People of the book.

[Iman]

In his article about interfaith marriage ,Mr Joseph said to exclude a person believing in the trinity. But are the christians not people of the book from whom we  are allowed to marry?

[Hamzeh]

Salam Iman

Yes the Christians are from amongst the People of the Book.

You will realize that the People of the Book are a general category. At times the verses calls out to all those who are from the People of the Book which includes those who are Jews and Christians who are following their guidance given to them and those who are not.

There are also times in the Quran that God speaks about those who follow their guidance in truth and some times only to those who had ascribed partners with God. The reader needs to be aware of the differances and the context is telling at times.

But believers who follow the Quran closely will realize that marriage is allowed with the People of the Book who actually follow the guidance given to them in truth. Not those who were given the Book but are seen as polytheists or not believing or acting upon their Book in truth.

I find that if this logic is applied to the Christain and Jews I would also find it warranted amongst Muslims themselves.

So if one finds that a Muslim is not following their guidance given to them in truth which is the Quran and has choosen to ascribe partners to God the Quran seems to suggest that this marriage is also not lawful as it would go against the message of such verses 2:221

Do not marry idolater women unless they believe in God. A believing slave girl is better than an idolater, even though the idolaters may attract you. Do not marry idolater men unless they believe in God. A believing slave is better than an idolater, even though the idolater may attract you. The pagans invite you to the fire, but God invites you to Paradise and forgiveness through His will. God shows His evidence to people so that they may take heed.

So in other words names and labels dont mean much but the actions of those who are from amongst all those who were given scriptures does.

Insha'Allah that helps

Salam

[Iman]

 sorry for the late reply

 aya 5 in sura elmaeda says :  And [lawful in marriage are] chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture before you......... here Allah has put the believing women ie muslim in a group and the woman given the scripture in another group ie the christians and jews......
had they followed" what they were given in truth"  as u stated then they would automatically  be muslims in the general sense so there would not have been a reason to mention them in another group....so i dont really see ur point .

also when Allah spoke in this verse he didn't  specify which group of christians  are eligible for  marriage..He spoke in general ie people of the book ..He did not say "believing people of the book" 

u said :  Not those who were given the Book but are seen as polytheists ....  why do u say they are polythiest? sura elbayena  aya 1 definitely excludes them from polythiesm  " Those who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists were not to be parted [from misbelief] until there came to them clear evidence "

i think we can eat or marry form christians in general and the distinction between christians that u refer to is related to Allah's  relation to them not ours...because like i said when Allah allowed us to marry and eat their food He did not mention 'which" christians He spoke of them in general.


another point is that Allah has put both the christians and jews in one group ie people of the book even thu the jews do not belive in the trinity.. so being "of the book " is  stauts given to those with  the  devine book regardless of the trinity issue.

i hope  i am conveying my point clearly
thank  you.

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu 3alykum

I think its important to read the Quran from the view of those who are the first recipients of it.

The first recipients are prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and his people. Its clear from many verses that the prophet and his people are uneducated about the Abrahamic faith. They are termed to be "ummiyoun". They are called to faith and there are some who believed(Aamanu) and there are some who rejected(kafaru). God repeatedly calls them and separates them from different people in their surroundings. This does not mean they are the only believers(muslims).

Its also clear that in the prophets vicinity there are others who are from the Abrahamic faith who speak Arabic. They are termed to be People of the Book, Bani Israel, Yahuud, Nasara, etc.

The term "Muslim" as a label for a nation as a whole does not to seem to be established in that time like in todays world.

Anyone of those who received guidance from God and follows it is a Muslim from a Quran's perspective. The Christians, and the Jews would of had a equivalent word that means Muslim in their own language.

Verse 5:5 is making it clear to a new community that those chaste women who also come to belief and those who are chaste from the people of the book are lawful in marriage to them.

The reason God has put the believing women in a separate category is to make it clear that those who are also muslims from the people of the book are also lawful in marriage.  Its also to make it clear that not only the people who believe in the Quran are Muslims but also those who are from the people of the book. In this verse the context is clear, that the people of the book who are being mentioned are the ones following the truth and not the ones who have taken a wrong path as for example worshipping other Gods or ascribing partners to God. One can tell what path is wrong or right by collaborating their ways with the message of the Quran. All the Scriptures must be consistent.

You said

also when Allah spoke in this verse he didn't  specify which group of christians  are eligible for  marriage..He spoke in general ie people of the book ..He did not say "believing people of the book" 

There is no reason to say "believing people of the book" as the context is key and tells which ones God is speaking of. Its also clear from the Quran that:

3:113 Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.

u said :  Not those who were given the Book but are seen as polytheists ....  why do u say they are polythiest? sura elbayena  aya 1 definitely excludes them from polythiesm  " Those who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists were not to be parted [from misbelief] until there came to them clear evidence "

What I meant by polytheists are those who worship more than one God. Like some Christians who take Jesus as a lord or a son of God I would say they are not monotheists but polytheists. Either way I should of explained it different.


The verse you mentioned is capturing a people who have rejected(kafaru) the Quran in the prophets time. The verse is clear that those who have rejected the Quran from those who received a Scripture from God(Jews,Christians) and those who are polytheists(mushrikeen)(from the ummiyoun,) are not going to be parted from their decision of rejecting the Quran until clear evidence comes to them.

Here God is telling us about people of the scripture regardless of whether they are ascribing partners to God or not they are at least rejecting the Quran and God is also telling us about another group of people who were presently mushrikeen(ascribing partners to God) who also rejected the Quran.

Again the reason the Quran separates the polytheists from the people of the book is because thats exactly how people perceived themselves and its because thats how they were.

You said

i think we can eat or marry form christians in general and the distinction between christians that u refer to is related to Allah's  relation to them not ours...because like i said when Allah allowed us to marry and eat their food He did not mention 'which" christians He spoke of them in general.

I would have to respectfully disagree with that statement.

The food that is spoken of in that verse is about the lawful food prescribed to them in truth and the marriage from the People of the Book is not from those who ascribe partners to God as it would go against the spirit of the Quran and this verse

2:221 Do not marry idolater women unless they believe in God. A believing slave girl is better than an idolater, even though the idolaters may attract you. Do not marry idolater men unless they believe in God. A believing slave is better than an idolater, even though the idolater may attract you. The pagans invite you to the fire, but God invites you to Paradise and forgiveness through His will. God shows His evidence to people so that they may take heed.


You said

another point is that Allah has put both the christians and jews in one group ie people of the book even thu the jews do not belive in the trinity.. so being "of the book " is  stauts given to those with  the  devine book regardless of the trinity issue.

I think its more to it than just the trinity issue. I would say in my personal humble opinion that its about faith. The message seems to be encouraging the recipients of the Quran to marry believing practicing women from the people of the book who also recognize the Quran as the true faith. This is more than hinted in verse 5:5 as it allows for the People of the Book to lift the restrictions of food that was once forbidden for them and with the acceptance of the Quran, verse 5:5 becomes in effect and they may now eat from all the food the Quran has made lawful.That being said they would by default accept the Quran testimony. They are not asked to convert but that they understand or accept the Quran is also the word of God.

I would also have to safely say the verse does not restrict men from marrying women from the people of the book who follow their guidance in truth(making sure they are not amongst those who ascribe partners with God) regardless if they believe in the Quran or not.


Salam

[Hamzeh]

Salam

Also regarding your comment

another point is that Allah has put both the christians and jews in one group ie people of the book even thu the jews do not belive in the trinity.. so being "of the book " is  stauts given to those with  the  devine book regardless of the trinity issue. 

I would like to mention that yes its true that even Christians who hold to the concept of the trinity are also refered to in the Quran as "People of the Book"  as they are infact a people who were given a Scripture from God.

This does not mean that they are from the lawful spouses a believer who takes his/her guidance from the Quran can choose from. They would also be classified as people of the book yes but those who has choosen to ascribe partners with God. There is a simple command that do not marry idolators(polytheists)  2:221.

So one needs to understand verse 5:5 in light of 2:221 and 3:113

Salam

[Iman]

so u mean to say that u consider christians  are mushrekeen  ie polythiest? But Allah never used this word to describe them.

[Hamzeh]

Peace

Im not saying Christians are muskrikeen.

In the main and by default people who follow Jesus(pbuh) are believers(muslims)  even if they don't call themselves the name muslims.  Its the meaning that counts.   

5:111 And when I inspired the disciples, (saying): Believe in Me and in My messenger, they said: We believe. Bear witness that we have surrendered (unto Thee) "we are muslims(muslimoon)".

Note that the disciples of Jesus (pbuh) were Muslims

As we all agree Jesus never said he was a God or a son of God.

So the Christians who follow Jesus and do not take him as a Lord have not ascribed partners to God. Those God speaks of in the Quran and those are the ones who are lawful to marry from a Qurans perspective.

Those who call themselves Christians and have taken Jesus as their Lord have ashraku(ascribed partners with God) hence why I used the term mushrikeen.

5:72-74They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners(yushrik) unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

What would you call a muslim today who ascribes partners with God?

The word mushrikeen does often refer to the idolators polytheists who never recieved a Scripture from God in the Quran. Thats likely because that is how they percieved themselves.

Also God does not use the word mushrikeen to call to the Christian because the Christians did not perceive themselves as that. But in other clear words God does say explicitly that those who ascribe partners to Him have ashraku. It doesn't matter what one labels themselves Muslims, Christians or Jewish.

Also a note is that mushrikeen are not necessarily disbelievers.
Thats another discussion.

Peace

UNDERSTANDING 'KUFR' (DISBELIEF) FROM A QURANIC PERSPECTIVE
http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/understanding kufr FM3.htm