The Secret of Universe

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam,

To make it easier to explain what I was saying earlier about God not being time bound, please see this illustration :

http://quransmessage.com/charts%20and%20illustrations/time%20and%20space/timespace%20FM2.htm

[Joseph Islam]

Salamun Alaikum brother Abdul and all,

May I suggest that we all share our opinions with an open mind and with continuing respect. If we are only going to present our opinions as "I am right and you are wrong no matter what", then this will not be a sincere discussion to understand the best argument but an attempt to outwit the opponent and the discourse will inevitably digress.

Also brother Abdul, please may I kindly suggest that you refrain from propounding the views of Ghulam Parwez / Tolu-e-Islam indiscriminately on this forum. There is clearly a difference of understanding that many forum readers retain to his work (which has already been discussed on this forum before) albeit there are other areas of agreement. He was undoubtedly a great thinker who deserves appreciation like other great thinkers past and present, but no ones work is beyond criticism as you will no doubt agree. It is also clear that many take a literal meaning of many passages where you clearly do not and this will only increasingly become a source of tension on this forum.

Also, please see my take on a somewhat related matter in Q&A format where I noted verse 7:54 of the Quran reading 'istawa ala 'larsh' (ascended the throne) in context to the establishment of God creating the universe and the laws and taking power over it, and its elucidation in verse 13:2 along with the term 'yudabbiru l-amra' (governing / disposing the affairs).

This gives us a strong indication of 'active involvement' but not from within the 'created' time and space scope as commonly understood. Please do try to understand this point with an open mind. The latter point is often missed by those who see God's intervention from a  'linear' human perspective. God's intervention cannot be understood from a human linear dimension. Truth seeker has already kindly shared my illustration which makes this point and an accompanying Q&A can also be read below.

Predestination, Afflictions and Trials
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=256.msg750#msg750

Regards,
Joseph.

[optimist]

Salamun alaikum,

I have noted brother Joseph Islam's comments with respect.  I have some questions (specific to the comments and articles only) which I will ask later.  In this post I will state some comments for br. Saba remarks.

What are you talking about br. Abdul Samad? You make a claim that the Quran says that Zakarya's wife had a disease. ASTAGHFURULLAH Where does the Quran say this? Where ??
Please don't attribute words to Allah which he never said!!!! Astagfurullah.
The Quran only says she was barren! (19.5)

Firstly, I kindly request you not to make too many exclamatory remarks; even I myself thought I made a big error.   You can simply ask me where Allah says so in Quran.  Please read verse 21:90; “We cured his wife's (Barrenness) for him”

Once again, please explain how at the point where someone wants to pull down a church, synagogue etc, How did Allah change the course of action? Your response " The fight between right and wrong is an ongoing process every point of time" is poor and a convenient way out

Very politely I tell you again, you cannot take this verse as an example of Allah's “intervention” in the affairs of the world, unless you can prove an “intervention” from Allah (linear or otherwise) against free-will of mankind without  any revelation and guidance, against cause an effect,  law of returns and law of requital.   Show me something miraculous happening that prevents pulling down mosque, churches and synagogue whenever anyone or any group of people intend to do so.  If nothing miraculous is happening there is no substance in your claim of “intervention”.   It is nothing but Allah’s law established in the universe where Allah’s Will encompasses everything, even falling a leaf from a tree, where everything  could be termed as an "intervention" from Allah since everything operates based on Allah's law establisehd.   Allah intervenes indirectly only through the system established and such intervention is termed as Allah's own act (for instance, the verse I quoted earlier where Allah says "when you killed the enemies it was not you who killed, but Allah, when you threw the arrows it was not you who threw, but Allah) 8:17-18

If He can change the course of an outcome, He has interfered. Like I said before, He didn't change His mind on the spot, but He knew something will take place and guided a course of action so that the matter could be stopped.

This is a vague statement.   Again, prove to me Allah goes against free-will of mankind or make any changes to cause and effect and law of returns when he “stops” pulling down mosque and churches.  Otherwise, you are agreeing with my point of discussion.

Similarly when Musa (pbh) asked for Aaron (pbh) to be sent with him, Allah answered his prayer (20:36). How do you explain that??? Please do not tell me that this is a riddle too!

This is what I was saying.   You are mixing up the issue of revelation and guidance from Allah with intervention.   How can the request of Moses to strengthen his mission with the help of his brother Aaron and subsequent approval from Allah becomes an “intervention” from Allah?   It would be an intervention if the help is given against free will of Aaron.  Based on your argument, each and every instruction from Allah in the Quran is an “intervention” by Allah. 

[Saba]

Aslamaolaikum brother Joseph

I too note your comments with respect.... I did not intend to cause any friction ...so i apologize for that if it came across like that on my part.

Re: brother Abdul's comment again - I do not agree with your understanding of 21:90. I feel you are looking at verses and interpreting them in a way to suit your understanding.

You mentioned 21:90 “We cured his wife's (Barrenness) for him”.  I have checked the word 'aslaha' and it has the meaning of to put a matter right, to set something aright for something or reform and would mean here to adjust something. It does not mean 'cure'. She had no disease. Her body was adjusted (from barrenness of old age) so that she could have a baby. She was not cured from a disease.

Please see the way the Quran uses expressions to remove an ailment or cures someone from something (21:84).

Zakaariya's wife did not have a disease. Her body was adjusted and this was intervention after the prayer was made.

Also please please stop calling me brother!!      I am a sister !!!     Saba

[optimist]

Salam,

Even you have said "to set something aright for something".  In verse 7:190 Allah used swaleha to mean a child which is perfect in every way.  In verse 24:32  Allah says: wus swaleheena min ibadikum wa ima-ikum; means slaves and slave girls who have the capacity to get married.  In chapter Yusuf, the brothers of Yusuf discussed among themselves that their father’s entire attention is towards Yusuf and his brother; if Yusuf is murdered or exiled then this imbalance can be removed: Wa takoonu min ba’dehi qauman swaleheen: 12:9.  Here swaleheen makes clear that it means for imbalance or inequities to be removed. Now think what does it mean wa aslahna lahu zaujahu (21:90).  It means Allah removed the fault from his wife which was a bar to her giving birth to a child....it is nothing but "cure", "to set something aright for something". 

I am not in any argument on this point further.

Kind regards

[optimist]

Salamun alaikum brother Joseph Islam,

In your reply to “Reader question”,  under the following link you mentioned above, you wrote under the title  UNDERSTANDING OUR TRIALS;  We will be led into situations and afflictions in two main ways. (1) Some that our own hands cause (Cause and effect) (2) Those that are specifically created to test us.

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=256.msg750#msg750

You have then provided verses from Quran for the above two categories.  I have no comment for the first category you have mentioned.   I request you to reconsider the verses you mentioned as “afflictions specifically created to test us”, whether there is possibility that these “created afflictions” are natural afflictions the people who strive in the path of Allah will have to face before they achieve their goal.  I provide below the verses you used to categorise "afflictions spcificaally created".  I provide also against each verses the exposition by Parwez for these verses.  I would like to know your comments for the exposition of Parwez.

003.186
"Ye shall certainly be tried and tested in your wealth and in yourselves; and ye shall certainly hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil, then that will be a determining factor in all affairs"

(Parwez) 3:186 O Jama’at-ul-Momineen, you will continue to have confrontations with your opponents resulting in the loss of your possessions and your lives (2/155). In addition you will also have to hear much from those who were granted revelation before your time and Mushrikeen which will be very painful to you. If you remain steadfast and adhere to Allah’s Laws it will reflect your high resolve.

008.028  "And know that your wealth and your children are but a trial; and that it is God with Whom lies your highest reward"

(Parwez) (8:27) Do not betray the Divine Order or the trusts reposed in you. You know what the result of such betrayal would be. (4/58). 
(8:28) Such betrayal is motivated by love of wealth and children but remember that in such a case these things become a fitna whereas the recompense bestowed by Allah is generous and more valuable (9/23-24, 25/74, 64/14-15).

002.155
"And surely We will test you with something of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere"

(Parwez) 2:155-156   This struggle will provide you with many opportunities to test your own mettle. You may encounter wars and massacres and also be confronted with scarcity of food and loss of life and property or with devastation of fields and orchards. Such ordeals may take place but ultimately those who remain steadfast and do not waver in their commitment to establish Allah’s System, will be successful. They meet every challenge saying: “We have dedicated ourselves to the establishment of the Divine System and come what may we will continue advancing towards that goal.”

002.214
'Or do you think that you shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? they encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried: "When will the help of God come?" Ah! Indeed, the help of God is (always) near!"

(Parwez) 2: 214   O Jama’at-ul-Momineen, the ideal social system which will be free of dissension will not be created without great hardship and difficulty. Those who established this system earlier, met with such formidable obstacles that they cried out: “When will our efforts bear fruit, O Allah?” (3/141, 9/16, 13/40, 29/2, 33/10). You will also have to confront similar obstructions, but be sure that your efforts will be rewarded as were theirs.

047.031
'And We shall try you until We make evident those who strive among you and persevere in patience; and We shall test your affairs"

(Parwez)  47:31.       If We were to adopt any ‘out of the way' means (there was no need of any clash or struggle.  But)  We do want this clash to take place so that the Mujahideen amongst you can stand out; and it would become evident to what extent they are steadfast.  In other words these are the ones who are ready to sacrifice everything for the sake of establishing this system; and face all challenges with fortitude and steadfastness? We want that everything about each of you should be revealed to the public (and the whole world should see the wonderful change this Eiman has brought within you  and how you have changed for the better).

Don't you think theses are natural afflictions the people who strive in the path of Allah will have to face before they achieve their goal?  I would like to know how do you view the exposition by Parwez.

Thanks & kind regards

Abdul Samad

[Saba]

Salam,

Even you have said "to set something aright for something".  In verse 7:190 Allah used swaleha to mean a child which is perfect in every way.  In verse 24:32  Allah says: wus swaleheena min ibadikum wa ima-ikum; means slaves and slave girls who have the capacity to get married.  In chapter Yusuf, the brothers of Yusuf discussed among themselves that their father’s entire attention is towards Yusuf and his brother; if Yusuf is murdered or exiled then this imbalance can be removed: Wa takoonu min ba’dehi qauman swaleheen: 12:9.  Here swaleheen makes clear that it means for imbalance or inequities to be removed. Now think what does it mean wa aslahna lahu zaujahu (21:90).  It means Allah removed the fault from his wife which was a bar to her giving birth to a child....it is nothing but "cure", "to set something aright for something". 

I am not in any argument on this point further.

Kind regards

Salam. Your argument is wrong. Plain and simply wrong,. You have not proved that she had a disease. There is no disease. Even in the examples you have quoted, the best meaning in context of 21:90 is she was put right so she could bear a child. But as you don't want to accept that, I find you are purposely twisting the meanings to get what you want to read in the verse.

Sad. But true. Sadly, end of argument for me too and you have shown me that your method of analysis is weak and your mind is made up. I mean this in a nice but honest way, but I find it pointless discussing certain matters with you. Thanks...Saba

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Abdul,

Salamun Alaikum.

Despite my clear sincere repeated requests on this forum and to you in an email (which was initially posted) for you not to consistently propound Parwez's exposition as a defence for your arguments or your questions, I sadly find you repeatedly doing the same.

Also brother Abdul, please may I kindly suggest that you refrain from propounding the views of Ghulam Parwez / Tolu-e-Islam indiscriminately on this forum. There is clearly a difference of understanding that many forum readers retain to his work (which has already been discussed on this forum before) albeit there are other areas of agreement. He was undoubtedly a great thinker who deserves appreciation like other great thinkers past and present, but no ones work is beyond criticism as you will no doubt agree. It is also clear that many take a literal meaning of many passages where you clearly do not and this will only increasingly become a source of tension on this forum.

Email

Whilst I respect your decision to align your understanding of the Quran to Ghulam Parwez's interpretations in many areas, I have already shared my position that I do not agree with his allegorical interpretations of so many Quranic passages which I feel have no Quranic warrant (for reasons already exhausted).

There is obviously a difference in the way Ghulam Parwez interprets the Quran rendering many passages allegorical and his method of word analysis regardless of context which I strongly disagree with. Any such discourses held with such are core contention would inevitably prove fruitless and will amount to nothing but flogging a dead horse.

Therefore, with this in mind, I will not be responding to your last post and if in future such a post reappears, it will be removed from this forum. I feel I have been very tolerant hitherto and have already exhausted from my perspective, much of the weaknesses in Parwez's methodology and humbly afforded you a lot of time in related discussions. 

This forum should not be used as an advertising platform to peddle another scholar's views indiscriminately and exclusively especially when academic differences have been made clear. You can bring your arguments with 'translations' but interpolations such as Parwez's work or any similar expositions used as a basis for the argument will be curtailed.

Regards,
Joseph.

[Saba]

Dear brother Abdul,

Salamun Alaikum.

Despite my clear sincere repeated requests on this forum and to you in an email (which was initially posted) for you not to consistently propound Parwez's exposition as a defence for your arguments or your questions, I sadly find you repeatedly doing the same.

Also brother Abdul, please may I kindly suggest that you refrain from propounding the views of Ghulam Parwez / Tolu-e-Islam indiscriminately on this forum. There is clearly a difference of understanding that many forum readers retain to his work (which has already been discussed on this forum before) albeit there are other areas of agreement. He was undoubtedly a great thinker who deserves appreciation like other great thinkers past and present, but no ones work is beyond criticism as you will no doubt agree. It is also clear that many take a literal meaning of many passages where you clearly do not and this will only increasingly become a source of tension on this forum.

Email

Whilst I respect your decision to align your understanding of the Quran to Ghulam Parwez's interpretations in many areas, I have already shared my position that I do not agree with his allegorical interpretations of so many Quranic passages which I feel have no Quranic warrant (for reasons already exhausted).

There is obviously a difference in the way Ghulam Parwez interprets the Quran rendering many passages allegorical and his method of word analysis regardless of context which I strongly disagree with. Any such discourses held with such are core contention would inevitably prove fruitless and will amount to nothing but flogging a dead horse.

Therefore, with this in mind, I will not be responding to your last post and if in future such a post reappears, it will be removed from this forum. I feel I have been very tolerant hitherto and have already exhausted from my perspective, much of the weaknesses in Parwez's methodology and humbly afforded you a lot of time in related discussions. 

This forum should not be used as an advertising platform to peddle another scholar's views indiscriminately and exclusively especially when academic differences have been made clear. You can bring your arguments with 'translations' but interpolations such as Parwez's work or any similar expositions used as a basis for the argument will be curtailed.

Regards,
Joseph.

Aslamaolaikum Br. Joseph,

I follow alot of other forums as well including the ourbeacon forum now and again. If brother Abdul Samad is the same brother that has written on the ourbeacon forum then his feelings towards Parwez are very personal which explains why he consistently pushes one view on this forum. I would also question objectivity.

Salamun Alaikum,

On a BLESSED DAY, I accidently came across the writings of Allama Parwez and it has now completely changed my life. He is now close to my life and I love this man After Allah and His Messengers......more than I love my family.

http://ourbeaconforum.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/page/1/md/read/id/314123119179704

If I am mistaken then I am sorry but if true, the quote says a lot ...... Saba

[optimist]

Salamun alaikum,

It is bit surprising for me.   Even before I read the exposition from Parwez,  I had seen even traditional scholars explaining this in this line of analysis.  It is not a new finding by Parwez.  I posted translation from Parwez just to differentiate the two understanding.  Please look at the following verse;

(Yousuf Ali Translation) “[Remember what you felt] when they came upon you from above you and from below you, and when [your] eyes became dim and [your] hearts came up to [your] throats, and [when] most conflicting thoughts about God passed through your minds.  [for] there and then were the believers tried, and shaken with a shock severe.” (33:10-11)

I can quote for you many such verses.  I still do not know why you are insisting to interpret those verses in a particular line only. 

Anyhow, kindly delete my previous post, this post and also your last post since I  (not very intentionally disregarding your warning)  brought up Parwez in the discussion.  Please.

Thanks & kind regards

Abdul Samad

[QM Moderators Team]

Dear Optimist.

As brother Joseph has mentioned, any future posts of this nature will be removed. Therefore the current thread will remain especially when other members have taken their time to contribute to the discussion and have responded to your post (Unless all parties are happy to have their posts removed by specific request).

Thanks for your consideration.

QM Moderators

[optimist]

If I am mistaken then I am sorry but if true, the quote says a lot ...... Saba

Please delete this post also.  I only want to convey a message (I do not want this post to remain forever in the forum)

Salam,

You are not mistaken.  It was myself who posted that comment.  I was born and brought up in a traditional family, in a traditional society.  Traditional learning and living in a traditional society had almost sealed my heart.  It was the books from Parwez that showed me real Islam. 

I am sure Parwez will be angry at me if he is alive today for concentrating on issues not related to the main teachings of the Quran.   These are not his major contribution and points of discussion.  Even he was humbly stating those who do not agree with him on this point just ignore this point since it does not have any major bearing in the main aspects of Islam.  I have to say sorry to Parwez also, and most importantly to Allah for getting involved in this discussion more than needed.  One of the reasons for getting more involved on this topic was, some of the topics here were related to this subject.  I will avoid posting any comment on this topic and also from promoting any special views of parvez in this forum again (never assume all whatever I have posed in this forum belong to parwez). 

Kind regards

Abdul Samad

[Joseph Islam]

It was the books from Parwez that showed me real Islam. 

Dear Brother Abdul,

Salamun Alaikum.

As a sincere brother, please allow me to with respect share some views, if I humbly may. It was not 'Parwez' or his books that showed you real Islam. Any truth that you may have received was only from God. We are merely guided past these works so that our precepts are challenged and layered wisdom learnt. These should be seen as a 'stepping stone', a 'watering place' to seek wisdom and to move on if and when the time is right. Sadly, not once in the post did I note you thank God for having guided you.

I recently made a post on my Facebook page which I would like to humbly and sincerely share with you in light of Saba's post.


LOVE OF SCHOLARS

OVERTLY appreciating past scholars is a slippery slope to idolising personalities. It can also render impotent one's ability to critically discern their works.

Scholarly opinions should remain what they are, 'learned opinions' of FALLIBLE humans. They should not necessarily be equated with truth. God is ultimate truth and we should always remain consciously 'receptive' of His guidance which can often lead us past these learned personalities of the past and present as a TEACHING EXERCISE to build on our growing knowledge base.

It is simply a case of 'learning'.

If we stop to admire the works of an individual for too long, there remains an inherent risk that a 'gradual process' of learning can turn into 'static submission'. This would be an evident loss for it is here that we subconsciously can sever the link of remaining recipient to God's guidance and tacitly become reliant on the works of humans.

"...I hope that my Lord will guide me ever closer (even) than this to the right road." (18:24)

You are a great asset to this forum and I look forward to your own thoughts on various matters.

With utmost respect,

Regards,
Joseph.

[optimist]

LOVE OF SCHOLARS

OVERTLY appreciating past scholars is a slippery slope to idolising personalities. It can also render impotent one's ability to critically discern their works.

Scholarly opinions should remain what they are, 'learned opinions' of FALLIBLE humans. They should not necessarily be equated with truth. God is ultimate truth and we should always remain consciously 'receptive' of His guidance which can often lead us past these learned personalities of the past and present as a TEACHING EXERCISE to build on our growing knowledge base.

It is simply a case of 'learning'.

If we stop to admire the works of an individual for too long, there remains an inherent risk that a 'gradual process' of learning can turn into 'static submission'. This would be an evident loss for it is here that we subconsciously can sever the link of remaining recipient to God's guidance and tacitly become reliant on the works of humans.

"...I hope that my Lord will guide me ever closer (even) than this to the right road." (18:24)

Salamun alaikum,
 
I complete agree with your view regading blindly following scholars and their opinion.  It used to do  so earlier when I was not very much concerned about religion.  I was taught to trust Bukhari, Muslim and all other past scholars and not to critically study their works.   If I had continued the habit, I would not have known the truth. 

While agreeing with your point, I hope you will positively appreciate the following points.

I believe, if we want to propogate the true message of the Quran among the public at a wider  level,  we need to have the basic need to rely on a great scholar who have done extensive research on various subjects based on Quran.    The reason is simple, the first question a traditional minded person would be asking (especially when we are not a scholar and do not have great talent) to show him any great scholar who hold this view contrary to the general traditional view.   The scholar's books and articles must cover all aspects of Quran, including a proper Quran translation,  instead of the available Quran translations, written to conform the traditional understandings.  It is through the medium of books and articles only we can promote the true message of the Quran.   Certain differences of opinoin of issues that are not related to the main teachings of the Quran should be ignored.

At individual level, the possibility to spread the Quranic message is limited without the support of a great scholar.  I believe Parwez's books are a blessing for people who who thread the path of Quran.  It is needed to be ensured that his books are properly safeguarded and promoted (who will promote these invaluable books otherwise?).   Insha Allah, I am in the process of translating two of his books in to my mother tongue with the help of an expert for publication and plan to undertake more later.   My sincere with now to create another Parwez somewhere in the world who can lead a Resurgent Islam.  It is the reason why I chose the name "Resurgent Islam" (www.resurgentislam.com) for my website, mainly containing the works of Parwez (some of his major works not yet uploaded).  You will find also a small contribution from myself, a work I edited, named;  "Hadiths: An Objective Analysis".   

I have a living example for me to get convinced that relying on a great scholar like Parwez is the way to attract people to the true message of Quran.  Recently a new colleague joined in the department where I work who was a completely a traditional Muslim, studied in a well known Arabic college run by a very traditional Sunni group in India.  He is highly knowledgeable in Arabic literature (his job is related to Arabic/ English translation activity).  Slowly I started to have discussion with him at every oppurtunity about different Quranic verses.  I introduced to him Lughat-ul-Quran by Parwez and, alhamdulillah, it is his favourite reference book now.  Due to this book he has now started to appreciate the need to to follow Quran alone.   I have a few people now already with me and I could not have made them attracted to the Quranic message without the works from Parwez. 

By they way, you said "Sadly, not once in the post did I note you thank God for having guided you"!.  This statement brought tears in my eyes.  Only Allah knows how much I think of Him every day. 

Alhamdulillah always

Kind regards

Abdul Samad

[Joseph Islam]

By they way, you said "Sadly, not once in the post did I note you thank God for having guided you"!.  This statement brought tears in my eyes.  Only Allah knows how much I think of Him every day. 

Dear Brother,

Salamun Alaikum.

Please always take my posts with the sincerity that they are imparted with.

When dealing within a public space, people only know of you from what you write. They often do not know the personality behind the screen or what is in another's heart. Our responsibility is to best translate our thoughts into text when presenting it to another human being.

A small statement like 'Alhumdolillah' (as you used in your last post) or a similar sentiment of the like does not go amiss. Especially when one spends many paragraphs praising a human being.

It is my humble opinion, that we should take every opportunity to extol our Lord, our merciful God, who is worthy of being worshipped and appreciated.

Finally dear brother, just bethink, is it quite possible that someone shed a tear when they read your posts and found that you not once thanked the Creator, the Almighty? Is it possible?  Let us not overtly appreciate created things but let us adore the Creator who created them. (41:37)

It is my humble opinion and from my discussions with you to date on his works, that there is a lot you have to learn about Parwez's works and I hope that one day when you are free from the mist of overt appreciation that you will be able to discern his works more objectively.

That would be a true blessing for people.

Regards,
Joseph.