Women's clothes and rape?

[AQL]

Salamun Alaykum,

I have a few questions.

1.
I feel like some people use the command for women to cover so they are not "molested" (33:59) to show that clothing is supposed to protect a woman? But I've even heard of cases where women were sexually assaulted near the Kabah, fully clothed. How is clothing a protection?

2.
If "fashish" acts includes more than unlawful sexual intercourse, would the term generally include even include clothing or it is SEXUAL actions? As far as I know, there is no punishment for someone due to their clothing.

3.
4:15 talks about a punishment for women but the next verse (4:16) for men speaks of forgiveness and mercy? Or does the forgiveness in verse 4:17 also apply to the women in 4:15?



Thanks for any answers! 

[AQL]

Nothing?

Another one. I read a response by Joseph Islam on the topic of "polygny" (in blue)

Then there is this matter of self-constraint. What really makes a man to marry again? Fulfillment of urges? Not necessarily, albeit it can be argued that if a particular man may not remain monogamous and his inclination would be to otherwise cause sin in a particular situation, it would be far more appropriate to take on the full responsibilities within the ambit of marriage which includes financial support, rights to inheritance, equitable treatment etc. This level of responsibility could even act as a deterrence and avoid some of the sin / debauchery and desensitisation of extra marital affairs that have become arguably quite commonplace in the ‘modern world’.

However, other situations may include complex circumstances where women would otherwise become vulnerable or exposed, complexities arising within equally complex family structures and a host of other reasons which would be outside the scope of this response. From a believers perspective, this is an option (though not explicitly encouraged) that has been allowed by God in His infinite wisdom.

Why is it so common in the Muslim community to acknowledge men's sexual "urges" and "inclination to commit adultery/sin" but not as much women's? And when they do, it seems to be done in a way to put down/insult women as if it's not normal.  There are also women who have higher urges than their male counterparts in marriages/relationships. What's the "solution" for a woman if she's married to a man but desires more than him? And it does happen! Women also cheat and commit adultery! I would say self-constraint and being patient is the way for both men and women, so I don't understand why men can have an excuse and even a "solution"....

[Duster]

Shalom / peace ShatteredEmblem ......

Your argument seems like arguing that women can also commit violent crimes, when it is well known that men are more prone to physical violence and violent crime that women ....Maybe the Quran spends more verses focuses on keeping men under constraint because they are more prone to certain inclinations ?... act on their wayward instincts perhaps ... Why do we always have to try to compare men with women? ......I completely switch off when any discussion takes this tone  ...

Yes .... I'm sure there are plenty of sex crazed nymphomaniac women out there and there are also celibate, restrained men out there .....

I can only talk about the Quran ... and from what I read ... there seems to be no attempt to put women down .. quite the opposite .. If anything, men seem to be needing the most guidance showing me that they are a species that are less prone to control themselves ....like a bad teenager ....


Also it would be nice if you could share the whole link and context of brother Joseph's response. I had to look it up and it was specifically in response to a specific question ..... Then there is this matter of self-constraint. What really makes a man to marry again? Fulfillment of urges? ...

Here's the link if others are interested ....>>>>> http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2489.msg12968#msg12968

[Duster]

Salamun Alaykum,

I have a few questions.

1.
I feel like some people use the command for women to cover so they are not "molested" (33:59) to show that clothing is supposed to protect a woman? But I've even heard of cases where women were sexually assaulted near the Kabah, fully clothed. How is clothing a protection?

2.
If "fashish" acts includes more than unlawful sexual intercourse, would the term generally include even include clothing or it is SEXUAL actions? As far as I know, there is no punishment for someone due to their clothing.

3.
4:15 talks about a punishment for women but the next verse (4:16) for men speaks of forgiveness and mercy? Or does the forgiveness in verse 4:17 also apply to the women in 4:15?



Thanks for any answers! 

I'll try to answer ....

1. Had a look at the word 'yudayna' in 33-59 which can also mean troubled ... meaning cause of distress. Lets take it to the extreme to make a point .. Who is going to get more attention of men .. a woman with revealing clothes / hardly any clothes or someone more covered? I don't see how using incidents where women are molested with their clothes on takes away from the point that being better covered is going to get less attention from perverted men?

2. Brother Joseph talks about 'Fahisha' in the link below:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=69.msg182#msg182

3. I would think 4:17 would apply to both ......

[AQL]

Also it would be nice if you could share the whole link and context of brother Joseph's response. I had to look it up and it was specifically in response to a specific question ..... Then there is this matter of self-constraint. What really makes a man to marry again? Fulfillment of urges? ...

Salaam,

Even with the full link it does not really answer what I said. I've noticed it's quite common in the Muslim community that men say things like "It's so hard for men to control themselves", "Men like women", "men are naturally polygamous" etc. Generalizations and such. Men are and can be more than just sexualized animals than they seem to be portrayed..
And.. what about women? We also have to control ourselves, we also have a test. What would be our "solution" to stay away from adultery?
No, not all men are polygamous and not all women want monogamy.
 

Had a look at the word 'yudayna' in 33-59 which can also mean troubled ... meaning cause of distress. Lets take it to the extreme to make a point .. Who is going to get more attention of men .. a woman with revealing clothes / hardly any clothes or someone more covered? I don't see how using incidents where women are molested with their clothes on takes away from the point that being better covered is going to get less attention from perverted men?

"Cause of distress" or being distressed?
I'm talking about them being protected from being "molested" or even "distressed" because they're covered. Even women in a lot of Muslim countries are harassed and distressed and there are even cases of groping near the Kabah that I've read about.
Watch this about Egypt and even the perspective of a few harassers around the 8:19 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gja05symHkk&t=275s

And would you apply the same logic to a half naked man as a distraction?

[Duster]

it's quite common in the Muslim community that men say things like "It's so hard for men to control themselves", "Men like women", "men are naturally polygamous" etc. Generalizations and such.

Is it generalisations or truth? Why else does the Quran dedicate verses and verses to deal with men's inclinations then?...Please explain ...

And.. what about women? We also have to control ourselves, we also have a test. What would be our "solution" to stay away from adultery?

Again, a direct comparison. Why are you so bent on comparing men and women all the time? I am not giving men praise here .. I am saying they may be a more weaker species with regards their urges or they are likely to be overpowering if they were to violently physically act out their urges. More men rape women than women rape men. Otherwise why is the Quran spending more verses trying to entice men to control themselves? Why? Can I have an answer please?

No, not all men are polygamous and not all women want monogamy.

Yes, and so? Men can be violent, so can women......>>>> Better question - Which of the two genders has a greater inclination to violence? Explain please ...

I'm talking about them being protected from being "molested" or even "distressed" because they're covered. Even women in a lot of Muslim countries are harassed and distressed and there are even cases of groping near the Kabah that I've read about.

You've missed my whole argument... I didn't say women who are covered don't get harassed. But who is more likely to get harassed? A women with less or revealing clothes or someone who is more modestly or conservatively dressed?   

And would you apply the same logic to a half naked man as a distraction?

You apply no reality to your questions. A man that walks half naked down a dark alley or a women that walks half naked down a dark alley. Who is greater at risk? If you are going to give me some kind of radical feminist response ... then I'm through discussing this with you.

[AQL]

Is it generalisations or truth? Why else does the Quran dedicate verses and verses to deal with men's inclinations then?...Please explain ...

It is a generalization. Not all men are sex maniacs.
Which "verses and verses" are dedicated to men's sexual "needs"?
And are you implying that women do not have these "inclinations"?

Again, a direct comparison. Why are you so bent on comparing men and women all the time? I am not giving men praise here .. I am saying they may be a more weaker species with regards their urges or they are likely to be overpowering if they were to violently physically act out their urges. More men rape women than women rape men. Otherwise why is the Quran spending more verses trying to entice men to control themselves? Why? Can I have an answer please?

This is about the double standards and hypocrisy, so comparisions will be made.
Even if they were "weaker" (a big if), it does not mean self-constraint and patience does not apply to them and that extreme sexual behaviour for them should be encouraged.
The Qur'an is "enticing" men to control themselves? Through polygamy, you mean?
You're the one who isn't answering my points actually.

Yes, and so? Men can be violent, so can women......>>>> Better question - Which of the two genders has a greater inclination to violence? Explain please ...

Ignoring the point again.

Men do. Should they be given the right to beat women as "enticement"?

You've missed my whole argument... I didn't say women who are covered don't get harassed. But who is more likely to get harassed? A women with less or revealing clothes or someone who is more modestly or conservatively dressed?   

This is the argument I used to use during my jahil mentality days.

That does NOT matter. The point is that it DOES happen and that clothing does NOT protect. Do.you.get.it?
Why don't you ask those Egyptian men? Why do they harass women in cloaks? Watch the video.

You apply no reality to your questions. A man that walks half naked down a dark alley or a women that walks half naked down a dark alley. Who is greater at risk? If you are going to give me some kind of radical feminist response ... then I'm through discussing this with you.

That was not my question.

I've been giving you the reality throughout. The hypocrisy in society and within the Muslim community when it comes to women's sexuality. For some reason you are offended by it.
You are choosing not to answer me and instead going the typical male "who is more likely to be harrassed?!!!" argument when that is not even the point.

It's true that men make up the majority of rapists and murderers. There are men who even rape other men, children and even elderly women! Was it their clothes? There was a recent case where a woman in coma gave birth! Was it her hospital clothes?  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/05/phoenix-police-woman-coma-decade-gives-birth-boy
It was revealed that there is a rape problem in Indian villages more than the cities. How would your clothes argument fit here? You need to look beyond the western world.

If you are going to give me some kind of misogynistic, male chauvinistic reply then you can leave as well.

[AQL]

    Yes, and so? Men can be violent, so can women......>>>> Better question - Which of the two genders has a greater inclination to violence? Explain please ...

I will rephrase the first part of my answer to this.

Men commit more violent crimes. There.

[Duster]

If you are going to give me some kind of misogynistic, male chauvinistic reply then you can leave as well.

It appears to me you have a problem with men and to be honest....i have little time for radical lefty feminist views. I'm through with you on this matter....It's not surprising that you haven't understood my response.

[AQL]

It appears to me you have a problem with men and to be honest....i have little time for radical lefty feminist views. I'm through with you on this matter....It's not surprising that you haven't understood my response.

If I'm a radical lefty according to you then what does that make you? Far-right extremist misogynist?

It's also not really surprising that you could not answer any of my points, decided to ignore them and started name calling (radical feminist lefty views).. 
Peace.

[Duster]

Call it what you like.....if it makes you sleep better ....  I answered your questions.  You are just too far up your leftist feminism attitudes to know any better ...i expect nothing better from you types!!...

[AQL]

Call it what you like.....if it makes you sleep better ....  I answered your questions.  You are just too far up your leftist feminism attitudes to know any better ...i expect nothing better from you types!!...

Nope, you did not. All you did was "Who is more likely to be harAssEd?!!1!!" whilst ignoring the reality and all evidence I showed you. As soon as a man starts using "feminist" as an insult, you can guess their views. Your name-calling and attitude shows your views towards women anyway. There are a lot of such men in the Muslim community..

[Athman]

Dear brethren Duster and ShatteredEmblem,

Peace be upon both of you,

Dear sister ShatteredEmblem and brother Duster, I don’t see any need to turn into being personal with each other or calling each other names. As believers, I trust that we should be at a better position informed as to the way we ought to carry our discussions and how to end them amicably. In such a situation, we should stay cognizant of evil whispers and try steer clear of them (7:200, 41:36).

To start with, it has to be appreciated that, to understand something from an Islamic perspective, for the sake of the discussion, one has to divorce themselves from all pre-conceived notions of their general world views on that. Islam has to be given the chance to expound the subject matter from within its remits hence be understood in its overarching principles and context before formulating from that a general understanding to the wider society. This is the basic premise.

We should therefore, also for this matter, be careful not to confuse ‘gender’ responsibilities, rights and provisions as outlined in the Qur’an with our externally derived sensibilities. The overall structure of these aspects within the gender pair should also well be recognized to the widest scope possible, from a purely Qur’anic perspective.

For example, with a general Qur’anic male to female inheritance ratio of 2:1 (Qur’an 4:11), I do humbly submit that this is fair enough given a Qur’anic expected charge of man over a woman (4:34) and as he provides for his wife as well as clothing her (2:233). However, a deceased’s female parent gets twice (1/3) as much as the male parent gets (1/6) when no descendants nor siblings are left. Also, from a Qur’anic perspective, an ordained generous offering (mahr) is due to the woman from the man in case of a solemn marital covenant (2:236-237, 4:4, 4:24-25, 5:5, 33:50, 60:10) where consummation plays part to whether a refund is to be made in case of a divorce situation (33:49).

In Islam, a woman's virginity is a noble status that should be rendered sacred and reserved only for their husband as should a man's for his wife. With the willingness of a woman to offer her chastity to a proposing man expressed in a religiously legal contract to last a lifetime, an ordained generous offering (mahr) from the man agreed upon themselves aptly serves to seal recognition of such a life-long sacrifice (4:21). This is the God ordained marriage system for believers where there’s an expectation of the ‘mahr’ to be due to the bride from the groom (33:50) in line with its expectation of a man to betroth a woman (4:25). The reasons behind that can only be surmised, while the wider wisdom is fully well known to God.

Given the nature of the task, the general natural responsibilities and gender physique, twinned with the historical milieu especially as regards gender perspectives, one could surmise as to why in scriptural history were all prophets male (21:7). Again, the widest wisdom in its entirety is only known to God. This though, as you may agree with me, cannot in any way be taken as a divine chauvinistic or misogynist stance by God. In the same stroke, a Qur’anic provision/ allowance for polygyny (4:3) with an absence of the same for polyandry (2:230) does not divinely sanction a chauvinistic approach to matters of multiple marriages. This is a God ordained provision/ allowance and not an encouragement nor an order. Again, apart from what can be surmised to be possible reasons for the provision for males, the overall wisdom behind it is only fully within God’s knowledge.

Apart from the natural instinctive compassion, love and care amongst couples (30:21), the Qur’an also acknowledges an intense intimate instinct (ash-shahawati) that is adorned for man to a woman (3:14). Though this is to be restrained through patience (wa in taswbiru khairu lakum) - 4:25, for fear of falling into decadence/ debauchery, enacting a marital bond with an appropriate partner is the legal and in fact recommended system in place for believers to enjoy intimacy (fama istamta’tum bihi minhunna) via conjugal rights (4:24).

Therefore, in light of verse 3:14, and given God’s infinite wisdom and knowledge of His creation, a provision/ allowance for polygyny with believers (4:3) amongst human beings on Planet Earth is not in any way out of place. What people may posit and speculate as reasons for the same within their subjective criteria is something else. The same applies to the issue of proper clothing. Apart from modest clothing providing for decency and avoiding causing unnecessary attention (33:59), I do not find from the Qur’anic narratives a suggestion that the Islamic attire also ‘protects’ a woman, in the sense of security/ safety (amanatan).


Hopefully that somehow helps God willing.

Regards,
Athman.

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu 3alykum

Dear brother Duster and sister ShatteredEmblem

Just a reminder that we are brothers and sisters and yes it could be frustrating to see eye to eye at times. 

I admire that we are on this forum because we believe in the authenticity of the Quran for one reason or another although some topics might not be comfortable or maybe beyond our comprehension for a while.

I would like to start off by trying to answer a couple questions you had while not giving to many assumptions.

I feel like some people use the command for women to cover so they are not "molested" (33:59) to show that clothing is supposed to protect a woman? But I've even heard of cases where women were sexually assaulted near the Kabah, fully clothed. How is clothing a protection?

33:59 O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

It is worth to mention that this verse has been revealed to the prophet to tell only his wives, daughters and the believing women to draw over themselves their clothing so that they are not abused, or troubled.

This verse is surrounded by verses where there is abuse/insults being spread or said about God, the prophet, believing men and believing women. There is no instruction to fight against such insults as the only punishment is one that is deferred to another life(33:57-58).

However there is a threat from God that if and only if the hypocrites do not stop inciting hatred and false rumours against the believers which could cause corruption and disturbance in a land and the killing of innocent people then God will grant victory to the believers by way of fighting(33:60-61)

So that being said there is nothing to suggest to me that the word "yu'dhayna" in verse 33:59 means molesting. As this would directly be an act of severe transgression, rape, or violence and would arguably result in immediate retaliation and one that is just as bad or even worse than what is happening in 33:60-61.

The verse above does give guidance to those who are God conscious and who seek to be chaste married or unmarried on how to dress and not be troubled or insulted by the disbelievers or anyone.

Why is it so common in the Muslim community to acknowledge men's sexual "urges" and "inclination to commit adultery/sin" but not as much women's?

Well true muslims should not give off that impression and I'm sure they understand women and men have desires and it is well known from the Quran that a man and women can fall into sin not juts a man. (24:2). Another example is in the story of prophet Joseph and the wife of the king.

Regardless of where this was rooted from, a person man or women who desires to be a believer and seek to abide by the laws of God will know that God strongly condemns adultery/sin (24:2).

Those who are Muslim men and think because of their urges they are able to commit adultery/sin are only fooling themselves.

However we also have to admit that adultery/fornication is not the same as a marriage bond. This needs to be appreciated. If a women has urges then they must commit to a marriage bond which has rules. Like wise for a man.

The women has the right to marry who she wants and the man has the right to marry who he wants as long as they are believers.

Where from a Quranic perspective in a marriage its the man who is responsible for giving a dowry to whatever a women wants, that he is a protector and provider for the family, etc.

There are also women who have higher urges than their male counterparts in marriages/relationships.

I'll take your word for it

What's the "solution" for a woman if she's married to a man but desires more than him? And it does happen! Women also cheat and commit adultery!

Yes sister I'm sure they are prone to doing these things just as men do.

The Quran in my humble opinion is not giving a man a solution or remedy for his temptations by allowing him to marry more than one wife. Although this can be taken advantage of.

There is times where a man or a women cannot find marriage and God instructs them to be patient 24:33 no matter how great the appetite for sexual relations are.

Therefore the permissibility for polygyny is not so much only to satisfy ones needs. There is wider wisdom possibly only known to the Lord Himself.

I would say self-constraint and being patient is the way for both men and women, so I don't understand why men can have an excuse and even a "solution"....

[/quote]

I'm a little confused as to what you are asking now?

You seem to have given yourself the answer or at least you seemed to acknowledge that self-constraint is possible no matter the urges. I agree with you.

So if you believe this is a solution and it can be done, then I see the problem you may have at this point is that you find that if the man is allowed to marry more than one so should the women. But if the man does not do it then the women should not do it.

I feel like the problem you have is with the issue of equality and what God has imposed on men and women. Not so much that one cannot self-constraint or abide by the rules of God, but by that of equality.

To be honest sister I do not think anyone Except God can tell us why He has chosen these laws. The Quran also has laws about other things that we do not understand which do not impose a threat on the message of the Quran but does give the believers something to think about and put their trust in God.

We men are also possibly puzzled because we know that it hurts some of our wives and daughters and mothers. We see their curiosity as to why. But what do we do? Ban it, forbid it?

I'm sure some do not do it because they understand it hurts their families in days like today. But is it right to twist the words of God and try to some how ban it?

As I’m sure you will appreciate that we are believers of the Quran and accepted the Quran's veracity and believe the origin of the Quran to be from the Lord. Just because we are not able to fathom or comprehend the reason behind why God has allowed polygany for a man, we cannot simply forbid it or sweeten the message to the liking of others which I've noticed muslim men have tried to do at certain points.


We do not encompass the life of this world and what it entails.

Todays world is changing fast. As always it changes in different directions all the time. From good to bad, from bad to good, or whatever roots the people choose.

It could be argued that this life is not always so pleasant and calm and will never be a heavenly abode, and the events that have unfolded in the past or will unfold in the future will possibly carry the answers to such questions and why God has chosen these rights to whatever of His creation. He encompasses all things. There does seem from a historic standpoint that women were not always against polygany so much as to how women are today. Was there something that caused or led it to be acceptable to some point? or was it a need in the world? Will it happen again?

Just some thoughts I ask myself.

God knows best.

As believing men we need to understand these questions also. Its our duty to try to share as best as possible the message of God to our sisters, wives, mothers, etc. and vice versa.

We need to understand that women are going to be somewhat saddened and not comprehend as to why God has allowed it and we men will also possibly not understand its comprehension as well.

Insha'Allah other ladies would comment and give their views as well, and please do not think we are against you but take it as we also have thought about it and just sharing to what we understand best.

God knows best

Peace

[AQL]

Dear sister ShatteredEmblem and brother Duster, I don’t see any need to turn into being personal with each other or calling each other names. As believers, I trust that we should be at a better position informed as to the way we ought to carry our discussions and how to end them amicably. In such a situation, we should stay cognizant of evil whispers and try steer clear of them (7:200, 41:36).

AssalamuAlaykum,

Yes, the way I was spoken to was rude and unneccessary.

Apart from the natural instinctive compassion, love and care amongst couples (30:21), the Qur’an also acknowledges an intense intimate instinct (ash-shahawati) that is adorned for man to a woman (3:14).

Therefore, in light of verse 3:14, and given God’s infinite wisdom and knowledge of His creation, a provision/ allowance for polygyny with believers (4:3) amongst human beings on Planet Earth is not in any way out of place. What people may posit and speculate as reasons for the same within their subjective criteria is something else. The same applies to the issue of proper clothing. Apart from modest clothing providing for decency and avoiding causing unnecessary attention (33:59), I do not find from the Qur’anic narratives a suggestion that the Islamic attire also ‘protects’ a woman, in the sense of security/ safety (amanatan).

I'm not sure if you realize but the above is what I mean I don't understand. I'm talking about the acknowledgment/lack thereof of women's sexuality and their attraction to men. Their "enticement" as the "Duster" guy put it?  Surely, God knows that women also struggle. Or perhaps it is the way the Muslim community and society at large treats women, their expectations of women, that overshadows this. If we speak up about it, we are "bad women or "radical lefty feminists". Many men try to silence women and speak for them.

There is wisdom in the story of Prophet Yusuf (pbuh) and "Zulaykha". The restraint Prophet Yusuf (pbuh) showed as a man and the way Zulaykha reacted to Prophet Yusuf's beauty as a married woman. I can't think of any other Prophet apart from Muhammad (pbuh) whose wives are mentioned in the plural in the Qur'an. All this surely shows that not everyone is the same. Not all men are polygamous and not all women are monogamous. Or that perhaps, the rules were not always the same? I don't agree with generalizing people. Several Muslim scholars seem to do it too, especially when they discuss topics like "hoor al ayn" where they pretend that all men are "naturally" polygamous and that they "need" this. Take this, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLNXbyFxQnk

I don't feel it's fair to just look at the verse about polygamy or even verse 3:14 (isn't the word used there humans/people/mankind?) coupled with society's hypersexual view of men to justify their behaviour, generalize men and women, and victim blame women. Also, those are also two separate verses. 3:14 does not speak about orphans. The verse after that actually speaks of "purified spouses" in Jannah which would apply to both, I think you'll agree.
Do you think that it is mere speculation based on "pre-conceived notion" that God allowed polygamy because of men's supposed "sexual nature"? Or did I misunderstand your point?

If we are to speak of "pre-conceived notions of their general world views", then it is often society that leads men to believe they are supposed to have hyper-sexual animal insticts with a lack of control, when some decent men would probably take offence to being described as such.

And yes, that makes a bit more sense. Clothing does not protect. Men can also be a cause of unwanted attention based on their clothing, so decency applies to them too which is not emphasized as much. It also depends on where you live, some people may find the burqa/niqab/jubbah/turban/skull-cap more eye-catching and odd. And in other societies, it may be the lack of clothes. Women are generally unsafe either way.