about sura74

[chadiga]

salamu aleikum all! crossroad i see an article from monotheist group about the mention from computer in sura 74. an interested approach.here a part from the article:(for the complete article seehttp://hanif.de/?p=2513

The day as an era
The Quran tells us of various eras which are defined as "days". We are also told that a day with God is 1000 years of our time reckoning.
Sura 74 refers to the beginning of such a new era that will occur in the future and in which the people are reminded once again (... This is a reminder for the people [74:31]) . Our ancestors could not imagine what will happen in our time. They understood that the time mentioned in verses 74:8-9 is the "Day of Resurrection" and therefore they associated this verse with other verses which describe "blowing the horn" (see verses) and claimed that the situation in 74:8-9 is the same, though verse 74:8 contains completely different terms. Let us make a comparison with 50:20 concerning the terms, the shape, the pronunciation and the meaning:
ونفخ فى الصور
Wa-NoFeKha FY AL-SOUR
And blown (is) in the Horn
And here are the terms which we find in verse 74:8, so everyone sees that they have nothing to do with the previous ones:
فإذا نقر فى الناقور
Fa-IZA NoQeRa FY AL NAQOuR
Then, when (it is) clicked in the clicking device
 
"Click" and "clicking device"
The root نقر [NaQaRa] in verse 74:8 has the following meanings: to tap slightly, to pick, to click, to chop, to hack, to chisel (a stone). According to the dictionary of E.W. Lane the term is also used to describe the sound that occurs when snapping with the fingers. The Arabs mainly used the verb to define the light tapping with the finger on a surface or to describe the sound a bird produces with its beak. Therefore the beak of a bird is called منقار [MeNQAR], which derives from the same root. نقار الخشب [NaQAR AL-Khashab] denotes a woodpecker, تناقر [TaNAQaRa] to pick at each other. At the present time the verb is used on most Arabic websites as "to click" like in the following examples:
أنقر هنا [ONQoR hona] Click here
نقر الكلمة [NaQaRa AL KaLeMaH] He clicked on the word.
نقر أزرار اللوحة [NaQaRa AZRAR ALLaWHaH] He clicked the buttons of the keyboard
The second word ناقور [NAQOuR] has the same root like the verb that we previously mentioned. Based on an Arabic grammar rule any verb can be changed from its root form in order to describe a machine / tool / system by using an alif أ (A) after the first letter of the root and a  و waw (Ou) after the second letter:
فعل [FaÁaLa] to make فاعول [FAÓOuL] maker
حسب [HaSaBa] to compute, حاسوب [HASOuB] computer
فرق [faraqa] to divide, فاروق [Farouq] divider (among other things the sword is denoted by this word )
قنن [QaNaNa] to collect قانون [Qanoun] compilation, legislation
معن [MaÁaNa] to help, to aid ماعون [MAÓOuN] help system, aid agency
 
Exactly the same rule is applied for the second word in verse 74:8 that describes a device or system in or on which users can click certain things.

In fact I have never noticed that we mostly make clicks on the computer in order to gather information or process it. We click the keys, click the links that lead us to other pages or click buttons that perform specific functions. For most people the computer is nothing more than a clicking device, the clicks of which open or close worlds for us.

For these reasons we have translated verse (74: in this form:
74:8 Then, when it is clicked in the clicking device
 
A difficult time for the disbelievers
The proximate verses (74:9-10) declare that this time (computer or information age) is a difficult time for those who deny the Quran. The disbelievers will be confronted with their lies. They will not have an easy time (74:10), nor will they be able to convince anyone concerning their claims because they lack evidence. People from all over the world will unite under the slogan of truth and lead a campaign against them, so that they behave like frightened donkeys (74:50) which are upset (74:51)"

This translation is interesting. however, I have a question to the point: it is also said that the word Saqar means not hellfire but rather the mental state of punishment for those who deny the 19 miracle. However, if this is so, so we'll see at the end of Sura, that those coming into the Saqar:
not pray, do not feed the needy, to commit sins, deny the Day of Judgment. (74.42-47)
here nothing about 19 or numbers or "addad"

Another question:

74.32 What the moon has to do with the wonders of nineteen? The moon seems to me like the other signs of Allah to be here to reflect on the creation of the earth and the sky and is therefore good for swearing. Does this not tend to a universal condition here: the belief in Allah and His Book, etc. and not the miracle 19.

I am very divided because of the 19. One hand, I think that the book of God has a code, but rather take it easy for knowledge and be amazed if anyone finds out again more results. A  miracle more to see how great is Allah. But to justify the change  of the book by removing two verses ,this seems to me to abuse the wonder and to become a  Fitna ...
im confused...
thank you for share your thoughts!

[Joseph Islam]

I am very divided because of the 19. One hand, I think that the book of God has a code, but rather take it easy for knowledge and be amazed if anyone finds out again more results. A  miracle more to see how great is Allah. But to justify the change  of the book by removing two verses ,this seems to me to abuse the wonder and to become a  Fitna ...
im confused...
thank you for share your thoughts!

My humble perspective:

CODE 19 AND THE REMOVAL OF TWO VERSES FROM THE QURAN - A PROBLEMATIC THEORY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/19%20FM3.htm

Peace,
Joseph.

[Sardar Miyan]

Use of figure 19 in Quran is for different reasons. 19 on human tablet & 19 Angels of Fire. How does this become a code? Secondly the  numericals & power of Alphabets is given by the humans therefore humans can not judge the Word of Allah by their man made numericals.Rsahad Khalfa was an Eygptian moderately qualfied & took up computer  work after entering USA. No human being is authorised ,empowered to delete or add in the Book of Allah.Some Shias say there is Mushafe Fatima ie,more ayat of Quran hidden.How does RK reconcile? As this is wrong same is RKS belief.And lastly " If he thought to be a messenger then we will say messenger comes to give messege not to DELETE already revealed Message.

[chadiga]

salam to all
Thank you for your answers
I do not think that RK was a messenger, a messenger for me may possible commit human errors, but not when it comes to God's message. RKt made ​​too many mistakes to remain believable. I also see that can be manipulated very much, especially when it comes to numbers and mathematics. A brother wrote a very good criticism about the number and the chance to play with her, while he- with this number-was 'proof' , that he and his wife are the new messengers of Allah (!!! ), I realized that many people can be led astray easy.
However, there is no doubt a lot of coincidences, but this,  as I said, just increase  my faith in Allah. (For this, i'm agree with the interpretation of Sura 74, that is mentioned 19 in order to strengthen the faith, however, a fitnah for those who have the disease in the heart = Those who believe that the Word of God is not complete or want anything to add or take away ... Also maybe must Fitna by the intense time - the lost time - to discover new 'miracles' = Fitna as  the money or the children and womens: Who is too busy with this Fitnas can forget  Allah.)

then you think, this translation is false?

74:8 Then, when it is clicked in the clicking device
 
A difficult time for the disbelievers
The proximate verses (74:9-10) declare that this time (computer or information age) is a difficult time for those who deny the Quran.

[Joseph Islam]

Salamun Alaikum.

Verse 74:8 is clearly signalling one event which will bring about the Day of Judgement. The purpose of the 'naqar' is clearly given by the context to bring about this day  (74:9). This is clearly not referring to clicks and taps of the keyboard of computers. How have millions of such taps brought about a Day of Judgement? People have been tapping on keyboards for decades.

A 'one time event' will trigger the Day of Judgement and I don't necessarily feel these are 'physical' trumpets or 'horns' either. This event will govern the whole Universe and an earthly 'trumpet' is quite a restricted interpretation. Also, there is no mention in the Quran that Angel Israfil will signal the event. These are beliefs based on traditions.

The Quran is describing in the language of the Arabs 'a point' at which the Day of Judgment will be triggered. There are two incidents mentioned in the Quran. The first one will cause everything to die. The second will raise them. Please see 39:68 and a possible allusion to it in 79:6-7. Obviously, those that die before the first call (all that have gone before us) will only hear the second call.

039:068
"And the 'suri' will be blown and then will fall dead / swoon / become unconscious / faint (Arabic: fasa'iqa) whosoever is in the heavens and whosoever is on the earth except whom God wills. Then it will be blown a second time, and behold! They will be standing waiting"

With regards the verb 'naqara', in the language of the Arabs it is usually understood as 'to sound' which in this context simply means the signalling of a particular event.

Different terms have been used to describe the calling. If 79:6-7 is seen in light of 39:68, then the term 'rajafa' has been used to signal the event.
 
For an alternative rendering of 'sur' which is usually rendered as a physical 'trumpet', please see the following article:

THE TRUMPET IS BLOWN OR IS IT?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20trumpet%20is%20blown%20or%20is%20it%20FM3.htm

I hope that helps, God willing.

Regards,
Joseph.

[chadiga]

salamu aleikum
I've been thinking again about the topic, and yet want to go back over several points.

Verse 74:8 is clearly signalling one event which will bring about the Day of Judgement. The purpose of the 'naqar' is clearly given by the context to bring about this day  (74:9). This is clearly not referring to clicks and taps of the keyboard of computers. How have millions of such taps brought about a Day of Judgement? People have been tapping on keyboards for decades

The whole interpretation depends on whether you "Jaum" for the day, specifically as a day of judgment, or look like it has the author tries to explain, as a 'period', or age. We know that Allah is the word very much in understanding as a 'period' needed if we are only a classic example of the creation of the universe in 6 days.
So, if this does not refer to naqur now the day of judgment, is the translation, it seems to me justified for two reasons:
First naqur not have the push into the Sur Sur and on the day of judgment have to do. God used several times Sur, but here nagur why?
Second the yaum is a period, an era so far it seems to me not to link this with the computer age
Third the whole Sura is about the 19th The phenomenon of the 19 can be examined only with the computer, we have enough examples of Handzaehlungen that were wrong. Only the computer can be counted, the terms in the Qur'an correctly.

A 'one time event' will trigger the Day of Judgement and I don't necessarily feel these are 'physical' trumpets or 'horns' either. This event will govern the whole Universe and an earthly 'trumpet' is quite a restricted interpretation. Also, there is no mention in the Quran that Angel Israfil will signal the event. These are beliefs based on traditions.

your answer has nothing to do with the question. It is precisely the statement of the interpretation that the term .... nothing to do with Sur or the day of judgment has.

With regards the verb 'naqara', in the language of the Arabs it is usually understood as 'to sound' which in this context simply means the signalling of a particular event.

The other meaning is taken up from the lexicon, it can prevail over the correct meaning disagreement

Different terms have been used to describe the calling. If 79:6-7 is seen in light of 39:68, then the term 'rajafa' has been used to signal the event.

yes that's right, but nowhere is said that the verse .... also refers to this event.
 

iI've looked at the whole Sura again. I have said above that I think the 19 can be fitnah. But now I look at the verse carefully, then Allah clearly says,
"It is a fitnah for the infidels"
Impression that we addressed, then it would have to hot, a fitnah for the believers.
Edip Yuksel has seen such perfect coming right in the Sura as a strong indication of the 19 looks, not the hell. see http://www.yuksel.org/e/religion/saqar.htm

My problem with Saqar and the connection with the 19 is then also clear: if a mental Saqar punishment condition, called, in which there are those who are opposed to 19, living in this and the other, then the following passage 74.43- ff becomes clear:
74.43 they said, we were not of those who hold the prayer
-Saqar as punishment for those who do not pray. We see that the Qur'an alone is a tendency to deny the prayer altogether. The 19 has shown, however, that prayer is protected by Allah. (I have re-examined with the old compi, with the new I can not download the required program)
74.44 we did not feed the poor
-even here, the zakat is a compulsory charge denied by 'modern \ muslims.
74,45 we used to participate with those who spoke falsehood.
-speak against the miracle
74.46 we used to deny the day of judgement.
74.48 until the certainty dame to us.
this passage still not clear with this definition, the last sentence may be related to the fact that they believe not to be judged on Judgment Day, because they believe they are right guided .


74.35
Allah refers to 'as one of the biggest'.
because hell can't be a great sign and a reminder (zikr). hell is a punisment and not a reminder, a reminder is anything positive but the hell isn't.  i think this passage means really the 19. One may include:   good, the earth and the universe bigger miracle. However,if we found out that there are apparently many coincidences with the 19 in nature (cf. sura al hadid and the bees)?If it turns out according to the latest findings that the universe is really related to the 'coding' 19, then it would be really one of the biggest signs .

[chadiga]

salamu aleikum
sorry at all. i'm posting the whole again. i press the 'post' button without to cancel many errors in the translation. now i hope it is a little bit better 

Verse 74:8 is clearly signalling one event which will bring about the Day of Judgement. The purpose of the 'naqar' is clearly given by the context to bring about this day  (74:9). This is clearly not referring to clicks and taps of the keyboard of computers. How have millions of such taps brought about a Day of Judgement? People have been tapping on keyboards for decades

The whole interpretation depends on whether you look at  "Jaum" for a 'day', specifically as the day of judgment, or look like  as the author tries to explain, as a 'period', or age. We know that Allah used the word oftenly  in understanding as a 'period'. ( only a classic example of the creation of the universe in 6 days.)
So, if this 74:8 not point of the day of judgment ,like in this translation, it seems to me justified for two reasons:
First 'naqur' not must  haveanything to do with ' the blown into the Sur'. God used several times 'Sur', but here 'naqur' , why?
Second, if the yaum means a period, an era , it seems to me not so far  to link this with the computer age
Third, the whole Sura is about the 19th. The phenomenon of the 19 can be examined only with the computer, we have enough examples of countings on hand,  who were wrong. Only the computer can  count  the terms in the Qur'an correctly.

A 'one time event' will trigger the Day of Judgement and I don't necessarily feel these are 'physical' trumpets or 'horns' either. This event will govern the whole Universe and an earthly 'trumpet' is quite a restricted interpretation. Also, there is no mention in the Quran that Angel Israfil will signal the event. These are beliefs based on traditions.

your answer has nothing to do with the question. It is precisely the statement of the interpretation that the term has nothing to do with Sur or the day of judgment has.

With regards the verb 'naqara', in the language of the Arabs it is usually understood as 'to sound' which in this context simply means the signalling of a particular event.

The other meaning is taken up from the lexicon, it can prevail  disagreement over the correct meaning

Different terms have been used to describe the calling. If 79:6-7 is seen in light of 39:68, then the term 'rajafa' has been used to signal the event.

yes that's right, but nowhere is said that the verse 74.6 also refers to this event.
 
iI've looked at the whole Sura again. I have said above that I think the 19 can be fitnah. But now I look at the verse carefully, then Allah clearly says,
"It is a fitnah for the infidels"
Impression that we addressed, then it would have to hot, a fitnah for the believers.
Edip Yuksel has seen the Sura right  as a strong indication of the 19, not the hell. http://www.yuksel.org/e/religion/saqar.htm

My problem with Saqar and the connection with the 19 is then also clear: if Saqar is a mental punishment condition,, in which there are those who are opposed to 19, living in this life and the other, then the following passage 74.43- ff becomes clear:
74.43 they said, we were not of those who hold the prayer
-Saqar as punishment for those who do not pray. We see that in the 'Qur'an alone' is a tendency to deny the prayer altogether. The 19 has shown, however, that prayer is protected by Allah. (I have re-examined with the old compi, with the new I can not download the required program)

74.44 we did not feed the poor
-even here, the zakat is a compulsory charge denied by 'modern  muslims.

74,45 we used to participate with those who spoke falsehood.
-speak against the miracle

74.46 we used to deny the day of judgement.
74.48 until the certainty dame to us.
this passage still not clear with this definition, the last sentence may be related to the fact that they believe not to be judged on Judgment Day, because they believe they are right guided .

74.35
Allah refers to 'as one of the biggest'.
because hell can't be a great sign and a reminder (zikr). hell is a punisment and not a reminder, a reminder is anything positive but the hell isn't.  i think this passage means really the 19. One may include:   good, the earth and the universe are bigger miracles. However,if we found out that there are apparently many coincidences with the 19 in nature (cf. sura al hadid and the bees)?If it turns out according to the latest findings that the universe is really related to the 'coding' 19, then it would be really one of the biggest signs .

salamu aleikum

[Joseph Islam]

Dear sister Chadiga,

Salamun Alaikum

With respect, you asked a simple question about a particular translation and I gave you my humble perspective. That is the best I can do.

You obviously incline to the 19 interpretation which now I understand is the the main crux of this whole thread and the thrust behind your 'particular' interpretation. You are of course free to believe what you feel is correct.

I have given you clear reasons why I support the interpretations that I do and have clearly cited the concerns I have with the 19 theory and its results which have led some to remove two verses of the Quran.

If you can help me satisfy the following contentions, then we can respectfully continue the discussions. If you cannot, then please accept this post as my humble last on this matter.

(1) To provide clear proof from the Quran alone that believers are required to explain the number 19.

(2) To provide clear tangible proof, other than any related data utilised to support the 19 code theory (*), that there was ever an omission of verses 9:128-129 from any manuscript of the Quran that has ever existed to our collective knowledge.
 
(3) To provide clear proof, other than any related data utilised to support the 19 code theory (*), that there is, or was ever, an omission of verses 9:128-129 from any authoritative recitation known throughout Islamic history till the present.

(*) The 19 code theory itself or its data cannot be admissible as proof as this would be tantamount to a circular argument. (e.g. 'The Bible is true because the Bible says so')

Also do you really think that the effort required for each believer to confirm the full scope of the 19 code with all its relevant counts and calculations, with or without a computer, is in keeping with the teachings of the Quran that asks believers to rely on clear matters which form the substance of the Book (3:7, 18:22)?

017.036
"And do not follow that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed! the hearing and the sight and the heart - of each of these you will be questioned"

If you do think that, then I have to confess that you and I do not understand the Quran's basic directive to rely on clear proof, sticking to the Quran's fundamentals in the same way.
 
Finally, with regards your comment:

A 'one time event' will trigger the Day of Judgement and I don't necessarily feel these are 'physical' trumpets or 'horns' either. This event will govern the whole Universe and an earthly 'trumpet' is quite a restricted interpretation. Also, there is no mention in the Quran that Angel Israfil will signal the event. These are beliefs based on traditions.

your answer has nothing to do with the question. It is precisely the statement of the interpretation that the term has nothing to do with Sur or the day of judgment has.

Sometimes I include related but wider information which I feel may be of benefit to other readers as well to those who may hold certain beliefs which may not be supported by the Quran. That is the only reason I imparted what I did. In future and with the greatest respect, can I humbly ask that you please take what you feel is useful and pass on from what you think is not relevant.

Regards,
Joseph.

[Doc]

I think this 19 stuff causes nothing but problems between Quran people!!!! And taking two verses out the Quran - that is just plain ridiculous. 

[Saba]

Aslamaolaikum all.

The 19 debate is an old one and I agree with Doc. It is nothing but trouble and occupies the time and minds of believers unnecessarily.  It was even recently carried out on the ourbeacon forum. Quite simply, Edip didn't have much answers and looked very weak in his responses.

http://ourbeaconforum.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/page/1/md/read/id/314123119173125
[EDIP ON THE RUN! - Challenge]

http://ourbeaconforum.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/page/1/md/read/id/314123119173107
[Challenge fo the deniers of the math'cal miracle]

@Sr. Chadiga, sorry - but I found your post very problematic in your understanding - So sorry - Saba

[Truth Seeker]

Dear Chadiga,

I have read about the 19 theory and I find it ridiculous to be frank. It took R.K all his lifetime, consumed with numbers and formulae and in the end he concluded that 2 verses were to be omitted for his 'theory' to be correct. That, in my view is unacceptable and should highlight further that his hypothesis is flawed.

The excerpt you provided about 'clicking' etc is a far fetched attempt of someone trying to 'fit' a theory into the Quranic text by using obscure meanings for well known words.

With the 19, it clearly is the number of angels guarding the fire. By God mentioning this number, some people will want to know why this is and will start to delve into matters that they have no knowledge of and the result is Rashad Khalifa.

I don't know what one can gain with having the Quran in a 19 code . It does not reveal any new directive or give us any new information and I am sure that Muslims were practising their faith in full and they managed to believe in the Quran without the the so called number 19 'miracle'.

The Quran is a straight forward book full of wisdom and we will surely miss out on all of it's beauty and magnificence if we just see it in numerical code.

[Sardar Miyan]

Do the 19 followers think that Allah has not been Guarding the Quran from the last 1400 years ? How does a man going through the Computer , making some calculations declare the Word of Allah as not right.No body is capable of judging Allah's Words.

[Doc]

Bro Sardar. You are so so right. A lot of Quran only people talk about other hadithis that rely on hadith and criticize them. Yet, they can't even agree on how many prayers in a day, question clear words of Arabic without knowledge of the language but relying only dictionaries. How can you learn a language from a dictionary? A dictionary is only useful if you understand the language first. If there is no agreement with Quran only people, how can you expect hadithis to come to your way of thinking? They will run a million miles away. It is hypocrtical in some ways to expect others to make a change, when sometimes you cannot even agree on basics. Doc.
 

[chadiga]

salamu aleikum to all

I'm sorry if I have heated your minds with my post . Actually I see it just like you! I'm just  stumbled  over this thing and I thought the forum is the place to share my thoughts. Apparently this is not the case.
You may have a different idea of ​​what has to be a forum. Like I  understand, i am here to learn, even if  something seems sunclear for one , it must be not so for others. This does not mean, that I agree to remove two verses from the Koran, or that we should be all mathematicians to read the Koran. I see very well the danger of this theory. That did not prevent me from communicating my thoughts. If this is not welcome here, then I'm sorry. Salam

[Saba]

Salam Sr. Chadiga. If I understand this correctly, in the submitter or Edip's world, if someone does not believe in the theory, then they are blinded according to this theory. So all those Quran orientated Muslims that do not believe in this theory are doomed according to them. That is the interpretation as I understand. This is a very serious matter. When they claim to take two verses out of the Quran - something which is a very very very serious claim to a Quran believing Muslim, and they predict the Day of Judgment (like RK did), they are attacking the central part of their belief. Then they are going to get heated responses. This is no small matter like I said.

It is fine to question, but there has to be limits based on proof. It is no use pushing a theory which has problems in it and causes fitna between Quran Muslims. At a time when we should be bringing Muslims together - this issue is dividing even Quran people - This 19 stuff is nothing but fitna. You are most welcome on this forum and I for one, really enjoy you here. But yes, the 19 theory is a problem for many believers who BELIEVE IN THE QURAN ALREADY AS THE WORD OF GOD. Now we have to force them to believe that the Quran they believe in has 2 faulty verses that were never revealed? So the 19 theory may not be so welcome as this matter has been discussed over and over again on many forums. You can see for yourself on free-minds.org and ourbeacon etc. In the end, this only divides Quran people while other traditionalists laugh at us. There are more important things to resolve in the MUslim Ummah than isolated theories that cause further divisions and fitna. Saba.