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Offline Lobotomize94

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Quran 3:7 says that some 'verses' ('Ayats') are ambiguous. But we have verses that have both ambiguous and unambiguous elements, for example:

[Quran 56:75] I swear by the setting of the stars

The "I swear" is clear, decisive and unambiguous. But "setting of the stars" is ambiguous, and we are not sure what exactly it is referring to. So this verse has both ambiguous and unambiguous elements, and the full message of the verse is saying that Allah is swearing by something very significant.

But, since this verse has both ambiguous and unambiguous elements (and this is only one example, many verses have the same thing going on), then why does Quran 3:7 says only 'Ayats' can be ambiguous and not parts of 'Ayats'?

Maybe Ayats doesn't mean "verses", maybe it means "signs" or something. And even a part of an Ayat is a sign. Any part of the Quran is an Ayat. The Quran is a miracle/sign for 7th century Arabs and the Quran even challenges them to try to write any part of the Quran--so maybe any part of the Quran (even part of a verse) is an "ayat" or a sign?

Are we sure an "ayat' must be the whole verse and not just a part of a verse? Why must it mean the whole verse, why can't it be a part of it? If it was just a part of a verse, then 3:7 would make sense.

Offline Wakas

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Re: Does "Ayat" really mean "verse"? Arabic speakers, please help.
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2020, 06:24:22 PM »
You may find this resources helpful:
http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

Alif-Ya-Waw = sign, apparent sign, mark, indication, message, evidence, proof, miracle, communication, verse of The Quran. It properly signifies any apparent thing inseparable from a thing not equally apparent so that when one perceives the former, he perceives the other which he cannot perceive by itself.

ayah n.f. (pl. ayat) 2:39, 2:41, 2:61, 2:73, 2:99, 2:106, 2:118, 2:118, 2:129, 2:145, 2:151, 2:164, 2:187, 2:211, 2:219, 2:221, 2:231, 2:242, 2:248, 2:248, 2:252, 2:259, 2:266, 3:4, 3:7, 3:11, 3:13, 3:19, 3:21, 3:41, 3:41, 3:49, 3:49, 3:50, 3:58, 3:70, 3:97, 3:98, 3:101, 3:103, 3:108, 3:112, 3:113, 3:118, 3:164, 3:190, 3:199, 4:56, 4:140, 4:155, 5:10, 5:44, 5:75, 5:86, 5:89, 5:114, 6:4, 6:4, 6:21, 6:25, 6:27, 6:33, 6:35, 6:37, 6:39, 6:46, 6:49, 6:54, 6:55, 6:65, 6:68, 6:93, 6:97, 6:98, 6:99, 6:105, 6:109, 6:109, 6:118, 6:124, 6:126, 6:130, 6:150, 6:157, 6:157, 6:158, 6:158, 7:9, 7:26, 7:32, 7:35, 7:36, 7:37, 7:40, 7:51, 7:58, 7;64, 7:72, 7:73, 7:103, 7:106, 7:126, 7:132, 7:133, 7:136, 7:146, 7:146, 7:146, 7:147, 7:156, 7:174, 7:175, 7:176, 7:177, 7:182, 7:203, 8:2, 8:31, 8:52, 8:54, 9:9, 9:11, 9:65, 10:1, 10:5, 10:6, 10:7, 10:15, 10:17, 10:20, 10:21, 10:24, 10:67, 10:71, 10:73, 10:75, 10:92, 10:92, 10:95, 10:97, 10:101, 11:1, 11:59, 11:64, 11:96, 11:103, 12:1, 12:7, 12:35, 12:105, 13:1, 13:2, 13:3, 13:4, 13:7, 13:27, 13:38, 14:5, 14:5, 15:1, 15:75, 15:77, 15:81, 16:11, 16:12, 16:13, 16:65, 16:67, 16:69, 16:79, 16:101, 16:101, 16:104, 16:105, 17:1, 17:12, 17:12, 17:12, 17:59, 17:59, 17:98, 17:101, 18:9, 18:17, 18:56, 18:57, 18:105, 18:106, 19:10, 19:10, 19:21, 19:58, 19:73, 19:77, 20:22, 20:23, 20:42, 20:47, 20:54, 20:56, 20:126, 20:127, 20:128, 20:133, 20:134, 21:5, 21:32, 21:37, 21:77, 21:91, 22:16, 22:51, 22:52, 22:57, 22:72, 22:72, 23:30, 23:45, 23:50, 23:58, 23:66, 23:105, 24:1, 24:18, 24:34, 24:46, 24:58, 24:59, 24:61, 25:36, 25:37, 25:73, 26:2, 26:4, 26:8, 26:15, 26:67, 26:103, 26:121, 26:128, 26:139, 26:154, 26:158, 26:174, 26:190, 26:197, 27:1, 27;12, 27:13, 27:52, 27:81, 27:82, 27:83, 27:84, 27:86, 27:93, 28:2, 28:35, 28:36, 28:45, 28:47, 28:59, 28:87, 29:15, 29:23, 29:24, 29:35, 29:44, 29:47, 29:49, 29:49, 29:50, 29:50, 30:10, 30:16, 30:20, 30:21, 30:21, 30:22, 30:22, 30:23, 30:23, 30:24, 30:24, 30:25, 30:28, 30:37, 30:46, 30:53, 30:58, 31:2, 31:7, 31:31, 31:31, 31:32, 32:15, 32:22, 32:24, 32:26, 33:34, 34:5, 34:9, 34:15, 34:19, 34:38, 34:43, 36:33, 36:37, 36:41, 36:46, 36:46, 37:14, 38:29, 39:42, 39:52, 39:59, 39:63, 39:71, 40:4, 40:13, 40:23, 40:35, 40:56, 40:63, 40:69, 40:78, 40:81, 40:81, 41:3, 41:15, 41:28, 41:37, 41:39, 41:40, 41:44, 41:53, 42:29, 42:32, 42:33, 42:35, 43:46, 43:47, 43:48, 43:69, 44:33, 45:3, 45:4, 45:5, 45:6, 45:6, 45:8, 45:9, 45:11, 45:13, 45:25, 45:31, 45:35, 46:7, 46:26, 46:27, 48:20, 51:20, 51:37, 53:18, 54:2, 54:15, 54:42, 57:9, 57:17, 57:19, 58:5, 62:2, 62:5, 64:10, 65:11, 68:15, 74:16, 78:28, 79:20, 83:13, 90:19

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 1, pages: 168, 169, 170, 171, 172  ##  http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=ayw

Offline Lobotomize94

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Re: Does "Ayat" really mean "verse"? Arabic speakers, please help.
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2020, 05:24:26 AM »
Thank you very much, that is a very useful resource! I am massively grateful you have linked it for me.

It looks like Ayat can refer to a message or communication in the Quran. So it is not restricted only to a verse or proof!

Do you know why Quran corpus says the root word is "hamza, ya, ya"?

Offline Lobotomize94

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Re: Does "Ayat" really mean "verse"? Arabic speakers, please help.
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2020, 08:10:17 AM »
I asked this question off a false premise. I realized I was making an erroneous assumption about the verse 3:7.

Quran 3:7 may be referring exclusively to miracles/signs or it may be referring to verses and parts of verses (communications/messages in the Quran). Or it could have just been only talking about whole verses which are unambiguous and ambiguous, but doesn't mention verses which have both ambiguous or unambiguous elements and thus does not exclude their existence nor does it exclude the fact those verses can also be used to test us and guide/misguide us--and we can reason this and we can use our intellect to arrive at this understanding. If I say "there are medical conditions which present with mild pain and others with severe pain", I am not excluding the fact there are medical conditions with moderate pain nor am I excluding medical conditions with alternating bouts of mild and severe pain. Such an exclusion is not stated in that statement--its only the presumption of the reader that leads them to that conclusion. Likewise, if I tell you there are sentences in this article with big words and others with small words--that doesn't exclude sentences with both big words and small words. Likewise, if a professor tells you that in your essay there are sentences that are well written and others, poorly written--it doesn't mean there aren't sentences with both well written and poorly written components. Again, such an exclusion is only perceived through the assumption of the reader. So again, this verse (3:7) does not exclude the existence of verses which have both ambiguous and unambiguous elements within it, and we observe verses which have both elements in it, therefore the Quran has verses with both ambiguous and unambiguous elements in it. Either way, we know the Quran has ambiguous and unambiguous descriptions within it.