  Similar long distances were covered in the later part of the day.
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

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Re: Resurrection explained by a parable
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2012, 03:19:22 PM »
Salaam,

You mention:

"I believe literal understanding of words like Naml as actual "Ants" and Tair as "birds"  and Hudhud as particular bird are not  warranted in the context of the verses; those could be very well allegorical terms used to denote specific situations, nature of his armies and its power and strength."


I would like to start by asking, why would God use well known words to the Arabs, like tair (birds) to explain a different meaning?

We know that the Quran states that it is a clear book in the Arabic language, easy to understand for its audience. If God did not mean 'birds' then why was it used if only to denote something else.

God does not bombard us with riddles.

I feel that because G.parvez did not believe in miracles and other concepts, he translated those verses in a way that satisfied him. This is unfortunately not the way we should approach the Quran..we cannot change it to fit our preconceived notions.

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Re: Resurrection explained by a parable
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2012, 10:14:33 AM »
Salaam,

You mention:

"I believe literal understanding of words like Naml as actual "Ants" and Tair as "birds"  and Hudhud as particular bird are not  warranted in the context of the verses; those could be very well allegorical terms used to denote specific situations, nature of his armies and its power and strength."


I would like to start by asking, why would God use well known words to the Arabs, like tair (birds) to explain a different meaning?

We know that the Quran states that it is a clear book in the Arabic language, easy to understand for its audience. If God did not mean 'birds' then why was it used if only to denote something else.

God does not bombard us with riddles.

I feel that because G.parvez did not believe in miracles and other concepts, he translated those verses in a way that satisfied him. This is unfortunately not the way we should approach the Quran..we cannot change it to fit our preconceived notions.
Assalamu alaikum,

I post below the meaning and explanation of the two arabic words in 27:16 مَنْطِقَ الطَّيْرِ translated as "language of birds" as explained by Parwez in his lughat ul Quran.

Tha, yeh, rah
Taar: yatiru tayyaraana: for the bird to move in the air with its wings: to fly: 6:38 atara: tayyarahu: to make fly: to fly with somebody: at tair: is the plural of taa-ir: but is also used to mean singular: 3:48 as a plural this word has been used in 67:19 Ibn Faaris says that it basically means for something to be light in the air: thereafter it is used metaphorically for everything fast: istataar: for something to be different and scatter*: almustateer: high and scattered: spreading speedily in the air: which has affected the entire atmosphere: 76:7 at-taa-iru: mind: Anything which is thought to be lucky or unlucky*: it may also mean to be a high minded person: surah Aali Imran says: Hazrat Isa told his qaum (bani Israeel): inni akhlaqu lakum minat teeni kahai’atir tair…: 3:48 I create for you like a bird with mud: but in fact it means that I will create it from the same earth (material) a new system in which you will emerge from your present low existence into the heights of life and thus you will attain the heights of Deed and thought: (See anajeel; Hazrat Isa used to explain things by way of allegories and metaphors): At taair also means bad omen or luck ( destructive results) or the punishment for deeds:

At taairu means also luck for the Arabs but the Qur’an has used it to mean the result of deeds : kulla insaanin alzamnahu taairahu fi oonqehi: 17:13 here human deeds are called taair: because man has the right to do it o not do it but he does not have the right to dictate the result of that deed or to escape the results or take the deed back after it has been committed: that is, it flies out of his hands (the deed): but the result of that deed still hangs around his neck because the result of any deed does not separate from him: at teerah: the bad luck that is taken to be signified by bad omen: tatayyira behi wa minhu
wat tayar: he thought it to signify a bad omen: * 36:18:19 in 27:47 it has been said against bad omens: this is the result of your own deeds which has been compiled according to the law of nature created by God: and ‘omen’ does not mean anything beside this

Farasun mutaar: tayyaar: intelligent and fast horse: surah Namal says that the armies of Hazrat Suleman was constituted of djinn, inns (humans) and tair: djinn means wild tribes: inns means civilized people: and tair means fast horses: (cavalry): so it is said for Hazrat Daud : at tiara mahshoora: 38:19 he had an army of very fast horses: it is about them that Hazrat Suleman had said: ullimna mantiqat tair: 27:16 literally it means we were taught the languages of the tair: but it means we have been trained as how to man the horses: surah Namal says about Hazrat Suleman wa taffaqadat tiara fasqaala ma liya la aral hud hud: here tair has been used to mean speedy steeds (or the cavalry) and hud hud was the name of one of the leaders of the infantry: (in those days the names of men were kept after the birds, like the book Salateen says was Taurat): Lissanul Arb says that hud hud was the name of a tribe in Yemen: therefore every individual of thattribe was called hud hud: but just as Qizilbaash is the name of a tribe but every individual of that tribe is also called a Qizlibaash.

Nuun, tha, feh
An-nutfah: clear water be it abundant or little: but this word is particular to mean little water for the Arabs: an-nutfah: sperm: sea: river: natafal ma’i: the water flowed: or spilled: dropped in small parts:** Ibvn Faaris says it basically means wetness and humidity and said figuratively it is said in order to become muddy and it is used mostly in an execrable sens: shaiyun nutfah: a faulty thing. The noble Qur’an has said at a place about the creation of man that it has been created from sperm: the sound of animals is not called nutq but saut: antaqahul laah: God called him to Him.  Muheet says that nutqis particular sithy human speech:

Raghib says nutq is the word which like a nitawq encompasses, the meaning: Ibn Faaris says it has these two basic meanings: 1) speech or somethng similar 2) a sort of dress: which encompasses: The Qur’an says: inn kaanu yantiqoon: 21:63 if they talk: surah Jaasia says: haaza kitabuna yantiqu alaikum bil haqq: 45:29 this Book of Ours clarifies everything with haqq (truly): another place it appears that those who will go to hell say to their bodies, what how dare you present evidences against us: they will say: antaqanmahul lazi antaqa kulli shaiyi: 41:21v we have been granted the power of speech by the God who has enabled others to speak: obviously here nutq does not mean to talk but to somehow express the truth: just as we say that every move that we make speaks….: Sirah Namal says about Hazrat Suleman was taught muntiqat tair: 27:16 it means the speech of the birds: or figuratively the rules of a horse brigade: see heading the, yeh, rah: if it is taken to mean the speech of the birds, it will mean the movements and sounds with which man can understand what they mean: this thing can be btained by observain and knowing about how the birds behave: but generally we prefer the former meaning.
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

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Re: Resurrection explained by a parable
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2012, 10:37:57 AM »
Nuun, miim, laam
An-naml: is the plural of namlah : ants**: in the tale about Hazrat Suleman says: hatta iza atau ala waadin namli qaalat namlatun ya ayyuhan namlud khulu masakinakum: 27:18 the Taj says that the valley of namal is between jabreen and asqalaan:*some say that the land is in Syria: but if this valley was situated on the road to the country which led to the land of Queen Saba then it would be situated near Yemen: however, the valley of namal is not a place where of ants live, but the name of a residential place of a tribe: and annamal is the name of the tribe: namlah is the name of a woman of that tribe: it seems women were the head of that qaum: i.e. their culture was matriarchal. Anaamil is the plural for anmulah: the tips of the fingers :3:118.

Based on the above, parwez gave the following translation;
27:17.               (At one time Soloman learnt that the State of Sheba was planning to attack.  So as a precaution he took his army towards them.  The valley of Namal was on the way and like that of the State of Sheba, its head of state was a woman.  When she received the news of this army, she ordered her subjects to remain in their dwellings to save themselves.  Without ascertaining whether they had any connection or alliance with their enemy the State of Sheba, she was afraid that the troops might crush them.  (This is normal action when armies invade.  It is better to move out of their way.)

27:18.               Solomon smiled when he heard this.  (These poor souls were right. They  had heard and seen that whenever the royal army passes an area, it brings nothing but haphazard destruction.  However, did they understand that this is the army of Allah's Rasool, whose purpose is not to disturb the innocent but to give them protection?)  Then he prayed to his God, "O my Rabb, you have granted me a great empire.  Therefore also grant me adequate restraint and self-control so that instead of causing destruction to mankind, the strength and stately splendour you have bestowed on me and my parents can be utilized for peoples’ benefit and for reforming their affairs.  Every step of mine should be in conformity with Your Laws; so that I can be included amongst the subjects whose abilities develop through your Rabubiyat and Rehmat; and those who are responsible for reforming the affairs of mankind.


I have also the following personal thoughts;
1. The usage of 'Ant' helps us to compare the mighty power of solomon's army....there is possibility of allegorical usage.
2. Though Ants make some sort of communication among each other based on the natural laws, we can not assume Ant has brain and has the capability to think and understand things as humans do.
3. Notice how solomon smiles and then prays thanking Allah for the strength and mighty power he has obtained which made ordinary people just "respect" his army.
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal