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Offline Athman

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Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2019, 08:59:56 PM »
Dear Mohammed,

Peace,

Kindly see my responses below to your contentions:

The Qur’an is/was the Guidance for all people, Qur'an revealed confirming to what the people had/believed/followed before it i.e. the scriptures (guidances) of the former prophets. So, those who followed the former scriptures would definitely believe and accept the Qur’an as the truth and guidance.

And I'm curious to know that what's you people's understanding of Guidance ?


RESPONSE 1:

As referenced earlier, in verse (5:48), it is pointed out that each of us (in this case the Abrahamic faiths) has been assigned their own law (shir'atan) and method (wa minhajan). With respect to verses 2:38-42 that you share as regards what ‘guidance’ (huda) entails, it was never the intention of God to leave humankind remain as one nation (walau la kalimatu sabaqat min rabbika) [10:19] but we have been diversified in laws - ‘shir’at’ and methods - ‘minhaj’(collectively guidance - ‘huda’) [2:38] laid out within scriptures/ revelations/ signs (ayat) [7:35, 20:123-127] to be tested with them (5:48). Therefore, guidance in the form of revelations is not only found within the Qur’an but also in older scriptures as revealed to the People of the Book.

As a check (muhaymin), the Qur'an therefore confirms (muswaddiqan) previous scriptures sent to the Children of Israel (2:41), clarifies and corrects them (litubayyina) where necessary (16:64), explains them (watafswila) where warranted (10:37), reveals that which has been obfuscated (mimma kuntum tukhfuna) and inserted (yaktubuna al-kitaba bi aydihim) [2:79] while still overlooking (waya’fu) much in them (5:15). Thus, the People of the Book are to follow all the teachings in their scriptures in truth (5:68) using the Qur'an as the main discerning tool (2:41). It is in this sense how the Qur’an acts as a ‘guidance’ for them as they remain observant of the contract in 7:35 and 7:157 (wanaswaruuhu wattaba’u an-nura al-ladhi un-zila ma’ahu) as well as 2:100-101. This is still with a view to stay in line with what is expected of each Abrahamic faith (5:48) as decreed by God for specific reasons (5:48, 11:118).

I disagree with you. Believing in the Book means accepting it as the truth and guidance. Therefore, one who believes in it should follow it.[this is the same case in many of the Qur’an alone followers today; they don’t know what is FAITH actually].”

RESPONSE 2:

I do respect your prerogative to disagree. However, as far as what you excerpted from my earlier comments is concerned, I am quite surprised that you seem to forgo the rest of my sentiments in their full remit. I once again disagree with your take on what is to be understood as ‘believing’ (amanuhu) or ‘following’ (wattaba’u) the Prophet (s.a.w) or Qur’an. Kindly see my position in RESPONSE 1.


For example, consider 5:6, how your Logic works here if one believes in the Qur'an? because it's a command to the believers of the Qur'an/guidance !”


RESPONSE 3:

Respectfully, I see this as a strawman’s argument especially considering who the primary audience of the Qur’an is. ‘O you who believe’ (ya ayyuha a-ladhina amanu) is a popular Qur’anic address to the believers/ followers of the Qur’an. Other familiar addresses are employed for other different audiences. There is even a general address for people in general (ya ayyuha an-nas).

On the other hand, when it is a direct address to factions amongst the People of the Book, the Qur’an does mention so (e.g, 2:122, 3:65, 3:70-71, 3:113-115, 4:171, 5:15-19). In the verses you shared (2:62, 5:69), the Qur’an even distinguishes between believers of the Qur’an (alladhina amanu) and those of older scriptures (man amana billahi...). Those who disbelieve in their scriptures amongst the People of the Book are the losers (2:121). However, those who do believe in their scriptures and all the revelations sent to them (5:68) amongst People of the Book as do the believers of the Qur’an (2:136) do share a common belief in religion with them (2:137). This does not however preclude the expectation of each of them to uphold the religious code of conduct and worship as stipulated to them each in their own respective scripture (5:48).

Hopefully that clarifies.

Regards,
Athman.

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2019, 11:53:34 PM »
RESPONSE 1:

As referenced earlier, in verse (5:48), it is pointed out that each of us (in this case the Abrahamic faiths) has been assigned their own law (shir'atan) and method (wa minhajan)...

You can forget/ignore/hide verses in your post, but you can't make readers blind.
Read 5:48 & 49 carefully and completely. Consider this reply to you as my last response.

salaam
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Athman

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Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2019, 04:00:02 AM »
Dear Mohammed,

Peace be upon you,

Kindly see verses 5:48 and 5:49 cited below:

"And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a watcher over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation, but so that He tests you in what He has given you; so race in [doing] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ." [Qur'an, Al-Ma'idah 5:48]

"And judge, [O Muhammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient." [Qur'an, Al-Ma'idah 5:49]

Dear brother, with all due respect, I am somehow quite disappointed that you seem not ready to indulge into an engaging discussion.

Respectfully, you appear to have a narrowed interpretation of certain Qur'anic verses based on a confined ambit of narratives within which it is made. I trust that I have given you an apt interpretation of the verses under question. I would have been readier and more willing to engage with and at best accept an alternative one if there could have been. As far as goes your interpretation above, I would humbly reiterate my disagreement but resort to my understanding as given in my earlier responses.

I am otherwise sorry if I appeared to have ignored what you seem to have noticed to have been from my side. I however had no intention to nor does it sincerely appear so if read within the whole context of supporting verses. With all the related verses in view, I still would understand and interpret the verses 5:48-49 in the manner I have. We can just agree to disagree if this is conclusively in contrary to what you do and will ever do interpret those verses the way you do.

Similarly, I humbly have to conclude my responses to you with this one on this particular matter.

Regards,
Athman.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2019, 07:34:51 AM »
Asalamu 3alykum brother Athman

Masha'Allah that was a very good detailed response.

You brought my attention on the verses and the highlighted parts and want to see if you agree if you don't mind.

What is your understanding of the part of the verse that says "and judge between them by what Allah(swt) has reaveled"? It is said once in 5:48  And once in 5:49

Do you think its between the People which goes back to the context in verse 5:42 those who came to the prophet for judgment ? That's what I understand it to be

And if so would you say that it is expected that Jews and Christians would also need to judge by what they were given by using the Quran as a criterion regarding their books and would judge in their countries who ever abides therein including Muslims?

Salam

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2019, 03:56:02 PM »
I forgot to mention 22:67 (one of the misinterpreted verse)

22:67 For every nation We made a ritual or method of worship they are practicing the rituals or methods of worship, so they do not dispute/quarrel with you in the matter/affair, And call upon your Lord, for you are on a guidance which is straight.

22:68 And if they argued/disputed with you, then say: “God is fully aware of what you make/do."

22:69 "God judges/rules between you (on) the Resurrection Day, in what you were in it differing/disagreeing."

salaam
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2019, 05:36:54 PM »
And do not misunderstand the FAITH of traditional Muslims. They (not all) are following the commands like 5:6 because they born in a traditional Muslim family. The real FAITH is when one (from any religion) realising the truth and accepting the truth. So, as he realising/believing in the Qur’an, he follows the commands like 5:6. (O you who believe...)
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Duster

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Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2019, 05:49:58 PM »
And do not misunderstand the FAITH of traditional Muslims. They (not all) are following the commands like 5:6 because they born in a traditional Muslim family. The real FAITH is when one (from any religion) realising the truth and accepting the truth. So, as he realising/believing in the Qur’an, he follows the commands like 5:6. (O you who believe...)

What is your point? You are not making sense to me anymore ....Just quoting random verses and highlighting words with colour is not helping ....

Offline Duster

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Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2019, 05:56:26 PM »
RESPONSE 1:

As referenced earlier, in verse (5:48), it is pointed out that each of us (in this case the Abrahamic faiths) has been assigned their own law (shir'atan) and method (wa minhajan)...

You can forget/ignore/hide verses in your post, but you can't make readers blind.
Read 5:48 & 49 carefully and completely. Consider this reply to you as my last response.

salaam

Mohammed ....

I think you need to revisit the Qur'an's verses again and study the Qur'an again....it is not brother Athman that is making readers blind .... but you are thrusting weird interpretations on to clear verses .... your interpretation is way off .... each to their own I guess ....

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2019, 06:17:10 PM »
Peace Mohammed

Why dont you think if it this way for instance regarding the verse you quoted 22:67-69

Imagine putting yourself in the prophets place for a moment, realizing the religion has already been bestowed on a former people who are amongst you of the Jews and Christain Arabs and God has now given you guidance but the guidance has different rituals, a different direction of prayer, a different way and time of fasting, etc from them.

These people who are amongst you are from those who recieved the scripture and have their own rites and methods like their own direction of prayer their own food restrictions, the Sabbath day, etc.

The ones who don't know better are trying to convince you that you must obey them and follow what was given to them and yours is not the way because they cannot fathom that God has allowed different rites and methods. Just like how they also accused eachother of having nothing to stand upon and for example the Jews would say to the Christians say nothing true and vice versa 2:113 or they both would say that if your are not a Jew or a Christian you do not enter heaven(2:111). But look at the verses and see how God replied to them through the Quran.

So as you can see these arguments were also before the Quran was revealed.

Therefor God is making it clear that the rites and methods He has bestowed upon you is a guidance that is straight. This is not to say that those who recieved the religion/system are not in a straight path. Of course what was given to them from God is of a surety from God also.

The rites given to Moses and Jesus (pbut) are different from each other and different from prophet Muhammad(pbuh) rites as well.

This could also be alluded to the prophets own people the polytheists as well who do not accept the rites and methods and only want to follow their own traditions.

Peace

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2019, 06:23:43 PM »
I am afraid also that this is true of what brother Duster have said. I'm starting to think you are not serious about this.

Quote
What is your point? You are not making sense to me anymore ....Just quoting random verses and highlighting words with colour is not helping ....

You have been taking some verses that are speaking about one thing and disregarding other clear commands that we as Muslims have to take heed of.


We have shares the verses that command the People of the Book to their own revelations from God. You have not attempted to give us a translation of what they mean. We also indicates that God has internationally and deliberately have each nation their own rites and methods so that it was His will to test us.

We also indicates and kindly showed you that God does not consider all.of them alike. There is some like this and some like that. Context will indicate who is who.

Peace

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2019, 10:10:58 AM »
And do not misunderstand the FAITH of traditional Muslims. They (not all) are following the commands like 5:6 because they born in a traditional Muslim family. The real FAITH is when one (from any religion) realising the truth and accepting the truth. So, as he realising/believing in the Qur’an, he follows the commands like 5:6. (O you who believe...)

I found some illogical claim which says that believers of God’s revelation /The Book(2:2)/The Qur’an doesn’t necessarily need to obey/follow the command ‘O you who believe’ (e.g. 5:6).
Just to clarify that I posted it. Perhaps they may think.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Athman

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Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2019, 04:12:33 PM »
Dear brother Hamzeh,

Wa alaikumus salaam,

Kindly see my humble thoughts below in response to your solicitation of an input.

"Do you think its between the People which goes back to the context in verse 5:42 those who came to the prophet for judgment ? That's what I understand it to be"

I do share such an understanding yes.

In such a context, for purposes of an admonition, the Prophet (pbuh) is given an option to 'turn away' (tu'ridhw) from them (Jews - al-ladhina hadu, 5:41) if he so wishes. If he otherwise opts to give a judgment (wa in hakamta), he is instructed to give a just one (bil qisthwi) which is however readily already to be found within the Taurat they possess in which are God's judgments - 'hukmu allahi' (5:43), guidance (hudan) and light (wa nurun) - 5:44.

Those from the Jews who do not judge according to what God revealed (bi ma an-zalallahu) of such judgments, guidance and light from the 'Taurat' as did their prophets (an-nabiyyuna), rabbis (ar-rabbaniyyuna) and scholars (al-ahbaru), they actually are the disbelievers (humu al-kafirun) - 5:44. Such instances of judgments/ laws (hukm) are outlined (5:45, life for a life...) and that those who do not rule according to such revealed judgments/ laws are the unjust (humu ad-dhwalimun).

In the footsteps of those previous prophets to the Children of Israel, Prophet Isa (pbuh) was sent with the 'Injeel' as a confirmation of the 'Taurat,' as a guidance (hudan), light (nurun) and counsel (maw'idhwatan) to the righteous (5:46) thus those who followed it were supposed to judge (walyahkum) according to what was revealed (bi ma an-zalallahu) of judgment in it (fihi) - 5:47.

Therefore, in light of this foregoing precept (5:43, 5:47), the Prophet (s.a.w) was supposed to judge the Jews and the Christians according to the Taurat and Gospel respectively, the Qur'an superseding them both altogether.

"What is your understanding of the part of the verse that says "and judge between them by what Allah(swt) has reaveled"? It is said once in 5:48  And once in 5:49"

'By what God has revealed' (bi ma an-zala llahu) in verses 5:48-49 in the context of judgment over People of the Book would still refer to 'what God has revealed' (bi ma an-zala llahu) for the Jews (5:44) as well as 'what God has revealed' (bi ma an-zala llahu) for the Christians (5:47).

To be sure of what was truly revealed in their scriptures (5:44, 5:47) which is what they are actually to be judged against, such that he would be judging between them justly (bil qisthwi) -5:42, the Prophet (s.a.w) is to check whatever is prescribed for them in the scripture they possess (e.g 3:93, 'say bring the Taurat...') against that which is approved of them in the Qur'an (16:118, 6:146). Therefore, the Qur'an stands as the ultimate check (muhaymin) against scriptures of the People of the Book as can again be seen in the verse 5:45 against Exodus 21:23-25 (also Leviticus 24:18-21 and Deuteronomy 19:21).

In such a way, the Prophet (s.a.w) would avoid pursuing their desires - 'ahwahum' (2:120) in the form of 'laws' (hukm) possibly some from their times of ignorance (5:50, hukma al-jahiliyyati) brought forth (yaktubuna al-kitaba bi aydihim) in the name of religion (2:79) or rather doctoring the scriptures (5:15, tukhfuna) through for instance, attempted obfuscation (5:41, yuharrafuna al-kalima min ba'di mawadhwi'ihi). If after checking their scriptures against the Qur'an the Prophet (s.a.w) encounters a disparity, then surely, that particular judgment/ rule is not part of their commandments/ judgments but from their own whims (ahwahum).

"And if so would you say that it is expected that Jews and Christians would also need to judge by what they were given by using the Quran as a criterion regarding their books and would judge in their countries who ever abides therein including Muslims?"

In my humble opinion, on the other hand, yes, I do resonate the sentiment that the same is to be reciprocated to believers of the Qur'an in a government (Jewish/ Christian) whose primary scripture of authority is that of the People of the Book; i.e, one that guides/ rules by the 'Taurat'/ 'Injeel'/ 'al-Kitab' in truth - the Qur'an being the final check (muhaymin) and criterion (furqan) sifting through in this case the main authoritative scripture ('al-Kitab'). However, collectively, together with those subjects that are exclusive followers of the Qur'an, such a Jewish/ Christian community is descriptively Muslim.

In summary therefore, the Prophet (s.a.w) and believers of the Qur'an were to use the Qur'an to discern that which 'has been revealed' by God (ma an-zalallahu) in the former scriptures when judging them lest they follow their desires hence their doctored creed (mil-lat). See the following quotation:
   
"And the Jews (al-yahuda) will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians (an-Naswara), till thou follow their creed (mil-latahum). Say: Lo! the guidance (huda) of Allah (Himself) is the Guidance (al-huda). And if thou shouldst follow their desires (ahwa-ahum) after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting guardian nor helper." [Qur'an, Al-Baqarah 2:120]

However, bearing in mind that each of nations (ummat) was sent a prophet with a given set code of rules (hukm) and devotional acts (mansakan), each is supposed to race in good works within their law (shir'atan) and avoid unnecessary disputes across such codes of conduct (minhajan).

Believers of the Qur'an should not falter in their 'creed,' 'law' nor 'way' for they are upon an 'upright guidance' (hudan mustaqim). Given the context, this was clearly an admonition for the Prophet (s.a.w). See the verse below:

"For every Ummah We have appointed acts of devotion (mansakan), which they observe. So do not let them dispute with you in this matter. And invite to your Lord; you are upon a upright guidance (hudan mustaqim)." [Qur'an, Al-Hajj 22:67]

Hopefully that clarifies my position. Thanks for giving me the chance to elucidate further.

Regards,
Athman.

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2019, 10:45:29 AM »
THOSE WHO DO NOT FOLLOW THE MESSENGER ARE NOT GUIDED BY GOD

e.g. Those who do not follow the qibla of the prophet (2:143), they follow their desires (2:145)

2:143
...And We did not make the qibla that you were on it except that We may know who is following the messenger from those who will turn on their two heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided...

God's message of truth has always been the same -2:136,140, 2:38,39 5:68, 3:19, 48:28 etc.

salaam
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2019, 02:29:49 PM »
Asalamu 3alykum

Brother Athman, thank you for the detailed response. Insha'Allah I will reply back in due time as I have a couple inquiries to your response.


Brother Mohammed

Verse 2:143 is elucidating why God has allowed the former direction of prayer to be permitted, is because God was testing those who were already following him to see if they were going follow him the prophet(pbuh) even as the qibla changed to another direction? or where they going to turn back on his heels?

The prophet's first recipients where the gentiles. The Quiraysh who never were warned before

28:46-47 "And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner came before you, that they may be mindful. And were it not that there should befall them a disaster for what their hands have sent before, then they should say: Our Lord! why did you not send to us a messenger so that we should have followed Thy communications and been of the believers!"

36.2-6 "I swear by the Quran full of wisdom, Most surely you are one of the messengers, On a right way. A revelation of the Mighty, the Merciful. That you may warn a people whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless"


62.2 "It is He Who has sent among the 'ummiyina'(*gentiles/people who were not given Scripture before) a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His verses, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, although before they had been in manifest error"
* brackets my own interpolation

Also it is important to note in verse 2:145 that God has stipulated that its in the behaviour of mankind those who been given the messages will not follow each others direction of prayer(qibla).

The desires in verse 2:145 would not be their qibla as they each had a direction which they turn to verse 2:248. This would allude to them trying to turn you away from your qibla or follow their invented desires.

Please examine these articles and let me know if the People of the Book's qibla has ever been Masjid Al-Haram?

Also I'm sure you will realize that it was not, so were they the people of the book supposed to sever/cut the ties/covenants they had with God and follow another direction and another law/method/rituals?

Salam

THE QIBLA CHANGE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/qibla%20FM3.htm

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Marriage with the People of the Book
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2019, 11:47:51 PM »
peace Hamzeh,

It doesn't matter what was the qibla before or what is now. It's clear from the verse that those who do not follow the prophet's qibla are not guided by God.

Quote
The desires in verse 2:145 would not be their qibla...
Not acceptable. The verse is clear.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]