Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Marriage with the People of the Book

Offline Duster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 427
    • View Profile
Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2019, 05:59:24 PM »
Shalom /peace Mohammed

Did you even read the links I shared???? If not, we are wasting our time ....

peace Duster,

God gave you 'reason'. So before following others and their works verify for yourself, for your safety.
Take it as a humble advice to you and some other members of this forum.

It is very fortunate that br Hamzeh has responded to you so nicely ...as I am no way as gifted as him to give such a powerful well articulated response as he has ....which I agree with totally.......My response would have been a lot harsher...
.

So now you take my humble advice too ..... don't think that thinking minds on this forum are going to take any sort of nonsensical claims seriously..... why should anyone follow you blindly???? I have considered your claims and I find many of them nonsensical.... what you want me to do then? Go against my reason and judgement and still believe you anyway? Don't I have the right to reject someone's claims if I find them weak????

The day you can provide me a deep ... comprehensive body of work that covers the entire spectrum of topics that the owner of this site has .... then start talking if you want to be taken seriously...ok?  ....before you criticise others bring something that is persuasive first ... not half baked ideas with isolated verses on certain topics that don't stand up to close examination .....

If you can give out advice ....learn to take it too ....

Shalom / peace ...

Offline Athman

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 143
    • View Profile
Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2019, 06:22:48 PM »
Dear Mohammed,

Peace be upon you,

May I share some thoughts about your issues of concern which you could consider looking into. This is notwithstanding that brothers Duster and Hamzeh have continuously offered to respond to your contentions. Hopefully this is acceptable with brother Joseph. I hope he will respond to your contentions to his article where necessary.

You share:

but I think this is only applicable for that time i.e. for marriages that are fixed(given the bridal due) before the revelation of Qur'an.

here's the translation of 5:5 as I understand the verse,
"This day (all) the good things are made lawful for you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste women from among the believers and the chaste women from among those who have been given the Book before you; when you have given them their bridal due, marrying not fornicating nor taking them for secret concubines; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers"


In my view, I do admit that ‘ataytumu’ - ‘you have given’ (5:5) truly alludes to a perfect action yes especially as emphasized by the 2nd person plural perfect verb ‘atay’ - ‘have given.’ However, one should also not overlook the timely provision which the adverb ‘when’ - ‘idha’ comes with. It certainly would have been referring to a ‘future’ event (the payment of a bridal due) especially when we consider that there are other ‘provisions’ that were being made lawful as mentioned prior to that in that same verse. It could be argued, from that verse alone, that a possibility is even hinted as to the absence of such a bridal due (ujura) arrangement in the manner the Qur’an would have expected it, prior to such a general permission (halal) to the believers.

On the other hand, if one is to understand that the provision of marrying from the chaste women (muhswanat) of the People of the Book to the believers only applied to those already given their bridal due, in that case then, what entails the new permission, what entails the new marriage arrangement that is being alluded to and in which sense is it a new arrangement? With the same line of thought, one is also bound to define/ identify the category of People of the Book whose ‘food’ (thwa’amu) is permitted to the believers for consumption. What prior allegiances or contracts would have to have bound the believers with such a category for them to enjoy each other’s foods in the same manner as with those already given a bridal due for the issue of marriage?

You share:

So as they believed in the Qur'an, they will have Swalat, Fasting, Hajj etc. right? i.e. they are no more Nazarenes/Christians.

Not necessarily. Believing in the Qur’an does not outright tantamount to rejecting other scriptures, ceasing to be followers of older scriptures nor not being the People of the Book, Jews nor Christians. If one does so, it would simply be a matter of choice, not a 'must do' thing as you seem to insist. Even before they believe in the Qur’an, they still are bound to perform such religious practices as swalaat, fasting, Hajj, etc. Just not the way you seem to be expecting them to perform them, that is, the way followers of Qur’an and believers under Quran’s guidance are supposed to, to every detail.

As brother Duster has tried to show you the context of the implication of such ‘isolated’ verses as 5:51, further referring you to brother Joseph’s article on the same [1], brother Hamzeh has also nicely tried to rightly broaden the scope of the ‘descriptive’ term ‘Islam’ (not a ‘linguistic’ label/ tag) which actually brings us under one ‘roof’ (Islam) and in fact ‘describes’ us (Qur’an followers and followers of older scriptures) altogether (muslimeen).

In as much as the contextually timely bound verses 5:82-84 are used to infer that those Christians that would likely be closer to Qur’an believers are those who would proclaim to have believed in the Qur’an or would shed tears when its strongly captivating verses are read, it has to be maintained that upon such an admission, they are said to be admitting to surely have already been muslims prior (28:53) and even so, amongst the believers/ followers of the Qur’an and themselves, each people has been prescribed their own law (shir’atan) and method (minhajan) to be tested in them so each is supposed to race in good works (arguably as per their own law and method) for it is to God where all shall finally return for reckoning (5:48).

Therefore, while verses 24:32 and 4:25 might contextually have possibly been with reference to women amongst believers/ followers of the Qur’an, verse 2:221 broadens the scope of the permissible category as those chosen with a ‘primary’ determination of correct and pure belief while verse 5:5 specifically permits those from among the People of the Book arguably with a ‘primary’ signification of the ‘correct’ belief in ‘one’ God as in 2:221. Thus, in light of 42:13 and 5:48, verses 3:19, 3:85 and 48:28 would not be referring to those believing souls amongst the People of the Book who still maintain their stance towards following their scriptures even after accepting the veracity of the message of the Qur’an alongside its divine origin claim.

You ask:

Now think, is the term 'people of the book' applicable to today's Jews/Christians?(who do not follow the Qur'an)

If by ‘do not follow the Qur’an’ you mean not adhering to the ‘law’ (shir’at) and ‘method’ (minhaj) prescribed by the Qur’an for believers then yes, as long as those particular Jews/ Christians do adopt the ‘law’ (shir’at) and ‘method’ (minhaj) proffered by their scriptures as it ought to be adopted - with the Qur’an as a check/ criterion (muhaymin, 5:48) and as the overall criterial authority (furqan, 25:1).

You then append:

[and do you think that all people today who say 'we follow the Qur'an' are in true dheen?]

Certainly not all. You can refer to brother Hamzeh’s response above. See also verse 3:167 where God sees to the condition of hypocrites who conceal what is in their hearts to proclaim false confessions. In my humble opinion, verses 3:113-115 do not only apply to the People of the Book but generally to any group of believing souls including believers/ followers of the Qur’an.

Finally you share:

So before following others and their works verify for yourself, for your safety.

I would in this case again share to you brother Hamzeh’s advice to you above regarding this. As brother Duster has shared above, it is in the first place at best contradictory and at worst, dishonest, to jot down statements whose undertones appear to insinuate blind-following of others, while again indirectly giving an implication to be followed of ones own thoughts, obviously, blindly. The strength of an argument/ thought/ idea used/ referred to is what makes it to either be accepted or rejected hence dismissed/ denounced or referred to/ be used. Therefore, presenting or referring one to somebody else’s exposition, discourse or thoughts does not mean that one is blindly ‘following others and have not verified the information, for their own safety’ (sharing brother Hamzeh’s advice to you is a good example of that by the way). Again, if in future I happen in another thread to refer to a given argument that you brother Mohammed raise in this thread today which I find convincing and evidenced from the Qur’an, surely, as you may agree, I should then not be criticized of not using my intellect, my ‘reasoning’ ability, not verifying the information for myself nor will I be ‘following’ your arguments blindly. Kindly think about this.

I hope that my comments shall be received with the respect with which it is imparted.

Regards,
Athman.

REFERENCE:
[1]. Taking unbelievers as friends to avoid harm

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=260

Offline Mohammed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2019, 06:41:07 PM »
The day you can provide me a deep ... comprehensive body of work that covers the entire spectrum of topics that the owner of this site has ....

peace Duster,

Why are you still waiting for people's [creatures] work, while The Creator's work (The Qur'an) is in your hand!?

8:29
You, you those who believed if you are aware of God (fear and obey), He makes/creates for you a criterion(Separation of Right and Wrong), and He covers/substitutes from you your sins, and forgives for you, and God (is owner) of the grace/favour/blessing, the great.

No offence intended. It was just an advice, you always have your choice…
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Duster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 427
    • View Profile
Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2019, 06:55:56 PM »
The day you can provide me a deep ... comprehensive body of work that covers the entire spectrum of topics that the owner of this site has ....

peace Duster,

Why are you still waiting for people's [creatures] work, while The Creator's work (The Qur'an) is in your hand!?

8:29
You, you those who believed if you are aware of God (fear and obey), He makes/creates for you a criterion(Separation of Right and Wrong), and He covers/substitutes from you your sins, and forgives for you, and God (is owner) of the grace/favour/blessing, the great.

No offence intended. It was just an advice, you always have your choice…


Aren't you a creature?  On that basis why should I listen to you? ......

So yes, the Qur a'an is in my hand .,,and with that thought ....i reject your claims because I don't think they are in line with it ....


No offence intended either. ...

Offline Duster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 427
    • View Profile
Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2019, 07:00:27 PM »
Shalom / peace brothers Athman and Hamzeh ....... just wanted to quickly say that along with certain other members of this forum ....how much i enjoy reading your posts and arguments ......i wish i could emulate both of  yours and br. Joseph's patience and immaculate style  of delivery ..... but i don't think i have the ingredients  :-[. ...but I'm learning  8)......May Allah bless you both .....

Offline Duster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 427
    • View Profile
Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2019, 07:19:03 PM »
Therefore, presenting or referring one to somebody else’s exposition, discourse or thoughts does not mean that one is blindly ‘following others and have not verified the information, for their own safety’ (sharing brother Hamzeh’s advice to you is a good example of that by the way). Again, if in future I happen in another thread to refer to a given argument that you brother Mohammed raise in this thread today which I find convincing and evidenced from the Qur’an, surely, as you may agree, I should then not be criticized of not using my intellect, my ‘reasoning’ ability, not verifying the information for myself nor will I be ‘following’ your arguments blindly. Kindly think about this

This is such a great and important point ....

Just to support this ... i even noted br. Joseph refer to another member of this forum - br Imran Faruqui and gave a reference from him ....even though br Joseph has clear differences of academic views with him ....this doesn't mean anyone is following anyone blindly  ....

The topic was about Dhul Qurnain .....http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2742.0

I think after years of following a religion and finding out things aren't what they seemed. .some people  completely lose trust in learned people or the clergy class ...so what they end up doing is distrusting everybody even if the arguments are excellent .....this is a very sad outcome ....there is that saying about baby and bathwater....




Offline Hamzeh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 496
    • View Profile
Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2019, 12:06:26 AM »
Asalamu 3alykum

Thank you brother Duster it means a lot and I'm humbled to see that an intelligent brother says that Masha'Allah. May God bless you

I as well really enjoy reading your comments and brother Athman and along side the other brothers and sister's Alhamdulila and may God strengthen us with one another for His sake Insha'Allah.

I thank the Lord for having me meet great people like yourselves who Im able to read their comments and learn the good techniques you use to argue in kind and direct ways which before I had no clue. Alhamdulila.

I would have to say that I found you very patient in much of your responses and have clearly steered people in the right direction after long discussions Alhamdulila. May the Lord Grant you and us patience Insha'Allah.

Brother Mohammed although sometimes we might not all see eye to eye I do appreciate that your giving your inputs and striving and relying on God Insha'Allah. As brothers and sisters in Islam I try to see how we can be united under a right interpretations as a whole rather than having way to many personal interprations that dont go to far and are negated by shedding tension on certain clear verses.

I works in this site most of the time have related articles at the bottom of each article which help to get ideas about relating topics.

As some of us here have been through lots of the repeated arguments we simply try to steer a person to an article or discussion that might Insha'Allah clear some confusion.

It's really important to be familiar with other topics as well so that when learning ir reading about topic the others are also in your mind Insha'Allah. This will give you hints if that interpretation will pass. May God bless you

Salam

Offline Truth Seeker

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 434
    • View Profile
Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2019, 02:58:00 AM »
Salaam Hamzeh,

I totally agree with your sentiments and thank you to those who responded here, putting so much time and effort into their comments.

Offline Hamzeh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 496
    • View Profile
Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2019, 03:14:26 AM »
Asalamu 3alykum

Although I did not mention you by name but thank you as well sister Truth Seeker for all your efforts and its very nice to read your comments which are thoughtful and remind us all of the messages of the Quran from time to time . May God bless you.

I although would like to note that the Quran has acknowledged in some way that there is people who have gained or should gain sound knowledge/deeper understanding of the religion/system/deen that they may at least warn/educate/illustrate/caution/teach those who did not take that roll on.

I would compare those who have taken that roll on, with those who have went out to fight and sacrificed their lives and have put tremendous efforts.

9:122 And the believers should not all go out to fight. Of every troop of them, a party only should go forth, that they (who are left behind) may gain sound knowledge in religion, and that they may warn their folk when they return to them, so that they may beware.

So there is nothing wrong with learning from those who have grasped the message Insha'Allah.

May God bless those who strive in His sake Insha'Allah.

Salam

Offline Truth Seeker

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 434
    • View Profile
Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2019, 03:36:26 AM »
Hamzeh,

I tend to try and give an overall picture in my posts and do feel that other members are much better equipped at giving the detailed and balanced responses.

I think you have made a pertinent point when you said:
Quote
I although would like to note that the Quran has acknowledged in some way that there is people who have gained or should gain sound knowledge/deeper understanding of the religion/system/deen that they may at least warn/educate/illustrate/caution/teach those who did not take that roll on.

We have many members here who have a deep knowledge and understanding of the scripture and it is commendable that they spend their time trying to impart their wisdom to help others. Much more needed I feel in this current climate, where so many people find themselves confused with Islam and are sadly on the verge of leaving this wonderful Deen.

Offline Hamzeh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 496
    • View Profile
Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2019, 05:21:59 AM »
I think at times an overall wrapped up picture of a topic is just right to some seekers and that all they were looking for. But I must say I also find your comments are well detailed and balance and I consider your responses and comments very valuable. Insha'Allah you will keep up the efforts and may God reward you for them.

I have also noted with myself and others where we had tried to elucidate to others some of brothers Joseph's articles but may of misrepresented them by bringing in another point and it was with respect that he had also given us his insight were we went wrong which widened and broadened the topic to which makes other things even more clear Masha'Allah.

So my point was earlier to brother Mohammad that the Quran does require a people in a whole that study, share, spread, and teach the message and also must agree on fundamentals and give and take with eachother to establish a best interpretation as possible. That to form a just balanced community there is nothing wrong with learning from another.

Salam

Offline Mohammed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2019, 04:45:58 PM »
Wa 'alaikum salaam/peace, all

The Qur’an is/was the Guidance for all people, Qur'an revealed confirming to what the people had/believed/followed before it i.e. the scriptures (guidances) of the former prophets. So, those who followed the former scriptures would definitely believe and accept the Qur’an as the truth and guidance.

And I'm curious to know that what's you people's understanding of Guidance ?

2:38-41
We said: "Drop/decline from it, all together, then whenever guidance comes to you from Me, so who followed My guidance, so no fear/fright on them and nor they be sad/grieving."

And those who disbelieved and denied with Our verses/evidences, those are the fire's owners/company, they (are) in it eternally.

You Israel's sons and daughters, remember My blessing, which I blessed on you, and fulfill/complete with My promise/contract, I fulfill/complete with your promise/contract, and (only)Me so be terrified/monkish of Me.

And believe with what I descended, confirming to what (is) with you, and do not be (the) first disbeliever with it, and do not buy/volunteer with My verses/evidences  a small/littleprice, and (only) Me, so fear and obey Me(taqwa).

Thus as the guidance came, they believed
5:83-84
...“Our Lord, we believe, so record us with the witnesses.” “And why should we not believe in God and what has come to us of the truth?


You share:

“So as they believed in the Qur'an, they will have Swalat, Fasting, Hajj etc. right? i.e. they are no more Nazarenes/Christians.”

Not necessarily...

I disagree with you. Believing in the Book means accepting it as the truth and guidance. Therefore, one who believes in it should follow it.[this is the same case in many of the Qur’an alone followers today; they don’t know what is FAITH actually].

For example, consider 5:6, how your Logic works here if one believes in the Qur'an? because it's a command to the believers of the Qur'an/guidance !

You, you those who believed, when/if you started/got up to the swalat, so wash with water your faces, and your hands to the elbows, and rub/wipe with your heads and your feet to the two joints/ankle bones…


Secondly .... the Quran says not to take awliya ONLY with those that are trouble makers and ridicule the religion..... you have taken one verse and missed out the clarifying verse 5:57.

As mentioned by brother Joseph in the link below .....

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=260

Regarding 5:51 & 57

Based on my Qur’an studies, Jews and Nazarenes/Christians were sects among 'the people of the Bookwho followed their desires. See 2:120-121, 2:140, 9:30, 5:18 etc.
And among the people of the Book (other than the sects) there were wrong doers that’s what verse 5:57 talking about. [ like those in among today's Qur'an followers ('people of the Qur'an')]


I agree with brother Duster as it could get very hard to respond to questions that are not correlated with the message of the Quran...

If you have the truth with you, you can easily answer such questions..


And regarding verses like 2:62, 5:69 etc.

5:69
That those who believed and those who guided/Jews, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes/Christians, who believed with God and the Day the Last, and worked correct/righteous deeds, so no fear on them, and nor they be sad/grieving.

If one believed in God, he would also believe in God's revelations! (See 2:285) Therefore, 5:69 could be for those who were in such sects (Jews, Christians sabians etc.) before the Qur’an’s revelation? Why not? [God's message of truth has always been the same-ponder over 48:28].

and one verse before 5:69 (5:58)
Say: "You The Book's people, you are not on a thing, until you keep up the Torah and the Injeel, and what was descended to you from your Lord." And what was descended to you(Muhammad) from your Lord increases many of them tyranny/arrogance, and disbelief, so do not grieve/sadden on the nation, the disbelieving.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Mohammed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2019, 05:38:27 PM »
Last verse quoted is 5:68 not 58
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Mohammed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2019, 07:25:08 PM »
Based on my Qur’an studies, Jews and Nazarenes/Christians were sects among 'the people of the Bookwho followed their desires. See 2:120-121, 2:140, 9:30, 5:18 etc.

i.e. like those today who follows their desires other than the Qur'an
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Duster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 427
    • View Profile
Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2019, 11:57:37 PM »

And regarding verses like 2:62, 5:69 etc.

5:69
That those who believed and those who guided/Jews, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes/Christians, who believed with God and the Day the Last, and worked correct/righteous deeds, so no fear on them, and nor they be sad/grieving.

If one believed in God, he would also believe in God's revelations! (See 2:285) Therefore, 5:69 could be for those who were in such sects (Jews, Christians sabians etc.) before the Qur’an’s revelation? Why not? [God's message of truth has always been the same-ponder over 48:28].


Shalom / peace....What are you talking about?

How did you deduce the statement:

If one believed in God, he would also believe in God's revelations! ]


What has believing in God got to do with believing in all revelations? ....There could easily be those that believe in God but haven't been convinced of the revelations that came after them because ....they haven't come across them in a persuasive way or simply haven't read them.... but they can still believe in God!!

In my view ....this is how your interpolations are leading your interpretations astray!