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Offline Talib

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The Secret of Universe
« on: July 15, 2012, 05:25:03 AM »
Salamun Alaikum


Recently, I saw this video that was forwarded to me by a friend. I would like to have views about the concept/information in this video in the light of Quran.

Various Quranic verses come up in mind that MAY BE related/assumed/confused? to be telling something like this. Is it ?

http://thesecret.tv/thesecretfilm/

http://www.youtube.com/user/aSecretAgent?feature=relchannel


I focus more on understanding Quran and implementing the directives given (in my limits) but some of my friends seem to suggest that Quran also tells us something like this..

I feel delighted to have learned personalities here to speak to and would appreciate to have views on this.

Thank you

Talib
(student)

P.S.
With thanks for the very nice reply earlier, I am looking forward to have Dear Optimist's view on this. Simply because I find his reply very helpful and thought provoking. Somehow, I find his reply related to the above concept. Would like to be clarified if I am mistaken.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=413.0

Offline Saba

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Re: The Secret of Universe
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2012, 02:27:42 PM »
Aslamaolaikum brother Talib -

I am looking forward to have Dear Optimist's view on this. Simply because I find his reply very helpful and thought provoking. Somehow, I find his reply related to the above concept. Would like to be clarified if I am mistaken.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=413.0

I hope you don't mind me giving a reply on this too!!

I think the law of attraction has been criticized to some degree because it has quite a negative side to it too 'Certain bad things happen to people, because they bring it into reality'. Then what about famine, plane crashes, diseases, poverty etc etc?

Also - you could be down in the dumps and in a really bad way thinking of really negative things and then suddenly something really good happens which changes everything. How did those negative thoughts then bring a positive result?? Sometimes you may have no expectation for a certain good to happen and then it does.

Then there is also some confusion over being optimistic and the law of attraction. For example it is good to be optimistic by keeping trust in Allah.

065.003
YUSUFALI: And He provides for him from (sources) he never could imagine. And if any one puts his trust in Allah, sufficient is (Allah) for him. For Allah will surely accomplish his purpose: verily, for all things has Allah appointed a due proportion.

But saying that we bring something into reality as a law of attraction in some ways does away with the need for Allah (Astagfurullah) which is false from an Islamic view I think.

However, some interesting info on Wiki for this and also a discussion blog below which looks at this from an Islamic point of view. The comments are very interesting to the blog (please scroll to the bottom after reading the blog). Saba  8)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_attraction

http://muslim-mind.com/2011/05/optimism-and-the-law-of-attraction-in-islam/

Offline optimist

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Re: The Secret of Universe
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2012, 12:26:48 AM »
Salamun Alaikum


Recently, I saw this video that was forwarded to me by a friend. I would like to have views about the concept/information in this video in the light of Quran.

Various Quranic verses come up in mind that MAY BE related/assumed/confused? to be telling something like this. Is it ?

http://thesecret.tv/thesecretfilm/

http://www.youtube.com/user/aSecretAgent?feature=relchannel


I focus more on understanding Quran and implementing the directives given (in my limits) but some of my friends seem to suggest that Quran also tells us something like this..

I feel delighted to have learned personalities here to speak to and would appreciate to have views on this.

Thank you

Talib
(student)
Salamun Alaikum,

According to Islam, man has two aspects of existence; one: physical existence where he is similar to animals; two: human life where he should follow a code of law referred to as ‘permanent values’, given to him through divine revelation and meant to develop his ‘personality’.   

Allah says “Allah has rendered harnessable for you all whatever there is in the Earth and in the skies” (45:13). Harnessing the forces of nature is a human attribute; keeping them within  the  confines of the divine permanent- value system is a humane (mo’min) attribute. This causes Man’s potential capabilities to manifest to incredible heights.   The Quran refers to such men as ‘the elevated’ (3:138).   They patiently struggle in the path of  Islam with firm conviction keeping in mind Allah’s message; “Slacken not nor grieve; and you shall certainly have the upper hand, if you are true believers.” (3:139)   This ambition to rise up was the driving force behind the phenomenal success of early Muslims.

The selfish and the greedy exploiters of men, alarmed by the situation, got to work against it. They knew it very clearly that the Muslims had to be dissuaded from the idea that Man can shape his own destiny. Therefore, their adversaries and opponents began – according to a well thought-out conspiracy --- to propagate the age-old belief of pre-decided destiny of Man.    With the passage of time, the idea  of  pre-destiny of  Man  attained  the   sanctity  of  a  religious dogma and, subsequently, an  article  of  faith.  The  idea spread the notion that dominance and subjugation, status, wealth, happiness and tragedy, success and failure, etc. are all directly controlled by Allah.  No human effort can alter individual or collective destiny pre-decided by Him. Therefore, one should be content with whatever state one is in. Consequently, Muslims, the shapers of the world’s destiny, have been reduced to a lethargic,  inactive, unscientific-minded group

The focal point of the Quran is the Law of Returns --- every human action bears a result, sooner or later.   That makes Man responsible for his actions.   Human life is governed by these categories of laws:

1. Physical (laws of physics, chemistry, biology etc.) governing the human body.
2. Social laws enacted by government / society.
3. Permanent Values (moral & ethical laws) affecting the human personality.

In all the three areas, Quran hold man responsible for all actions, individual or collective. In 1 & 2 it may happen that one has to face consequences of someone else’s actions; for example, someone drowns in a river because somebody pushes one off a bridge (or the bridge gives way because of faulty workmanship); famine strikes because of bad administration; floods ravage an area; or war creates havoc, etc.  Even in such cases every individual is responsible either directly or indirectly since an individual is a part / member of a society.  A good harvest benefits even those not connected with farming at all. On the other hand, a bursting dam extends its damage even to those who have nothing at all to do with its construction or maintenance. This is why the Quran say:  “Try to protect your society against a danger which is not restricted to the people responsible for it” (8:25).   A society is nothing but a collection of individuals who have the potential of enforcing change.  In point 3, however, every person bears consequences of one’s own action. 

At the same time, all actions of Man, individual or collective, produce reactions.   In fact, this is stated as the reason for the existence of this Universe: “Allah created the skies and the earth (the universe) rightfully to get everyone the result of his actions and to stop all wrongdoing” (45:22).  Quran says: “Man can get only what he strives for” (53:39). Also, “Man is entitled to what he works for” (20:15). A just society is the one in which “no one’s efforts go wasted” (21:94) and that in which “your efforts bear results” (17:18-21).   Suffice to say that “Everyone is mortgaged by his own actions” (74:38) and “Whatever one does produces results” (9:82; 9:95; 14:51; 16:96-97; 40:17).  Elsewhere, the Quran states: “everyone shall get the result of one’s actions” (34:33). It is repeated in (7/147; 52/16; 56/24; 83/36) etc.  Even Allah doesn’t interfere.  Allah says to men: “Do whatever you will” (41:40), and the said verse goes on to say  “Do whatever you wish. Surely, whatever you do (will bear a result, as it) is watched by Him” (41:40).  That is: your are free to do whatever you wish but not free to alter the natural result of that action.  Allah just keeps a watch: “Allah sees your actions” (2:237). “He knows them” (2:234). “No action can go unnoticed by Him”. (2:144), even “Allah knows what is in your hearts” 2:235).  “Allah watches your actions” means that no action can escape the Law of Returns - “Allah surrounds whatever you do” (3:119).

The connection between an  action and result is illustrated in the Quran at various places.   An individual as well as a group of people who resolves to carryout the Divine Program, and works accordingly, sees plentiful fruit borne by their efforts: “O Convinced! If you help Allah, He will help you!” (47:7).  The verse goes on to say: “And those who reject have failure and disappointment coming as their efforts do not bear fruit and are wasted”.  This steadfastness brings divine support with the condition that the Convinced display perseverance and obedience of Allah’s laws (3:122–125). “Your one hundred shall triumph over two hundred of the opponents because ‘Allah is with the steadfast (8:66).  Those who go against the divine system, Sura Bani Israel says: “When they disgraced, Allah (‘s Law of Return of Deeds) twisted their hearts,” (61:5). They (the children of Israel) were told that if they followed the last messenger of Allah, they would be absolved of their miserable life, but: ‘ If you return (to your previous attitude), We will (also) return (to giving you the same miserable life once again) 17:8. Allah’s law is: “Whoever turns away (from Him), is turned  away” (51:9). Sura Tauba reports: “When they turned away, Allah turned their hearts away” (9:127).

Like individuals, this law applies to nations as well - “Your predecessor (nations of past) bore the consequences of what they did and you will have what you work for. You will not be queried about their actions” (2:134).  As long a nation keeps on the right path (Allah’s way) it retains its glory. When it defies Allah’s Law, decline sets in. It enjoys a period of respite (within which there is a chance of correcting itself to retain the glory) before the decline and fall is complete. That nation is then replaced by another who has been following Allah’s way.  “Every nation has an ajal (period of life) - (10:40), and Every ajal has a book (law) - (13:38).    This Law is strictly enforced:  “No nation can hurry or delay it.” (23:43).  The period of respite can save a nation if it redeems and improves itself. Otherwise, it is destroyed.   That’s why the Quran cites many historical evidences to illustrate its law of rise and fall of nations, and aptly terms it ”a known law”. (15:4).  That is why Allah request us to travel through earth and learn from their history. This is “Allah’s way” which never changes (35:43).  Early Muslims, who had, as a result of following Allah’s way achieved power and glory (24:55) were told:“If you refrain from struggle (for life and survival), you will face tragic misfortune -- another nation will replace you -- and you will be helpless. These are Allah’s measures.”  (9:39), (11:57).

A tyrannical people, who exploit and suppress humanity, appear to go on prospering, is really passing through its ajal (the period of respite). Sura Namal Says: “ If (Allah had not provided the period of respite and) people were apprehended quickly after their unfairness, the Earth would have lost its inhabitants. Allah delays (the apprehension) till a certain period of respite (ajal).  When that period expires, their destruction occurs at the specific time -- not a minute before or after” (16:61; also 35:45).

Note, our prophet had the mission to  revolutionize mankind.  He spent his life through back-breaking and frustrating struggles against all odds. Towards the twilight of his life he was naturally anxious about the result of his efforts. Allah responded thus: “Certainly, We can bring, what We promise, for you to see (but because everything happens according to set laws - Respite and Returns --), your responsibility is to spread (the message) and We have the responsibility of (its result according to set) calculations –“ (13:40).

Note, Allah, who is not willing to alter His set ‘calculations’ even for His messenger cannot be imagined to ‘do whatever and whenever He likes (whimsically)’. The entire universe and everything therein functions and operates by set ‘calculations’.

Hope this helps.
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: The Secret of Universe
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2012, 11:58:57 AM »
Salaam,

Thanks for all the posts. I note that Optomist, in your post, the Quranic verses quoted are in places off kilter. If I am not mistaken, are they from QXP by any chance?

I think that the traditional idea of pre-destiny is confusing to many people because they think that they have no control over their actions when clearly that is not the case from the Quran.

However to say that God has no involvement in their journey through life is not correct either.

God is not bound by time and is aware of our actions at any given point in our lives. He didn't make us do those actions but He is involved in the course our lives take and He does indeed present us with situations and thoughts to which we respond with free will.

22.40 attests the fact that had God not intervened, people would have torn down the synagogues.

If things were left to just cause and effect, then the whole Earth would be in a state of disorder and mischief (2.251)

He clearly disposes our affairs (13.2) Also we are told  that He plots against those who plot which tells us that He is involved and will interject when He sees fit.

It is not simply a case of cause and effect with no involvement from God as we are told that we will be tested according to our individual faculties.




Offline optimist

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Re: The Secret of Universe
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2012, 04:37:15 AM »
It is not simply a case of cause and effect with no involvement from God
Salamun alaikum,

Brother, you may have come across the following verse from Quran;

“Allah knows what is in the seas and on land. He knows every leaf that falls off a tree. He also knows even a grain in the darkness of the Earth. The truth is that each and every thing (in detail) is there in the clearly-set book.” (6:59)

The above verse clearly states the whole universe and whatever happens in the universe occurs  according to firm and permanent laws designed before the creation of the universe, which is repeated in Quran at many places. 

“No calamity comes to a country nor to yourselves which was not pre-written in a book before We created this world. Verily, this is easy for Allah so that you don’t grief over what you can’t get or boast over what He gave you. And Allah doesn’t like the boastful show-offs.” (57/22-23)

This law is strictly followed even in the case of rise and fall of nations. 

“If (Allah had not provided the period of respite and) people were apprehended quickly after their unfairness, the Earth would have lost its inhabitants. Allah delays (the apprehension) till a certain period of respite (ajal). When that period expires, their destruction occurs at the specific time -- not a minute before or after” (16:61; also 35:45).  This Law is strictly enforced:  “No nation can hurry or delay it.” ( 23:43). The period of respite can save a nation if it redeems and improves itself. Otherwise, it is destroyed.

“And [bear in mind:] there is no community which We will not destroy before the Day of Resurrection, or chastise [even earlier, if it proves sinful,] with suffering severe: all this is laid down in Our decree.”(17:58).  كَانَ ذَٰلِكَ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَسْطُورًا That is to say that standards have been set to all things in the universe and are there for anyone to read if they so wish.

Also, Quran says in 9:51 (conventionally translated as): “Say (to them), we shall not get but whatever Allah has already written down for us. Only He is our benefactor, and Muslims should rely on Allah alone.”   The true meaning of it , however, is: (Exposition by Parwez) “Tell them that whatever happens to us is (not according to your misconceptions or ill-will) under the Law of Returns, Therefore, whatever occurs is inevitable according to that law and is unavoidable. We, the Muslims, are convinced fully of its validity and permanence. We are, therefore, not upset over whatever you might say.”

In the verse above quoted,  قُلْ لَنْ يُصِيبَنَا إِلَّا مَا كَتَبَ اللَّهُ لَنَا, the Arabic word ‘Kataba’ literally means to write (here ‘has written or wrote). Since writing makes something permanent, it is used to refer to a permanent decision (law). This is supported by the well known verse about fasting 2:183.  كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الصِّيَامُ كَمَا كُتِبَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ

When a law is set into operation, it does not mean that there is no involvement of Allah.   It is a wrong understanding.   In fact, it substantiates Allah’s strength where He formulates laws with the rule that those laws are unchangeable.  Allah made laws through issuing orders before the creation of the universe which stand for all time. A law can be tested for its validity by the results it claims to produce, which is not so with an order or instruction.   This does not do away with Allah.  It only substantiates His strength and power.   Allah doesn’t lose any power by binding himself in His own Laws. In fact, such a Allah is worthy of being Allah. He is a Allah who can be trusted because His laws are reliable. Despite having the power to do so, He doesn’t break laws. 

“And there is not a thing but its (sources and) treasures (inexhaustible) are with Us; but We only send down thereof in due and ascertainable measures.”(15:21)

Even the verses you have quoted, Allah does not go contrary to his Decree (which is in a clear book/ record) before the creation of the universe.   Allah's law operates through many ways.   For instance, years of hard struggle had resulted in the Muslims’ own sovereign rule in the town of Yathrib (Medina). In the meantime, Muslims still trapped in Mecca came under increasing oppression at the hands of the Quresh. The oppressed Muslims prayed to Allah for their salvation. Allah said to the Muslims in Medina: “What has come upon you that you do not take up arms in Allah’s way? The weak men, women and children call out to US.: “O our Preserve! Take us out of this town of transgressors. Please send some helper and friend for us!” – (4:75).  Clearly, Allah does not help the oppressed directly. He does it indirectly through other men.
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

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Re: The Secret of Universe
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2012, 10:49:57 AM »
Salaam,

Firstly, just to let everyone know if they don't already, that I am a sister  :D

I am in agreement with you about the fact that all was arranged before the creation of the Universe. This however does not mean that God does not interject in our lives, it in fact confirms it because He knew of all the scenarios we would be in and what help we would ask of Him and He responded in kind.

Quote
When a law is set into operation, it does not mean that there is no involvement of Allah


I agree. Just because God decided what laws of nature to apply or suspend and also what He wanted to implement of His will on mankind BEFORE creating us, it does not mean that He is not shaping our paths.

We are not aware of what is to come next in our lives because we work linearly. So for example when we pray for something and a positive response is received, we naturally feel that God has responded to us in that moment, when in fact He had done so before time.

He is in the past, present and future so He is involved all the time, implementing not only the laws of nature, but also implementing His will that He decided on BEFORE creating us.

Quote
Even the verses you have quoted, Allah does not go contrary to his Decree (which is in a clear book/ record) before the creation of the universe.

Then we are in agreement? The fact that God for example, helping people directly /indirectly in their lives is already set in a decree, then that would be implemented to the letter in our lifetimes.

Offline optimist

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Re: The Secret of Universe
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2012, 10:35:26 PM »
He is in the past, present and future so He is involved all the time, implementing not only the laws of nature, but also implementing His will that He decided on BEFORE creating us.
Wassalam,

There is a difference in our understanding in the sense, you assume God needs to “interfere” to involve and to implement the laws of nature and everything He decided before creating the universe.   This is due to a misconception of the relationship between God and the world. You seem to compare the situation like a producer of a mechanical device and the need to involve every now to operate the device.  The relationship between God and the world is different.  Allah while creating the world, created also mechanism to continue to sustain and foster it without any outside interference based on concrete laws.  That is why the world is amenable to human reason. As man ceaselessly explores the world and probes its nature, he brings to light hitherto hidden aspects of the laws that govern its working.  Conceived in this way, the Divine Will is seen to be organically and essentially related to the world which literally exists and lives in God. The world, therefore, and all things in it are in direct and intimate contact with the Will of Allah every moment of their existence.  Allah does not need to make outside intervention as you seem to suggest. 

Quote
Just because God decided what laws of nature to apply or suspend and also what He wanted to implement of His will on mankind BEFORE creating us, it does not mean that He is not shaping our paths.

Allah does guide and shape our path.  It is through revelation only. Man can work out his destiny by making full use of his intellectual powers granted by Allah and by seeking guidance in the Revelation. Nothing will be imposed upon man whimsically. 

Quote
So for example when we pray for something and a positive response is received, we naturally feel that God has responded to us in that moment, when in fact He had done so before time.

Firstly, your example is not very clear to me.  You have to explain to me using any specific case.

If you are saying that we sometimes receive outside positive response (unconnected with any laws/ rules/ cause and effect/ law of returns, etc) when we pray, it is not a correct understanding.  In Islam prayer does not change the order of things.  “Verily God will not change the condition of men, till they change what is in themselves.”  Prayer purifies, enlightens and at last transforms those who submit themselves to it.   The prayer benefits man to achieve his goals.  The  verbalization  of  desire is prayer. It creates motivation, hope and confidence.  Prayer delivers us from two great enemies of freedom – doubt and fear.  Prayer prepares one psychologically for the coming actions.  Allama Iqbal said;   “prayer ... is an expression of man’s inner yearning for response in the awful silence of the universe……..when a group of persons all animated by the same passion and concentrating on the same object join in prayer, such an association “multiplies the normal man’s power of perception, deepens his emotion and dynamizes his will to a degree unknown to him the privacy of his individuality.” 

One  can  only  wonder  at  the linguistic depth the pre-Islamic Arabic had reached. The simple nomads of the Jahiliya period before the prophet used to milk their animals but not quite, leaving a little in there to induce down more. That little amount of milk left was also called (الداعية) (the caller; the prayer).  This illustrates prayer in the human context, i.e., the condition which spurs emotions into action for subsequent performance.  For more reading please go through the following link.

http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/kt/kt_17.htm
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Saba

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Re: The Secret of Universe
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2012, 10:52:28 PM »
Aslamaolaikum Optimist,

To be honest ..... I find your post extremely confusing. What do you mean by laws? laws of physics etc or Allah's will which is not dependent on His created laws???  :-\ I feel you are mixing the two up. Also it seems you are thinking of Allah linearly when Truth seeker I feel has clearly said that Allah does not work linearly.

Also please (if u dont mind) can you refrain from making bold statements such as 'this is a misconception' or 'it is not a correct understanding' and kindly prefix it with 'in my opinion or it is my view etc etc '. Sorry, but I feel this would make for better reading and not make you come across as rigid - undisputed authority on Islam - convinced of your position.

If you are an authority, then I am sorry, please can you refer me to your work... articles or website where I can get a better understanding of your views (you don't have to be a scholar but some sort of detailed work or analysis from verses would be nice). This will give your overall view about Islam and how you reached it and not the views of another scholar. At the moment, all I see is you continuously pushing forward another scholar's view which I have seen you do on other threads too.

Because if you are convinced of your position, nothing said here will change your mind and then this forum will only be used as for advertising your scholar's views. Your mind is made.

At the moment, I do not find your views persuasive and it does not deal with any of the verses that truth seeker raised. But don't get me wrong, I really do enjoy some of your posts as well    ;D  My two cents .......  Thanx.  8)

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Re: The Secret of Universe
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2012, 09:45:43 PM »
To be honest ..... I find your post extremely confusing. What do you mean by laws? laws of physics etc or Allah's will which is not dependent on His created laws???  :-\

Wassalam,

I will make comments for your above main question now.

You seem to assume Allah's will in the created world is not based on any rules or laws.  If I give you answer in one statement it would be; Allah's will in the created world is nothing but Allah's Law.  Before explaining this statement with support of verses from Quran I want to make a comment on one point. There are two worlds of Allah -  Amr and Khalq .   Khalq is the created world and Amr is whatever beyond.   Allah’s domain of Amr relates to creation from nothingness, where He is NOT  bound by any laws. This is exclusive to Allah and Allah alone  and there are no binding laws .  Allah does whatever he wants.   However, in the ‘Domain of ‘Khalq’,  Allah’s will is bound by laws (33:38).  Allah set a standard to everything’ (65:3). The truth is that each and every thing (in detail) is there in the clearly-set book.” (6:59).  In the physical world of creation it is cause and effect and the social world of humans it is law of returns, law of respite and Law of Requital. Every action recoils on the doer. Right action has consequences which are beneficial to man and enrich and strengthen his self. Wrong actions invariably weaken and debase him.   

I will show you evidence from Quran itself to prove that Allah's will in the created law is nothing but Allah's Law;

1.   Allah attributes many incidents to Himself because they occur according to His Law of Returns. For instance, “When they disgraced, Allah (‘s Law of Return of Deeds) twisted their hearts,” (61:5).  “When they turned away, Allah turned their hearts away” (9:127).  “When they went crooked, Allah crooked their hearts” (His law of Returns did it) – (61:5; 51:9; 9:127).    The same is applicable for verses like “Allah sealed their hearts”.  It happens due to Law of returns.   Let us see a verse that clarifies the phrase  “Allah  has sealed their hearts” . It says:  “No, it’s not like that! But (the reality is that) their hearts get rusted because of their own deeds! (83:14).

2.    “O Messenger! The dissenters pester you tauntingly to bring upon them the dreaded destruction. Tell them that it not upto you (the messenger). Say: ‘I am not empowered (even) to hurt or benefit myself outside the bounds of laws established by Allah” (10:49)., Also: “there is a law for everything. When the period of respite is over, the (destruction) comes right on time” (10:49).

3.   The prophet had to spent his life striving in the cause of Allah and naturally he was anxious about the result of his efforts.  Allah’s comment was; “Certainly, We can bring, what We promise, for you to see (but because everything happens according to set laws - Respite and Returns --), your responsibility is to spread (the message) and We have the responsibility of (its result according to set) calculations –“ (13:40).

4.   ‘Man  can have no knowledge of things except for whatever (Allah) wills” (2:255). It should be taken as to mean that Man can obtain knowledge
through laws already established by Allah.

5.   “And  We  keep  it  (the fetus)  in  the wombs till a declared (fixed) period as We desire  –“ (22:5). Obviously,  ‘as we  desire doesn’t mean that Allah decides the duration of each fetus individually. The entire process is subject to natural biological laws. Therefore ‘as We desire (ما نشاء ) means: according to (the law) which Allah has already willed (established).

6.   An  incidence  regarding  human  birth  mentioned  in  the  Quran  may  be relevantly   interesting,  i. e.,   the   Messenger   Zakariya begetting Yahya (John). Zakariya was quite old and his wife was infertile and, naturally, did not expect to have children. Therefore, he was doubtfully surprised when given the news of a forthcoming son. Allah’s reply in verse 3:39 which is traditionally translated thus: “Allah does whatever He wills”. This does not mean that Allah arbitrarily decided to give Zakariya a child. It all happened under natural medical laws – he was still fertile and his wife’s deficiency was removed (21:90), so they had a child, perfectly according to natural laws.

7.            Sura Baqara says that Allah, through His Messengers, sent guidance to mankind advising them against bloodshed. But people would resume mutual killings and Allah says “If Allah had willed it so, they would not have killed…….. (2:253). Allah does not exercise compulsion on men. They are free to choose their path.

I will look forward to your comments for the above before explaining any further.

Kind regards

Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Saba

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Re: The Secret of Universe
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2012, 10:47:20 PM »
I agree with created laws.  But I also think you assume too much. You impose this created law on His will and limit Allah which I feel is wrong.

Also it is not correct in my view that you use your own chosen translations with words such as 'laws established by Allah" to prove your point.

In the following verse, can you prove to me how in your understanding Allah 'stopped' people from pulling down monasteries, churches and synagogues. Remember, it was the will of the people to do this. How did Allah impose His will to stop them when it was their wish to do so?

"..........And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty...."  22:40   ............Salam

Offline optimist

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Re: The Secret of Universe
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2012, 12:58:12 AM »
In the following verse, can you prove to me how in your understanding Allah 'stopped' people from pulling down monasteries, churches and synagogues. Remember, it was the will of the people to do this. How did Allah impose His will to stop them when it was their wish to do so?

"..........And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty...."  22:40   ............Salam
Salamun alaikum,

In short, Allah will never ever let loose a rebellious force forever.  Human history is full of fight between the forces of good and forces of evil, upholders of justice and its opponents.   This  fight between the two forces is a natural struggle culminating ultimately in the victory of truth.   Look at this verse;

“So wage war against them. Allah will chastise them through your instrumentality, and put them to shame by giving you victory over them - victory which will relieve you of the fear and anxiety on account of your enemies. Despite all this, the doors of repentance are still open to them. This is how Allah’s Law  operates. He knows and is Wise” (9:14-15)

This is how it happens.  Allah does not directly interfere.  It is through the medium of others who are upholders of Justice Allah “stops” the criminals and the transgressors.   See how Allah beautifully explains the situation in another verse;

“You had slain your enemies but indeed it was Allah who slew them because you were fighting in His cause. When you sent forth a shaft of arrows it was not you who did it but Allah (Allah’s programme in the world of human beings is carried out through them) (8:17-18)

Please note how Allah explains the situation as if Allah Himself is killing and sending forth shaft of arrows!  THINK

And as I explained in one of my previous post, when Muslims in Mekkah were persecuted  Allah instructed the Muslims in Medina: “What has come upon you that you do not take up arms in Allah’s way? The weak men, women and children call out to US.: “O our Preserve! Take us out of this town of transgressors. Please send some helper and friend for us!” – (4:75).

Clearly, Allah does not help the oppressed directly. He does it indirectly through other men

Kind regards,

Abdul Samad
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Saba

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Re: The Secret of Universe
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2012, 01:33:03 AM »
Sorry, but this does not answer my question at all.

No matter how you look at 9:14-15, I feel it proves my point NOT yours. Allah clearly intervened and changed the outcome. Even if He uses one people against another, He is exerting His will to change the outcome at a particular point.

Whether He uses others or not is NOT THE ISSUE. Please don't confuse the matter. This is something I feel you often do you in your line of thinking and your posts.

It is Allah's active involvement and Him changing the outcome which is the issue here. Just like when Allah interfered and responded to Zakariyaah's prayer for a child (Surah Mariam). I feel you keep missing the point.

Now back to my example again .............. at the point where someone wants to pull down a church, synagogue etc, How does Allah change the course of action? Who He uses is not the point here. If He can change the course of an outcome, He has interfered. He didn't change His mind on the spot, but He knew something will take place and guided a course of action so that the matter could be stopped.    Thanks Saba


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Re: The Secret of Universe
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2012, 02:06:18 AM »
Salaam,

Optimist, I think that if you take what Saba is saying regarding Zakariyyah's child further, God responded to Zakkariyah's request and his barren wife gave birth.

God did not respond instantly to this prayer. HE KNEW ABOUT THE REQUEST BEFORE HE CREATED THE UNIVERSE and responded accordingly by granting the couple a child. He put the plan in action BEFORE the request was even made because He is not bound by a linear time scale as we are.

We always act according to our volition to given situations. However at times, specific situations have been put forth by God ( who again designed them prior to our existence) in order to test us.

For example, the fish were found to be plentiful only on the Sabbath. God planned that situation but the peoples' response to it was ENTIRELY their own. They exercised their free will fully to a situation that God had presented to them, but had set out in His decree aforetime.

Thanks

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Re: The Secret of Universe
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2012, 04:20:40 AM »
Sorry, but this does not answer my question at all.

No matter how you look at 9:14-15, I feel it proves my point NOT yours. Allah clearly intervened and changed the outcome. Even if He uses one people against another, He is exerting His will to change the outcome at a particular point.

Whether He uses others or not is NOT THE ISSUE. Please don't confuse the matter. This is something I feel you often do you in your line of thinking and your posts.
Salam,

Wherein 9:14-15 Allah says Allah intervened.    Even in the previous verse 9:13 Allah motivates the believers to fight the enemies.     

“Just think - what hesitation could there possibly be in fighting against those who break their oaths so frequently, expelled the Rasool and attacked you first? Do you fear them? If you are true Momineen you should fear only the consequences of disobeying Allah’s laws”. 9:13
 
Just look at the following verse where Allah analyse the strength of Muslims in relation to their enemies (which according to your analysis not needed)

“Now Allah has lightened your (task), for He knows that there is weakness in you. So if there are of you a hundred steadfast persons, they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a thousand of you, they shall overcome two thousand with the Leave of Allah.”(8:66)

In the very previous verse 8:66 Allah had stated, in the ideal situation 20 Muslims can overpower 200 and 100 can overpower 2000.  If there is intervention there is no need for this analysis.  Whatever be the number of Muslims, they will surely overpower any number of enemies.  In this regard, battle of Uhud is very important.   The Muslims received severe setback.  Quran says about this incident;  “Afterwards, when you pondered upon the setback with ‘ How did it happen?’, Allah’s reply to that was: “Tell, (them O Prophet!), that was from your own selves.” (3:165).

Why Muslims got setback in Uhud?  Why Allah did not intervene?  When victory comes Allah intervenes and when suffers loses Allah does not!!  Afterwards see how Allah comforts the righteous after the war: “Why worry over your problems? Your opponents also face them” (4:104). “These universal laws apply to all mankind” (3:139).

The success of early Muslims was due to their hard work and great effort in Allah’s way and they were even warned;

“Remember, if you do not march forth Allah will certainly chastise you with a serious chastisement - that He will replace you by another people (47:38)

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Even if He uses one people against another, He is exerting His will to change the outcome at a particular point.

This is not a valid argument.   You are mixing revelation and guidance from Allah with intervention.   This is not the topic under discussion.   

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It is Allah's active involvement and Him changing the outcome which is the issue here. Just like when Allah interfered and responded to Zakariyaah's prayer for a child (Surah Mariam). I feel you keep missing the point.


Quran says Zakariya's wife's disease was cured which is a proof that this is in accordance with natural law only.

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Now back to my example again .............. at the point where someone wants to pull down a church, synagogue etc, How does Allah change the course of action? Who He uses is not the point here.

You are going too literal understanding of the verse.   Allah did not say Allah will come for rescue every time a mosque, church or synagogue is demolished.   The verse means Allah will never ever let loose a rebellious force forever.   The destruction of an rebellious force is inevitable and it is natural law. The fight between right and wrong is an ongoing process every point of time.  A rebellious force may appear to prosper at a point of time, which is actually going through a period of respite.  When the period of respite is over, the destruction comes right on time (16:61).   Even a nation can even hurry or delay it (23/43).   

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If He can change the course of an outcome, He has interfered

You have to re-read what I posted earlier.  Well, Quran contains so many verses that motivate Muslims to take up arms to protect innocent women and children who cry for help, verses that psychologically prepare them to face their enemies, verses instructing and advising Muslims not to fear their enemies but to fear Allah alone,  verses encouraging them to prepare for war with all means,  verses strongly warning Muslims not to turn back during battle unless it is a war tactic.  If you are telling all these as intervention from Allah, I have no comments.

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He didn't change His mind on the spot, but He knew something will take place and guided a course of action so that the matter could be stopped. 
 

Can you tell me a scenario or an example (even imaginary)? 

Kind regards,

Abdul Samad
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Saba

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Re: The Secret of Universe
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2012, 04:57:08 AM »
Dear Abdul Samad (Nice of u to share your name)

Thanks for the post, but once again ... I find you are not answering the question and I find that you are evading it!

Once again, please explain how at the point where someone wants to pull down a church, synagogue etc, How did Allah change the course of action? Your response " The fight between right and wrong is an ongoing process every point of time" is poor and a convenient way out.
 
If He can change the course of an outcome, He has interfered. Like I said before, He didn't change His mind on the spot, but He knew something will take place and guided a course of action so that the matter could be stopped.   

Similarly when Musa (pbh) asked for Aaron (pbh) to be sent with him, Allah answered his prayer (20:36). How do you explain that?????? Please do not tell me that this is a riddle too!

Please don't keep confusing the matter and using the same accusation about literal reading of the Quran. If you want to read the Quran as riddles then it is up to you - please don't impose this on others!  It seems you do not want to accept what the Quran is saying and are changing the meanings. You keep saying to me THINK - Please can YOU also THINK!....

Also you say:
This is not a valid argument.   You are mixing revelation and guidance from Allah with intervention.   This is not the topic under discussion.   

This is a very VALID argument!!! Why is not valid - because you say so???? or because you can't answer it using your method of thinking? Even if Allah uses one people against another, He is exerting His will to change the outcome at a particular point. This has nothing to do with mixing revelation and guidance.


Also you say:

Quran says Zakariya's wife's disease was cured which is a proof that this is in accordance with natural law only.

What are you talking about br. Abdul Samad???? You make a claim that the Quran says that Zakarya's wife had a disease. ASTAGHFURULLAH Where does the Quran say this? Where ?????

Please don't attribute words to Allah which he never said!!!! Astagfurullah.

The Quran only says she was barren! (19.5) unless you want to make it riddles again or give new meanings to the word! Thanks - Saba