four birds or four parts of the bird

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam all ,

With regard to Mubashir's comments, it is disconcerting especially for those who do not know Arabic when you have translations that are completely different from the mainstream.

The translations by Parvez and Shabbir do not stand up to scrutiny simply because they do not represent the Arabic closely enough.

Joseph has raised the right questions regarding parables, as we have to look at the issue as a whole and taking all the verses into account, it is plain to see that miracles do exist.

Optimist, you make the correct point where you say that we should only look at the Quran for guidance. However I note your comments regarding Mary.

The points you make about her being a nun and breaking temple rules are not from the Quran. The only reason that this is being used, is in order for those who do not believe in Jesus's miraculous birth to be able to explain the verses in a different way.

In my opinion this is utterly underhanded because they are not using the Quran to explain itself which is meant to be the guiding principle according to Parvez and Shabbir.

[optimist]

• Given God's infinite capacity, please provide clear Quranic proof that He cannot temporarily suspend / alter / interfere with the laws He himself has created as and when 'He so wills' to manifest a particular truth

Wa'alaikum'ussalam,

I note all of your comments/ points with respect.  I would like to point out a different arguement here for verses like "He so wills" .  My intention is only to hightlight another point of view.  Parwez clarifys through many quranic verses and explanations that the Quranic use of “شاء - يشاء etc.” should be translated as: ‘whatever is His law or Will’ (مشيئة) and not as : ‘whatever He wants’. It should be: ‘Whatever He has already wanted’

http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/kt/kt_10.htm
I -  لو شاء الله   - If Allah Willed
II -  ما شاء الله - What Allah Wills
III -  إن شاء الله -  If Allah Wills
IV -  من يشـاء -  (Whoever wishes)
V-  يفعل ما يشاء   (He (Allah) does what He wants
VI-  يحكم ما يريد (He (Allah) ordains what He intends)[/list]

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Optimist,

Salamun Alaikum.

The inference "If He so wills" does not mean that God makes his mind up like human beings as and when situations arise. God is not dependant nor is he part of time and space. Therefore, He does not need to wait for 'situations' to occur. We operate within time and space and are subject to it.  He controls His affairs of the Universe from outside the realm of time and space.  Please let us think about this for a moment.

This also does not mean that we have no 'free will' *, but God knows of our choices before we make them and before the Universe was created.

If a mountain is to crumble, the necessary steps to make this happen were put into place within the earth’s geology long before Prophet Moses would ask the question (7:143). God did not make His mind up on the spot. God just knew Prophet Moses would ask the question out of choice and He had already prepared an answer.

With respect, though I sense a particular theological bias in what you have presented from Parwez, it is not completely incorrect. But the view you have shared does not address my central concerns, as the main assertion you quoted still stands.

What if God had already chosen a portent to occur to manifest a particular truth to a set of people? I humbly assert that this cannot be disproved.

However sadly in my view, despite the strength in the argument above, there are those that will simply not accept this.

Regards,
Joseph.


* Note

I also do not subscribe to absolute free will. There are clear passages where our wills or collective wills have been curtailed by God. Whether this pertains to one community inheriting after God displaces another (26:57-59, 59:3-7) , whether our hands are kept from harming each other or we are prevented to pull down places of worship (22:40) etc, God maintains ultimate control according to His will. It is His responsibility to provide a suitable platform where we can all be tested with what He has given us (75:36, 29:2-3, 3:186).

In our own lives there have undoubtedly been situations which we have pursued with might, yet we have remained unsuccessful. On the other hand, we have often noted things unexpected come to fruition. It is all part of His master-plan.

[optimist]

If a mountain is to crumble, the necessary steps to make this happen were put into place within the earth’s geology long before Prophet Moses would ask the question (7:143). God did not make His mind up on the spot. God just knew Prophet Moses would ask the question out of choice and He had already prepared an answer.

Wa'alaikumussalam,

I believe you are in a way confirms that everything happens in the created universe based on "cause and effect", which applies uniformly to the entire Universe.

What if God had already chosen a portent to occur to manifest a particular truth to a set of people? I humbly assert that this cannot be disproved.

Again the point is whether it is without "cause and effect".   I would like to state in brief some points as explained by partwez in Book of Destiny; http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/kt/kt_02.htm     

1.   Allah’s domain has two relmns, Amr and Khalq.    Khalq is the created universe while Amr is whatever is beyond.   The domain of ‘Amr’ (creating from nothingness) is exclusive to Allah and Allah alone.   This is the initial stage of creation. The chemistry of it all is beyond human comprehension and consequently, unquestionable. Allah used His exclusive power and privileges to create things (from nothingness) giving them their particular characteristics (24/45). He simply exercised His ‘will’.  There are no binding laws.  Amr is based upon ‘Allah’s will’. (22/14, 11/107, 5/1, 22/18, 21/31). 2/117 also 6/14 and 30/11.)

2.   Having created the universe according to His own will, Allah introduced a great change in this cosmic program. Now, He bound His Amr in LAWS.  In the ‘Domain of ‘Khalq’ Allah’s will is bound by laws and thus ‘Allah set a standard to everything’ (65/3)....................Here it is important to know how the term ‘Qadr’ (قدر) is used in Quran.  Quran uses the word Q-D-R with the basic meaning of a measure. ‘Qadrun’ or ‘Taqdeer’ means a measure or a standard; also, of something to be of the right measurements, standard and estimate. ‘Qadr’ (قدر) of the Quran is nothing but the Laws of Nature.   Sura An’aam reports: “Allah made night for rest and the sun and the moon for calculation (of time). This the taqdeer (destiny) of the Powerful and Knowledgeable Allah,” 6/97). In other words, this is Allah’s law. Similarly, Sura Yaseen reports: “And the sun is on course to its station. This the Powerful and Knowledgeable Allah’s taqdeer,” (36/38). Elsewhere, it says: “And We decorated the world’s sky with bright lamps (stars), and provided you protection through them. This the Powerful and Knowledgeable Allah’s taqdeer,” (41/12). Sura Furqaan reports: “He created all things and then determined taqdeer for them,” (25/2). Obviously, taqdeer means Nature’s laws. Again, Sura AdDahr reports: These goblets will be made of (brilliant) silver and made to special taqdeer (measures),” (76/16).

3.      These taqadeer (standards, measures - law of Nature) of Allah’s are pre-determined (it was done in the domain of ‘Amr’) and they are ‘written’ in the ‘book of Nature / Universe’. This is referred to as ‘the clearly set book’. It says in Sura An’aam: “Allah knows what is in the seas and on land. He knows every leaf that falls off a tree. He also knows even a grain in the darkness of the Earth. The truth is that each and every thing (in detail) is there in the clearly-set book.” (6/59) That is to say that standards have been set to all things in the universe and are there. (17/58) ((for anyone to read if they so wish)). This is physics (science). That is why these laws are called (قدر معلوم)in (15/21) and (15/24) i.e., laws which can be discovered. Adam (mankind) is said to have been given ‘the knowledge of names’. This is nothing but the knowledge of the universe. (for more detailed discussion of ‘Qadr’ kindly go through the link I posted above)

4.    In the same way every occurrence in the physical universe is based on pre-determined laws enacted by Allah, in the Man’s social world also everything takes place under pre-determined laws.   In the social world, man is a responsible being who enjoys freedom of choice of right and wrong.  Man can choose an action but has to bear its consequence (pre-ordained by Allah). This is the Law of Results of Action, which is constant and firm.  Man should bear in mind the Law of Returns which oversees all his actions (انه بما تعملون بصير  - 41/40)........... Man is free to choose his action but is not free to change the natural consequences of that action.  This Nature’s ‘Law of Returns’ applies to nations as well as to individuals.................... The words in the Quran ‘whatever Allah has written for us’ do not mean our pre-determined fate but whatever law has already been established. Fore example, see (2/187) where it says: ‘Strive to get whatever Allah has written for you. “obviously, ‘written’ in this verse does not mean pre-determined fate’ because that is inevitable and, as such, does not require any effort to get. Similarly, in (58/21) it says: “Allah has written that He and His prophets will out come out victorious.” The Quran is full of the monumental struggle which prophets had to do to succeed in their missions. Sura ‘Araaf cites Moses’ people requesting Allah to “write for us good things in this life as well as in the hereafter.” Allah’s response was: “These (good things) are WRITTEN for those who (are ‘muttaqeen) follow Allah’s laws.  For more detailed analysis pleas go through http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/kt/kt_06.htm

5.   Allah’s Word (كلمة الله) and Allah’s Way (سنة الله) have been used  to mean Allah’s law.  Kalima’ is the formula (theory) while ‘SunnatAllah’ is the practical form the ‘Kalimatullah’ takes. Both of these are permanent: (6/34, 6/116, 18/27 and also 10/64) for ‘Kalimatullah’ and (33/62, 40/85, 48/23) for ‘SunnatAllah’. Not only are these laws permanent but they don’t even change course (17/77, 35/43)! It has been mentioned above that Allah’s ‘Amr (will) becomes (قدرا مقدورا) ‘set standards & measures’ in the created universe. This is referred to as ‘SunnatAllah’ in (33/38), i.e., it becomes unchangeable law. 

6.   His ‘Amr - absolute power and choice - transformed to building permanent Law of Nature. In other words, Allah bound Himself! Shocking, isn’t it? But, it IS true. We witness it routinely. For example, see (6/12 & 6/54) where He says: ‘He has made Rahma compulsory for Himself. (4) Also, see (10/103): ‘We have the obligation to protect the convinced.  This has also been termed as ‘Allahs Promise’ in (16/38, 31/9, 31/33, 35/5, 40/55 & 40/77). Also to be noted is the declaration that He always does, and will, keep His promise (30/6, 3/193).   This may give rise to the argument that a ‘law abiding Allah’ ceases to be the all-powerful Allah’. But this is misleading. One does not cease to have power if one submits to a law voluntarily. For instance, if you are made to, against your will, have a daily 3- mile early morning walk, you are forced. But if you decide to do it, on your own accord, you are free. One who keeps promises and adopts certain principles in life, is not powerless. On the contrary, such a person is termed a man of honor, upholder of principles and reliable. Therefore, Allah doesn’t lose any power by binding himself in His own Laws. In fact, such a Allah is worthy of being Allah. He is a Allah who can be trusted because His laws are reliable. Despite having the power to do so, He doesn’t break laws.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Optimist,

Salamun Alaikum.

I have to confess that I am deeply saddened by your persistence to copy and paste long paragraphs from Parwez's work which do little to address what I feel are central contentions. I am familiar with this approach by others but I humbly expected your kind self to be different. It is saddening for me given some of your comments where you have clearly stated that it is not your intention to follow anyone as you are answerable to God alone. It is also disconcerting for me as it appears that you clearly have been gifted great intellect and a capacity to reason.

As you will no doubt agree, something is not true simply because Ghulam Parwez says so. I personally often find Ghulam Parwez's statements a matter of conjecture, opinion and interpolations rather than solely backed up with Quranic proof. However, let me not digress. Ghulam Parwez is not the main topic of discussion and I have no intention to discuss his work per se further. I trust that you will respect this.

My academic contentions against those that deny Biblical portents are clearly stated below. Unless there is an honest attempt to address these contentions in the form of an academic rebuttal and clear proof from the Quran, I am disinclined to continue the debate. I feel there is no mileage in an endless discussion for the sake of a discussion.

With respect, please note again my contentions. I await a suitable response.

• Given God's infinite capacity, please provide clear Quranic proof that He cannot temporarily suspend / alter / interfere with the laws He himself has created as and when 'He so wills' to manifest a particular truth
• What did God stop / withhold / arrest / prevent / refrain / suspend (mana) in 17:59 going forward that He had sent to previous communities?
• How could God stop something (17:59) He did before, if He did not alter His ways?
• Why does the Quran 'confirm' (musaddiqan) the traditional understanding of the Jewish and Christian audience at the time of the Prophet's ministry with regards portents and not challenge it?
• Why does the Quran use similar terms in the Arabic language to support the existing understanding of the Jews and Christians regarding portents?
• Why would one not accept the Quran's clear testimony, even though the Quran says it is not a book of riddles and has no crookedness?
  "...qur'anan arabiyyan ghayra dhi iwajin ..." (A Quran in Arabic without any crookedness...)

If these simple contentions have no suitable response, then I assert that the theological charge against the existence of Biblical portents is FALSE and without warrant.

Regards,
Joseph.

 

[optimist]

With respect, please note again my contentions. I await a suitable response.

• Given God's infinite capacity, please provide clear Quranic proof that He cannot temporarily suspend / alter / interfere with the laws He himself has created as and when 'He so wills' to manifest a particular truth

Salamun alaikum,

I think this question is required a slight modification.    The question should not be whether Allah is competent to temporarily suspend the laws, it should be whether Allah will ever suspend /alter /interfere.   Allah is very much competent to suspend/ alter/ interfere, but Allah will not do.  For instance, the taste of salt is salty, Allah could have made it taste differently.   Can Allah change the taste of salt to something else?   Yes of course, Allah can do it, but Allah will not do.   This applies in the social world also.

“This has been Our way with Our Messengers whom We sent before thee; and thou wilt not find any change in Our way” (17:77)

“Such has been the way of God with those who passed away before, and never thou wilt find a change in the way of God.”(33:62)

“(Such has been) Allah's Way of dealing with His Servants (from the most ancient times).” (40:85)

“Such has ever been the law of God; and thou shalt not find any change in the law of God.”(48:23)

“Thus [it is]: no change wilt thou ever find in God's way; yea, no deviation wilt thou ever find in God's way!” (35: 43)
 

• What did God stop / withhold / arrest / prevent / refrain / suspend (mana) in 17:59 going forward that He had sent to previous communities?
• How could God stop something (17:59) He did before, if He did not alter His ways?

The reason why no miracles have been provided to the prophet, as stated in the Quran many times, was because the prophet was only a human being like us and a messenger with responsibility to deliver the message only.   I will say, the explanation of  “Miracles” in the above verse is only an interpretation, it is because we try to interpret the verse based on our pre-conceived notions.   

Please tell me what is the “miracle” in the story of Thamud discussed in the context?  People of Thamud treated Allah’s warnings with contempt and brought about punishment and immediate destruction.   The purpose for sending such a warning was to strike terror into the hearts of evildoers and reclaim them to the right path.  Here fear is used as a motive for reclaiming certain kinds of hard hearts.   Allah could have send the message with such warnings, however, it is Allah's Mercy that he gives the disbelievers grace for a time and prevents the coming of punishments which would overwhelm them if they were put to their trial at once.   

Considering your explanation of "miracles" associated with earlier people, we know that, when people asked Jesus a miracle, what Jesus himself had stated was. according to Quran, "Fear Allah, if ye have faith." (5:12).   

Also, it is to be noted that Allah mentions with contempt the habit of people requesting “miracles”;

“And those who have no knowledge say, 'Why does God not speak to us, or a Sign come to us direct?' Likewise said those before them what was similar to their saying. Their hearts are all alike. We have certainly made the Signs plain for a people who firmly believe.” (2:118)

• Why does the Quran 'confirm' (musaddiqan) the traditional understanding of the Jewish and Christian audience at the time of the Prophet's ministry with regards portents and not challenge it?
• Why does the Quran use similar terms in the Arabic language to support the existing understanding of the Jews and Christians regarding portents?

I  think we need to take into account the following things and take up the issue for further deliberations.

1.   There are christian scholars/ writers who claim that rod of Moses and many biblical stories, even the story of Adam are allegorical.  You can check for book “The Rod of the Almond Tree in God’s Master Plan” by Peter A. Michas , mainly from chapter 6 onwards.  I will say such an analysis is interesting only, especially from a Christian point of view.

2.   Then there is the issue how Quran can explain things which are having a pshychological reality to the people and I am unable to find a reason why a theological stand should have been taken  in explicit terms other than metaphorically explaining the things as it is and at the same time mentioning the reality of the actual situation through many verses.   

3.   Another important thing is to be noted is that no where any “miracles” have been said to have been done in response to a demand for miracles.  When a demand was made, as  stated in the Quran,  the response from Jesus was, “fear your lord”.   So please note, a "miracle" is said to have been performed when there was no request for it from people!   It is strange and there is a lot to ponder over. 

4.   An allegorical narration might be best possible way to explain facts for people who are not familiar and present at the time and period in history.   The fact that Moses requested Allah the help of Aaron for the reason that Aaron was more fluent speech and debate is itself a proof that what happened before Pharoah was more than a magical feast  (it is interesting to note, in the biblical narration it is Aaron who is throwing the stick).   We are actually overlooking  the possiblity of an intellectual debate and consequent victory explained through an allegory of a real snake swallowing false and faked snakes.   Even assuming this an allegory, the words and statements have deep and powerful meanings. 

5.   Quran itself testifies that it contains allegorical verses and and Allah only knows the essence of the realities which these verses represent.  Also, those who make a right approach to knowledge believe in the realities but can also form an idea of what they are and can perceive their significance. (3:7) and look also (74:31)

• Why would one not accept the Quran's clear testimony, even though the Quran says it is not a book of riddles and has no crookedness?
  "...qur'anan arabiyyan ghayra dhi iwajin ..." (A Quran in Arabic without any crookedness...)

Again, quranic confirmation for the existance of allegorical verses must be sufficient to answer this  point.  There are two types of verses.  The first kind consists of those verses which have definite meaning and constitute the foundation of Allah’s Laws. The second kind are figurative and explain abstract realities metaphorically.    It is unfair to  drag the issue of “crookedness” into allegorical verses.   Moreover,  even assuming such an argument is valid,  I can quote for you a number of verses a person with ordinary understading can not grasp its real meanings without indept study and analysis.   I provide below a few instances;

“And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith” (74:31)

"Whomever God wills to guide, He renders his chest wide open to Submission. And whomever He wills to send astray, He renders his chest intolerant and constricted, as if he were ascending in the sky." 6:125 (We now know the beauty in the statement “as if he were ascending in the sky”)

We ourselves  earlier discussed  verses 2:72-73 and in yourown analysis of this verse you said;   “Verses  2:72-73   often provide an array of interpretations from commentators with different theological perspectives.” ..........................” Whether an actual body was roused from death or whether there is room for a metaphorical interpretation of how God manifests truth of murder will be open to discussion. Such details do not seem to be the purpose of the Quran to expound.”  My question;  Can we say the above verse is a crooked verse due to lack of a direct clear meaning? 

I can quote for you so many verses like the above.  I am sure you yourself will be familiar with more than such verses than myself.   People who use their intellect and reason will be able to grasp the real meaning (more or less) of such verses,  and those who do not use their intelligence may explain such verses as "crooked".  The fault is on us for not properly applying our intelligence.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Optimist,

Salamun Alaikum,

Thank you for your post

Please see my responses to what I understand are your rebuttals. You have chosen to at times deal with my contentions in pairs, thus I have grouped them into contentions for ease of perusal.

Contention Group 1:

Given God's infinite capacity, please provide clear Quranic proof that He cannot temporarily suspend / alter / interfere with the laws He himself has created as and when 'He so wills' to manifest a particular truth

You have proposed to change the question and assert that Allah would not change His ways. You have quoted verses 17:77, 33:62, 40:85, 48:23 and 35:43 as evidence.
 
All the above verses quoted refer to God's way in dealing with former people who have transgressed in some capacity. God is not unjust and does not change the way He deals with people who have transgressed.

These verses have nothing to do with God’s ability to change His laws of nature to manifest a particular truth.

Therefore, I resubmit my contention with a modification as you have asserted that God would not change His ways:

Please can you provide clear Quranic proof that He cannot and would not temporarily suspend / alter / interfere with the laws He himself has created as and when 'He so wills' to manifest a particular truth.


Contention Group 2:

What did God stop / withhold / arrest / prevent / refrain / suspend (mana) in 17:59 going forward that He had sent to previous communities?

How could God stop something (17:59) He did before, if He did not alter His ways?

I humbly find no response to this question in your rebuttal. You mention the Prophet Muhammad. I have never argued that any miracles came to the Prophet. The question is thus - 17:59 clearly states that something was stopped (mana) for communities at the time of the Prophet and those that would come after them. What was stopped?

Furthermore, I find no response to the question: how could God stop something (17:59) He did before, if He did not alter His ways?


Contention Group 3:

Why does the Quran 'confirm' (musaddiqan) the traditional understanding of the Jewish and Christian audience at the time of the Prophet's ministry with regards portents and not challenge it?
Why does the Quran use similar terms in the Arabic language to support the existing understanding of the Jews and Christians regarding portents?

With utmost respect, appealing to isolated Christian theology [in point 1] does not in my view address the contention.

However, as you have submitted the assertion, please can you therefore provide clear evidence that the early Christians unanimously thought of Biblical portents as allegories. It is what the ancients thought which is important as this is whom the Quran came into contact with and not what some modern Biblical theologians may posit as ‘best explanation’

I assert that this is no different to relying on modern Muslim theologians who claim allegories. I look forward to clear evidence for ancient Biblical understanding ideally supported by well documented ancient writings.

Furthermore, I do not find a response to my contention in your points [2], [3], [4] and [5].  I look forward to a further response to my contention.

Contention Group 4:

Why would one not accept the Quran's clear testimony, even though the Quran says it is not a book of riddles and has no crookedness?
"...qur'anan arabiyyan ghayra dhi iwajin ..." (A Quran in Arabic without any crookedness...)

Though you do not reference it per se, you have chosen to cite 3:7 as proof of the existence of allegories in the Quran. May I respectfully remind you that as per 3:7, the foundation of the Quran is based on ‘muhkamatun’ and clear verses, not allegories. There is a difference between clear Arabic text narrated in full to support central Biblical understanding such as portents and isolated texts such as the number of guardians of the fire which you have quoted (74:31).

A considerable portion of the Quran deals with Biblical portents in clear Arabic speech. These are not allegories. I assert with respect, that you have chosen to 'impose' allegories on to clear Arabic text. This is not the purport of verse 3:7.

For example God clearly says in verse 5:110 that Prophet Jesus:

• Made clay birds and then breathed life into them by God's leave - 'fatanfukhu fiha fatakunu tayran bi'idhni' (then you breath into it and it becomes a bird by My permission)
• That he raised the dead by God's leave - 'tukh'riju l-mawta bi'idh'ni' (you bring forth the dead by My permission)

This is clear Arabic speech.

Is God really using clear Arabic speech to provide allegories and then tells us not to follow allegories as it is the approach of the perverted (zayghun)? (3:7)

Therefore, I humbly do not accept your appeal to the mention of 'mutashabihaat' (allegories) in 3:7 to support your rebuttal of my contention.

Finally dear brother, are you at all willing to accept the literal testimony of the Quran that God did in fact suspend His laws when He required to manifest a particular truth to a particular people who were best placed to understand it? That he confirmed (musaddaqan) Biblical narratives by using similar expressions? That He stopped (mana) sending any more portents because He revealed clear evidence that previous people had simply denied it?

If people today cannot accept clear Arabic text that supports the existence of 'portents', can we not see why previous people may have also denied it?

God gives an apt example of a condition of a people that would continue to deny clear evidence.

015:15-16
And even if We opened unto them a gate of heaven and they kept mounting through it, they would say: Our sight is wrong - nay, but we are folk bewitched"

Are you not even willing to consider it as a possibility?

May God bless you always iA.

Your brother in faith,
Joseph.

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Optomist,

Is is great that people like yourself are trying to separate the Quran from the traditional understanding that is marred by secondary sources.

I too decided to step back and start again, realising that I had looked at some subjects through pre conceived ideologies that had no basis from the Quran.

However this does not mean that everything in the Quran needs to be redefined just because the traditionalists practiced or believed in it.

I believe that salaat means physical prayer and that saum means fasting. I also believe that miracles existed.

That does not make me a traditionist. The Quran only approach does not mean that we strip everything back to the point where nothing exists, just leaving a void behind to be filled by big egos who have gone beyond the point of no return.

Shaytaan cannot change the Arabic, but has worked his way through the understanding of the words, to such an extent that we now have a Quran that is unrecognisable.

[optimist]

Salaam Optomist,

Is is great that people like yourself are trying to separate the Quran from the traditional understanding that is marred by secondary sources.

I too decided to step back and start again, realising that I had looked at some subjects through pre conceived ideologies that had no basis from the Quran.

However this does not mean that everything in the Quran needs to be redefined just because the traditionalists practiced or believed in it.

I believe that salaat means physical prayer and that saum means fasting. I also believe that miracles existed.

That does not make me a traditionist. The Quran only approach does not mean that we strip everything back to the point where nothing exists, just leaving a void behind to be filled by big egos who have gone beyond the point of no return.

Shaytaan cannot change the Arabic, but has worked his way through the understanding of the words, to such an extent that we now have a Quran that is unrecognisable.

Wa' alaikumussalam,

Thank you for your comments.   I am also very happy to meet people like you with similar views.  I prefer to accommodate all those who focus only on Quran for guidance.   The points is, differences of opinion on issues like miracles should not be taken as a major hurdle in the Quranic path.    In other words, when someone tells us about Parwez, we should not say, Oh yes Parwez, I know him, the one who denies miracles, who translates and interprets the Quran whimsically!  No can deny his in-depth  knowledge in Arabic  which is evidence from two masterpieces of his life achievement Lughat-ul-Quran & Tabweeb-ul-Quran, both running into several volumes.   The former helps the reader to get clear root meanings of a word, and the latter helps him to know its Quranic concept through tasreef-e-ayat.    We should not overlook his other contributions also.   Please just read one of his works, out of many, "Quranic Laws (Qurani Qawaneen)"  and see how beautifully and convincingly he explains all aspects focusing only on Quran.   Just see the topics that he covers ;  http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/QL/QL.htm

Regarding differences of opinion on issues like miracles, even what Parwez himself had stated was this; “If you do not agree with my corollaries, you may ignore them and make your own decisions by contemplating upon the text. My only objective is to facilitate the work of those intending to tread the Quranic path, (helping them along according to my own ability and breadth of vision), so that they may find it easy to reach the goal. I would like to be their fellow  traveller, not mentor.”

Also towards the end of his work, “Reasons for decline of Muslims”, (the first book I read from Parwez) he makes a passionate appeal to all to write to him, to work together in the Quranic path, and to keep in touch with him in this mission; He says;   

“…….in the world the relationship established through Quranic thought and contemplation and seeing eye to eye in harmony is a relationship so strong and firm that none other relation compares with it.  It is also possible that through this mutual contact and communication, we could give more serious thought on this issue and devise ways and means to remove the obstacles and make the path smoother.  And in this manner  and in the universal light of the Quran, with its discernment and insight go on raising the curtains, the curtains which have fallen for a thousand years of dark conformity with the ancestors and religious tyranny have fallen on them”

Therefore, even if we ignore his views of miracles, we should appreciate and take inspiration from his life, his other major works that are written focusing only on Quran.

[optimist]

Are you not even willing to consider it as a possibility?

Wa' alaikumussalam,

With immense respect to your comments (I may make further comments later if I have any further points) I would like to ask you very politely the same question back.....whether you are willing to consider the narratives in Quran, like Ant's speech, the possibility of an allegory?, considering the fact that an Ant cannot think and act like humans do.  Why it is necessary to insist to give a literal interpretation?    For me,  this allegory of Ant is not a difficult thing to understand especially considering the fact that Solomon had a mighty and powerful army.  Isn't it a possibility Quran allegorically  stating how powerful was the army of Solomon in comparison with the people in the valley, who wanted to avoid and confine themselves into their  dwellings without causing any hindrance to the movement of Solomon’s army lest they might get involved and crushed in the process.   Solomon smiles after he came to know about this news and his immediate prayer is also relevant here.  Solomons then prays   “My Lord, grant me that I may be grateful to Thee, for Thy favour which Thou hast bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and that I may do such good works as would please Thee, and admit me, by Thy mercy, among Thy righteous servants”.    This is not a prayer associated with knowing an Ant’s speech, but this is a prayer as a result of realization of his status and position in comparison with others. 

Now tell me, are you not  willing to consider it even as a possibility?

[Joseph Islam]

Are you not even willing to consider it as a possibility?

Now tell me, are you not  willing to consider it even as a possibility?

Salamun Alaikum,

Of course my dear brother, why wouldn't I? Like you, I too only rely on what I feel is manifest, clear proof.

I must rely on what I believe is the best argument and you must do what you feel is right. We are not responsible for each other.

With respect, I clearly elaborated why I asked you to consider my view.

I have taken clear narratives of the Quran in clear Arabic speech which confirms (Musaddaqan) Biblical portents literally. You do not. I have asserted with respect, that I feel there is no academic warrant for your view in the Quran that God would not alter His laws temporarily if He so Wills to manifest a particular truth. I also strongly contest the use of 'mutashibihaat' based on verse 3:7 when referring to the Quran when it presents clear Arabic speech.

With respect, there is a fundamental difference in my approach to Quranic narratives and yours.

As a believer, I feel that I am instructed to rely on clear Arabic speech and I do not think the Quran is a book of riddles or allegories nor does it present allegories when dealing with full narratives. You feel differently with reasons that you have kindly shared.

Whether you are willing to accept the Quran literally or not is of course your prerogative and only you alone are answerable. Similarly, I am answerable alone for the position I have taken.

However, I would always ask the question, why did God reveal large elucidatory narratives in clear Arabic speech if He was only intending them to be riddles and allegories which he did not want us to pursue? (alladahina fi qulubihim zayghun fayattabiuna ma tashabaha – 3:7) those in their hearts is perversity – so they follow what is allegorical.

Although with respect, returning the question back to me may feel justified on your part, I now feel that we have exhausted our points of view and it is up to the public readership to analyse our discussions sincerely and consider which has the greater cogency.

In the end, Only God knows best.

Thank you for all your input.

Regards,
Joseph. 

[optimist]

(alladahina fi qulubihim zayghun fayattabiuna ma tashabaha – 3:7) those in their hearts is perversity – so they follow what is allegorical.

Salamun Alaikum,

Thank you for your comments.  I liked the discussion with you and I love your sincere heart.   May Allah lead us to the right path and I sincerely prays these differences of opinion on issues like miracles among people who want to focus only on Quran should not lead distract their hearts.   

I have only one comment for the above quote from you related to verse 3:7.   I believe the correct understanding of the above statement from Allah is not the way you have stated.  Let me explain to you.  According to the entire verse in question, Allah's book contains two kinds of verses, the first kind consists of those verses which have definite meaning and constitute the foundation of Allah’s Laws. The second kind are figurative and explain abstract realities metaphorically. (Alladahina fi qulubihim zayghun fayattabiuna ma tashabaha  means those who tend to deviate from Allah’s Path, take the figurative verses in their literal sense thereby causing discord by interpreting these verses in their own way. The correct meaning is not the way you have explained....think.

Let me state some comments for "fi qulubihim zayghun"  in this verse.   "Zaaghatil" absaar زَاغَتِ الْأَبْصَارُ  has been used in  33:10 meaning eyes became distracted.   In 53:17 it says about prophet  مَا زَاغَ الْبَصَرُ وَمَا طَغَىٰ  your sight has neither moved away from the truth nor has it crossed the limit.   The Qur’an says in 61:5 alamma zaaghu  azaghallahu qulubahum meaning when moved away from God’s path, then the law of God or nature made them lean towards that very path (to which they had deviated).  To get the right guidance from the Qur’an, our eyes should be focused,  the comprehension should be blank, that is, there should be no preconception.  The right path is that no matter what our hearts and minds lean towards, we should never digress from the Qur’an; whatever the Qur’an says is haq (the truth) not what our leanings are; any one who goes to the Qur’an with preconceived ideas with the intention of getting confirmation of those ideas from the Qur’an, can never find the right guidance from the Qur’an.

May Allah guide us all to the right path

[optimist]

I am unable to edit......just to add one point......examples of very SEVERE distortion and perversion are literal understanding and explanation of "Hands of Allah", "Allah's face",  "Allah's Throne being on water, etc.   Even such corruption can be found in books of hadith due to such literal understanding.   There is even a hadith in Bukahri stating Allah created Adam in HIS image!!!!!

[optimist]

I assert that this is no different to relying on modern Muslim theologians who claim allegories. I look forward to clear evidence for ancient Biblical understanding ideally supported by well documented ancient writings.

So for example, if Prophet Moses's rod became a snake (Hebrew - naw-khawsh: snake, serpent - Exodus 4:3) and this is how it was always understood by the People of the Book for generations, why did the Quran use a similar expression to describe the same narrative (Arabic: jannun - serpent, snake (27:10) thu'banun: serpent)? 

Dear Brother Joseph,  Salamun Alaikum,

For further consideration at your convenient time, and respecting your valuable time, I would like to mention hereunder couple of points for the above points so far I did not make any comments.  Please consider this as an excercise for evaluating all possible probabitilies.
   
1.  There is every possibility that narratives in christian scriptures are also stated allegorically and later generations took them in the literal sense (majority view has no basis when it comes to truth).  So the usage of the same word for snake (Hebrew - naw-khawsh: snake, serpent - Exodus 4:3) is justified.

2.  If the fact remains as the biblical narratives are also allegorically explained in Christian scriptures it is not necessary all those same narratives should have been literally explained in the Quran.   There is a purpose why certain things are allegorically explained and it remains the same.

3.  Now, a genuine question; In spite of the fact that the Christians and Jews “Understood”  those narratives in their scriptures in the literal sense during prophet’s time, why the Quran does not clarify the real situation?  This question has no substance due to the followings;

(a)  It could be interpreted as God deliberately changing His way, sometimes allegorically explaining things and sometimes the same things are explained literally.   
(b)  The real situation still remains the same, things cannot be literally explained.   
(c)   It would have created confusion and it would not have served any purpose since the people themselves were demanding miracles from the prophet and the people were generally not physiologically mature to appreciate such theological aspect.
(d)   Sufficient warnings have been given in the Quran about the fact of allegorical explanation of things and the danger of interpreting allegorical verses literally (3:7).

These are just my views.....appreciate your comments at your convenient time.   

Allah bless you

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Optimist,

Salamun Alaikum

We can continue to surmise ad infinitum. With respect, you will have to provide clear evidence that the Christians at the time of the Quran's revelation understood these narratives as allegories.

We know how the Christians understood these narratives of the Bible before the time of the Quran.  At the time of the revelation of the Quran, these thoughts were not corrected, but confirmed. This would have been the perfect time for the Quran to correct Biblical theology as it does in other areas. However, it did not.

I think this is not only a waste of your precious time, but also of the readership if we keep submitting 'possibilities' without any evidence whatsoever. I have already humbly concluded my discussion with you on this topic with respect so I do not see any mileage further in this discussion to ensue between us especially in the absence of concrete academic evidence.

I have laid out my contentions clearly and feel I have exhausted my perspective on this.

Once again, please accept my post as the last on this topic.

With respect.

Joseph.