Marriage with the People of the Book

[Mohammed]

peace brother Joseph,

You say
"Marriage between Muslim men and women from the Book is clearly sanctioned by the Quran with clear provisos."
http://quransmessage.com/articles/marriage%20with%20people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm

but I think this is only applicable for that time i.e. for marriages that are fixed(given the bridal due) before the revelation of Qur'an.

here's the translation of 5:5 as I understand the verse,
"This day (all) the good things are made lawful for you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste women from among the believers and the chaste women from among those who have been given the Book before you; when you have given them their bridal due, marrying not fornicating nor taking them for secret concubines; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers"

And the Qur'an says,
"O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Nazarenes/Christians as allies, for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from among you is one of them. God does not guide the wicked people." [5:51]

[Mohammed]

5:82
You will find the people with the greatest animosity towards those who believe are the Jews and those who are polytheists; and you will find the closest in affection to those who believe are those who said: “We are Nazarenes/Christians;” that is because among them are Priests and Monks, and they are not arrogant.

5:83
And if they hear what was sent down to the messenger you see their eyes flooding with tears, for what they have known as the truth, they say: “Our Lord, we believe, so record us with the witnesses.”

So as they believed in the Qur'an, they will have Swalat, Fasting, Hajj etc. right? i.e. they are no more Nazarenes/Christians.

5:84
“And why should we not believe in God and what has come to us of the truth? And we yearn that our Lord admits us with the righteous people.”

[Mohammed]

Thus, 24:32, 4:25, 2:221 etc. suggests marry only believers.

[Mohammed]

3:19
That truly the dheen at God, (is) the islam/submission/surrender, and those who were given The Book did not differ/disagree/dispute, except from after what (that) the knowledge came to them, out of jealousy/oppression between them, and who disbelieves with God's signs/verses, so that God (is) swift in reckoning.

48:28
He is who sent His messenger with the guidance and the truths' dheen to make it apparent/visible/overcome on/over the dheen all of it, and enough/sufficient with God (as) a witness.

3:85
And whoever seeks other than the islam/submission/surrender (as) a dheen, so (it) will not be accepted from him, and he (is) in the end from the losers.

peace

[Duster]

peace brother Joseph,

You say
"Marriage between Muslim men and women from the Book is clearly sanctioned by the Quran with clear provisos."
http://quransmessage.com/articles/marriage%20with%20people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm

but I think this is only applicable for that time i.e. for marriages that are fixed(given the bridal due) before the revelation of Qur'an.

here's the translation of 5:5 as I understand the verse,
"This day (all) the good things are made lawful for you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste women from among the believers and the chaste women from among those who have been given the Book before you; when you have given them their bridal due, marrying not fornicating nor taking them for secret concubines; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers"

And the Qur'an says,
"O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Nazarenes/Christians as allies, for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from among you is one of them. God does not guide the wicked people." [5:51]

Shalom / peace ...

It doesn't say before the Quran's revelation..... you have interpolated this.

Secondly .... the Quran says not to take awliya ONLY with those that are trouble makers and ridicule the religion..... you have taken one verse and missed out the clarifying verse 5:57.

As mentioned by brother Joseph in the link below .....

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=260

005:057
"O ye who believe! take not for friends / allies / protectors (awliyaa) those who take your religion for a mockery or sport / ridicule or fun (huzuwan wala'iban), whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject faith; but fear ye God, if ye have faith (indeed)"

The same word 'awliyaa' has been used but the context has been clearly elucidated against those who are deemed 'trouble-makers'.

Those who have never shown any difficulty or animosity whether from the People of the Book or Disbelievers, one is only expected to show them kindness and deal with them justly.

060:008
"God does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely God loves the doers of justice"

[Mohammed]

Are you saying that believers can marry today's Jews and Christians even if they are not believing in the Qur'an?

Why 'people of the book' not mentioned in other marriage verses like 24:32, 4:25, 2:221 etc.?

What do you think about this?

5:82
You will find the people with the greatest animosity towards those who believe are the Jews and those who are polytheists; and you will find the closest in affection to those who believe are those who said: “We are Nazarenes/Christians;” that is because among them are Priests and Monks, and they are not arrogant.

5:83
And if they hear what was sent down to the messenger you see their eyes flooding with tears, for what they have known as the truth, they say: “Our Lord, we believe, so record us with the witnesses.”

So as they believed in the Qur'an, they will have Swalat, Fasting in Ramadan, Hajj etc. right? i.e. they are no more Nazarenes/Christians.

5:84
“And why should we not believe in God and what has come to us of the truth? And we yearn that our Lord admits us with the righteous people.”

And your last part(quote) is off here. Am talking about marriage

[Duster]

If very strict conditions are met and the Christians are not Trinitarian ...but something like Unitarians and do not ridicule Islam .... then why not? Why is this such a surprise to you when the Quran doesn't forbid it?

Did you read the arguments in the article below???

http://quransmessage.com/articles/marriage%20with%20people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm

Why do you expect Allah to mention certain things in certain verses of your choosing when he has taken care of the matter in other verses that you refuse to accept?....

[Mohammed]

...but something like Unitarians ...

What does this means?? What is your definition of a believer?

Btw you didn't answer my questions. Each to their own.

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu 3alykum

I concur with brother Duster and would like to clarify a little more as I think we need to go back a step as in the main most Muslims or a lot of them think that there is no believers or submitters from amongst the Jews and the Christian. This is usually makes the message a little hard to understand when one is under that impression.

As you will notice throughout the Quran, the Jews and the Christian at the time of the prophet are mentioned in different situations and the Quran often exposes their conditions whether it was the believers or the disbelievers who claimed or inherited Christianity or Judaism at that time.

What I mean as believers are those who followed Islam. As Islam was always a system of God which He ordained on all the prophets and messengers. Don't focus on the Arabic term but focus on the equivalent meaning that the prophets would of understood Islam as and it's principles. So there would of been believers who God would of been pleased with and would of regarded them as those who followed a right course shortly before the Qurans appearance. If they were Arabic speaking Jews or Christians they would of considered the system as "Islam". If they were Hebrew they would of had a equivalent term in that language.

42:13 "The same religion / system (Arabic: Deen) has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah and that which We have sent by inspiration to thee and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions in it: to those who worship other things than God, hard is the (way) to which you call them. God chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him)"

It's clear also that God has used their actions and characteristics as an example to guide humanity through out the Quran so that the next generations would take heed from their good and wrong doings.

4:26 Allah would explain to you and guide you by the examples of those who were before you, and would turn to you in mercy. Allah is Knower, Wise.

That being said imagine today amongst those who claim to be Muslims.

Are they all alike?

I'm sure you would agree that they are "not" but they all call them selves Muslims.

3:113-114 "Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand: They rehearse the verses of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten in good deeds: They are in the ranks of the righteous"


I also would encourage you read this article by brother Joseph first as to see what the Quran has to say about them which would later on clarify which Jews and Christians God is speaking about regarding marriage as context is key.

Insha'Allah this helps.

Peace

People of the Book
http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/people of the book FM3.htm

[Mohammed]

Wa'laikum salaam/peace,

3:113-114 "Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand: They rehearse the verses of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten in good deeds: They are in the ranks of the righteous"

see the verses 5:83-84 which I quoted, can't you see a connection?

3:19
That truly the dheen at God, (is) the islam/submission/surrender, and those who were given The Book did not differ/disagree/dispute, except from after what (that) the knowledge came to them, out of jealousy/oppression between them, and who disbelieves with God's signs/verses, so that God (is) swift in reckoning.

48:28
He is who sent His messenger with the guidance and the truths' dheen to make it apparent/visible/overcome on/over the dheen all of it, and enough/sufficient with God (as) a witness.

3:85
And whoever seeks other than the islam/submission/surrender (as) a dheen, so (it) will not be accepted from him, and he (is) in the end from the losers.

After reading this, what's your understanding of a disbeliever? If one (e.g. one from people of the book) not believing in the Qur'an, what will you call him?

[Duster]

Shalom / peace Mohammed...

I mean no disrespect to you but i would really suggest. ....that if you are going to debate  or share material on this forum.......that you have some familiarity with the articles and content on this site as the points you raise have already been addressed many many times in different ways ......And you simply can't say 'Each to their own' and simply sign off and not expect to be challenged...otherwise what is the point of being here???

If the message has not reached someone properly....they can't just be called a disbeliever ...they have to be convinced first with clear arguments and then reject the message to be called a disbeliever. Only Allah can judge when that happens......,2 articles that i recommend reading. ..

Kufr from a Quran's view - http://quransmessage.com/articles/understanding%20kufr%20FM3.htm
Itmam ul hujja - http://quransmessage.com/articles/itmam%20FM3.htm

With regards 48:28 ... this is a reference to 'false religions''.....People of the book that follow their religion properly are not following a false religion ....you really need to study this carefully ,...the verses are clear ....

Here is a great post by brother Joseph on this ....

Same deen different shariah -
https://m.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/1421791604624629

[Mohammed]

peace Duster,

If the message has not reached someone properly....

We are talking about 'the people of the book'
and what the Qur'an says about them?

3:19
That truly the dheen at God, (is) the islam/submission/surrender, and those who were given The Book did not differ/disagree/dispute, except from after what (that) the knowledge came to them, out of jealousy/oppression between them, and who disbelieves with God's signs/verses, so that God (is) swift in reckoning.

5:77
Say: "You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your dheen, other than the truth, and do not follow a nation's self attractions for desires, they had misguided from before and they misguided many, and they misguided from the way's/path's middle/straightness."

[Important : This is a saying of the prophet to the people in the 7th century]

RED What are the other dheens?
No doubt, Just human desires !

BLUE  About which dheen the prophet is talking?  It’s clear from the verses 3:19, 42:13 etc.

and from 48:28 it's clear that the prophet came with truth's dheen and the Guidance (the Qur'an)

48:28
He is who sent His messenger with the guidance and the truths' dheen to make it apparent/visible/overcome on/over the dheen all of it, and enough/sufficient with God (as) a witness.

5:83-84
...“Our Lord, we believe, so record us with the witnesses.” “And why should we not believe in God and what has come to us of the truth?

Who said this? Were they not ‘the people of the book’?

Now think, is the term 'people of the book' applicable to today's Jews/Christians?(who do not follow the Qur'an)
[and do you think that all people today who say 'we follow the Qur'an' are in true dheen?]

[Duster]

Shalom /peace Mohammed

Did you even read the links I shared? If not, we are wasting our time ....

[Mohammed]

Shalom /peace Mohammed

Did you even read the links I shared? If not, we are wasting our time ....

peace Duster,

God gave you 'reason'. So before following others and their works verify for yourself, for your safety.
Take it as a humble advice to you and some other members of this forum.

[Hamzeh]

Peace Mohammed

Im sure the ones who have been sharing the articles with other brothers and sisters have gone through the articles with great research and have also taken other opinions in consideration before they share.

Also please understand and go review your work how many times you have been giving advice and conclusions on certain topics and then have come back and said you are wrong this is the correct meaning. You could of made false conclusions which some might of taken from you and left them in that thought while you had realized you were wrong but did not have the chance to correct them. This is a serious matter and you should not be tempering with the meaning of the verses without cross examining them before you have made up your mind with supporting verses. This is not how one teaches people. God did indeed give people reason and intellect Alhamdulila. But some times its better to read from those who have the ability to illustrate and share the message of the Quran Masha'Allah and compare them with others and choose the best meaning based on the verses of the Quran and the approach one takes through intellect, honesty, and academics.

39:018 "Those who listen to the Word (the Quran) and follow the best meaning in it / best of it (Arabic: fayattabi'una ahsanahu) those are the ones whom God has guided and those are the one's endowed with understanding (Arabic: Albabi)

The brother who started this site has his articles in detail and has correlated much of the topics together to illustrate the consistency of the Quran and its message Masha'Allah. He also follows up with questions being asked exhaustively for almost every topic from his critics. We have read the arguments and questioned them and also hear of other peoples opinions and we try to simply help by sharing what has been made evident to us and to try our best to see where the confusion is and try to resolve it Insha'Allah.

I personally do not think one should try to be giving conclusions if one has not taken the effort to study the Quran in a whole and has studied it thoroughly. This would be evident by the persons speeches, writings, arguments etc.
I think this site should most times be used more appropriately for challenging the arguments made in the articles rather than throwing out messages that are hard to support and confuses people. That leaves us with the problem of "where does one begin to argue from?"

As a result as brother Duster has kindly suggested that you read the articles to get an understanding of who are the people of the book?, who is a kaffir?, an article that illustrates that the "dean" is the same but the "sharias" are different, etc

I agree with brother Duster as it could get very hard to respond to questions that are not correlated with the message of the Quran, so often we understand that a brother or sister is struggling with a topic because of a small issue so we refer them to a article that could resolve that thought and straighten out the full message and make it overall consistent. This is not wrong and is not to be deemed as following others without verification. Sometimes there is no need to re-define truth when first it cannot be put any better or when it cannot be proven false.



Regarding the topic now I would also like to make a couple more comments that might resolve our thoughts incase they were a little unclear,

Yes we do believe that the people of the book should also believe in the Quran.

But those that have held fast to their own scripture and follow it correctly and have faith in it which there is arguably many, are still muslims. How could they be not? They are believing in God's words. Those same believers would arguably also believe in my humble opinion in the Quran. How could they not? They have believed in their scripture based on the arguments so why not the Quran, it is a confirmation of what is with them. They might not call them selves "muslims" but they would be deemed equivalent in God's view.

These are explicit in these verses,

2.62 "Indeed, those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
 
5.69 "Indeed, those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Sabians and the Christians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."


There is also disbelievers from the Jews and Christians who do not even believe in their Scriptures. They say they do, but they don't.

5:41 O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you. They distort words beyond their [proper] usages, saying "If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware." But he for whom Allah intends fitnah - never will you possess [power to do] for him a thing against Allah . Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

5:42 [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, devourers of [what is] unlawful. So if they come to you, [O Muhammad], judge between them or turn away from them. And if you turn away from them - never will they harm you at all. And if you judge, judge between them with justice. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

5:43 But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah ? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.

If Jews or Christians who deny the truth after the knowledge comes to them then they would be disbelievers. There is also warnings to them in the Quran as you have kindly shared as well through some of the verses. We do not deny this. They are expected to believe in the final Scripture. However please note that believing in the final Scripture and abiding by its laws are two different things. Even todays Muslims, if a misconception or ideology or doctrine has been made clear to them and the truth has come to them with knowledge and do not accept it, one maybe arguably stepping on the side of kuffur.

Now regarding marriage with the people of the book, the context of verse 5:5 is clear. These are people of the book that are following the true deen. This is also verified by how we are able to eat from their food and they may eat from our food(two different categories are considered), other wise if God had commanded them to give up their names and laws, their food would arguably not be lawful for us and would have command them to only eat from the food that has been made newly permissible to the new believers. But the verse is speaking to both the new believers and the people of the book. It is explaining to the people of the book that the restrictions(for example the fat of the animals6:146) that has been once imposed on them is now lifted off them as they are believers in the Quran. But this also gives them the freedom to remain true to their covenant to God through their respective scriptures and follow what was given to them. 5:44, 5:45.

Peace