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Offline Joseph Islam

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Sexual Relations with Minors - A Heinous Suggestion
« on: April 27, 2019, 01:46:36 AM »
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This short video may prove difficult viewing so please be kindly aware. The discussion is between a traditionalist and a Quran-focused gentleman.

To provide evidence for the need of the Hadith corpus as an authorised religious source, the traditionalist in the video even goes as far as to claim that on its own reading, the Quran would not prohibit sexual intercourse with a 5 years old. In my humble view, this is an unwarranted, outrageous and preposterous assertion against the Quran's position.

He claims: "If you just read the Quran, it would be halal to have sexual intercourse with a 5 year old" [53 seconds].

Please can I strongly suggest that if you have not already, please kindly read the following article [1] below where I have contended with such an unwarranted suggestion dealing with verse 65:4, This may assist to provide a counter argument, if such an assertion is made to you by a traditionalist or otherwise.

I hope this helps, God willing




'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Sexual Relations with Minors - A Heinous Suggestion
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2019, 04:49:33 PM »
Asalamu 3alykum brother Joseph

Thank you for sharing such an important topic and the article you have written.

It is disturbing to see this.
It is really important that believers understand such issues and know how to defend the truth.

Regarding the traditionalists claim

He claims: "If you just read the Quran, it would be halal to have sexual intercourse with a 5 year old" [53 seconds].

Wow I dont understand if the brother realises what he is actually claiming. He is admitting that God has allowed such an outrageous act and that he disbelieves in what the Quran is claiming to make halal and it is corrected by the hadith.

How does one even believe in the Qurans authenticity when it can be overruled by another source because of its injustice? Why even read the Quran? Really no point for those who understand things like this.

Thanks again

Asalamu 3alykum

Offline Wakas

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Re: Sexual Relations with Minors - A Heinous Suggestion
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2019, 01:42:12 AM »
He is obviously not aware of:


We will discuss in more detail the verse which specifically mentions the issue of age. The context is the rights of orphans and their wealth:

And do not give the imprudent/weak-minded your money which God has made for you a means of support, and spend on them from it and clothe them, and speak to them in goodness. [4:5]
And test the orphans until they have reached the marriageable age*, then if you determine in them sound judgment**, then give them their wealth, and do not deliberately consume it wastefully or quickly before they grow up. And whoever is rich, then let him abstain (from the wealth), and if he is poor then let him utilise by what is recognised as good/appropriate. So when you paid to them their wealth, so call a witness on them, and be aware God is accounting. [4:6]

*The Arabic word is "nikah" (marriage) and has an implied meaning of sex, hence some translators interpret it as 'reached sexual maturity' in this verse.
**Arabic word is "rushd" and its meanings include: be well guided or directed, true direction, correct rule of action, straight forwardness, maturity of a child/intellect, capacity to manage one's affairs.

Thus, the two conditions for giving the wealth to the orphans are:
1- The reaching of the marriageable age / sexual maturity.
2- The proving of sound judgement / capability in managing one's affairs.

Interestingly, this implies that one could reach marriageable age / sexual maturity but still not have sound judgement, which is universally true and gives a possible reason why a specific age for marriage is not stated in The Quran. Based on this and other verses regarding marriage, it can be deduced that these two conditions can also be used as a guideline for when to consider marriage. The reason being, if we suppose after having reached marriageable age / sexual maturity an orphan is allowed to get married but their wealth is not given to them, this means they have been determined not to have sound judgement, yet they are being allowed to get married, which is logically inconsistent with the guidance in The Quran.

Please note, in 4:6 it also warns those entrusted with the wealth not to consume or waste it before they grow up, further reinforcing the idea that the period being referred to is when grown up. To conclusively prove this however, we can also look at other verses which discuss giving orphans the wealth owed to them [6:152, 17:34]. The Arabic word used in these verses is when they are "shudud", which means physical maturity / the period from adolescence to adulthood. Since the orphans can only receive their wealth once "shudud", and from 4:6 we know they become eligible for it after having reached marriageable age, this can only mean marriageable age begins from adolescence onwards. There is no other possibility.
This conclusion can also be verified in the story of Jospeh, who when first found in the well was a boy (Arabic: ghulam, see 12:19), then taken into care, then when he reached "shudud" (i.e. became physically mature) the female of the household tried to seduce him [12:22-23].
In addition, the usage of this word "shudud" in The Quran suggests reasonable physical strength, i.e. at least several years into adolescence [18:82, 28:14] which also agrees with most Classical Arabic dictionaries which average about from the age of 17 for the word "shudud", which also happens to coincide with when a significant number of orphans would meet the two conditions for receiving their wealth. Many countries begin to grant extra rights at the age of 16, and many give full rights at 18, so this seems fairly close to worldwide practice.

To conclude, it is proven beyond doubt by The Quran that one must be physically mature and be of sound judgement in order to get married.