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Offline Orange

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Never stand in it
« on: September 29, 2012, 05:54:46 PM »
Dear brother Joseph, Peace be on you.

This is with reference to your article:

http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/congregational%20prayer%20FM3.htm

We note that God has forbidden to stand in mosque which causes disunion. And as a matter of fact today almost all do (mainly those are in my city/country).

9:107-8
"And those who built a Mosque to cause harm and for unbelief and to cause disunion among the believers and an ambush to him who made war against God and His Messenger before; and they will certainly swear: We did not desire anything but good; and God bears witness that they are most surely liars. Never stand in it; certainly a Mosque founded on piety from the very first day is more deserving that you should stand in it; in it are men who love that they should be purified; and God loves those who purify themselves"

So in your view how can we pursue congregation in mosque as we hear in every Friday sermon hatred about People of the book and elected leaders and other traditional faiths established through secondary sources?

Regards

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Never stand in it
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2012, 07:46:51 PM »
Dear Orange,

Peace to you.

An appreciation of the context of the narrative you share is extremely important, along with its premise of the dubious intent which also involved those that warred with God and the messenger.

Therefore, this verse pertains to the prophetic ministry, the prophet himself, his contemporaries and a response to his mission. The prophet was alive and present as a representative of God to make matters clear to them, despite which some decided to oppose him.

Today, there is no such prophet present. Therefore, no one is in the position to make a conclusive judgment about another's place of worship or their intention.

In my personal opinion, this verse is certainly not intended to provide a modus operandi to make personal assessments and judgments about present day mosques.  Also, it is to be appreciated that in the absence of a God appointed prophet, many adherents of the mosques, despite their differences believe they are actually following the prophet.

Therefore, judgment only rests with God.

I think it far better if we take generic wisdom from verses such as 22:40 and 72.18, where we recognise that all places of worship belong to God along with appropriate devotion. We should disincline in making personal judgments about another's wider theological beliefs without knowing the clarity of the message that has reached them.

We would also do better in my humble opinion, by educating others if we feel we are in a position to do so. Many simply go to the mosque to offer their devotions to God and not to accept every sound byte that radiates from the microphones of the clergy.

I am in no doubt given my own personal experiences and the vitriolic and acerbic tones I have noted between Quranists that if there were 'Quran-only' mosques, there would still be divisions where one would accuse another of mischief.

However, if we find that such establishments are being used to incite hatred with a view to cause societal mischief, then this is indeed something we should curtail by action such as informing the appropriate authorities if possible. In such a situation, the secondary issue of congregation is least important as one would be better placed to avoid them.

I hope that helps, God willing.
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Wakas

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Re: Never stand in it
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2012, 02:23:35 AM »
Salaam Orange,

In addition to the above reply, you may find this of help:

Quote
9:107 And those who take* (to themselves) a maSJD (for) harming and concealment/rejection and division between the believers and preparing/observing** for whoever battled/warred God and His messenger from before. And they will swear "not we wish except the good", and God bears witness that indeed they are liars.
9:108 Do not observe/maintain/stand in it ever. A maSJD founded on God-consciousness from the first day/period is more worthy/truer that you maintain/stand/observe in it; in it (are) men who love to purify themselves. And God loves those who purify.
9:109 Is one who founded his building/structure (bunyan) on protection/forethought/conciousness from/of God and His approval better, or one who founded his building on the edge of a cliff about to crumble, so it crumbled with him into the fire of Hell? And God does not guide the wrongdoing people.
9:110 Their building/structure (bunyan) which they built will not cease to be a doubt in their hearts except/until that cut to pieces their hearts. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
*verb form 8, reflexive.
** is a verbal noun, indicating the act of doing as well as the noun itself, thus the meaning can also include "as a preparation/observation"

The verse discusses those concealing themselves under the guise of being good-doers so they can harm/divide believers, spy and help enemies etc. Some related evidence of this understanding, see 58:16, 63:2, 16:92, 16:94.
    The word "bunyan" does not necessarily mean a physical building here, see 16:26 in which it is commonly taken as a metaphor. It seems to be about the works of an individual, as not everyone can build a mosque. No physical structure will crumble with the disbeliever in the fire of Hell but it is the structure of polytheism/rejection/wrongdoing/etc that will ultimately crumble with him in the fire of Hell. In other words, this usage could be a metaphor, similar to 16:26.
    M. Asad notes: "In verses 109-110, the reference to "the building which they have built" is, obviously, widened beyond the preceding allusion to houses of worship, and allegorically circumscribes here all the "works" and the behaviour of men."
    There is possibly an issue if we take 9:108 to mean "do not stand in it (i.e. Mosque) ever", because how are believers meant to differentiate Mosques and actually do this, if in 9:107 it implies believers could be duped by such people? Traditionalists explain the context as referring to a rival Mosque being built. Does this mean such a Mosque could NEVER be stood in by a believer? The point being that by using "ever" seems very absolute. If it is not delimited in some way, it could seem impractical/unusual. We could reason that once such a Mosque was not used for this, e.g. run by believers, then believers could stand/observe in it. For example, if "maSJD" meant "time of SJD" then by definition, it would be delimited.
    It may be interesting to note that in 18:21 a maSJD seems sufficiently distinct from a bunyan, yet in 9:107-110 IF they (maSJD and bunyan) are taken as the same thing/reference, as is traditionally understood, they seem interchangeable here. Thus, one might expect one side in 18:21 to clarify what kind of building is being proposed by the other side, as they may well have meant a mosque, but this is not addressed.

From: http://www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html

Offline Saba

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Re: Never stand in it
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2012, 04:01:09 AM »
Salam Wakas,

Having looked at your link ....can I simply ask then, in your understanding what is the meaning of 'Masjid'?  Saba

Offline Wakas

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Re: Never stand in it
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2012, 05:11:28 AM »
w/salaam,

At the present time, based on my analysis, the evidence is significantly weighted in favour of "time of SJD". For sujud you can choose any from: honour/submission/paying respect, as discussed in part 1 here:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

The word form "masjid" (e.g. same as "maghrib", "mashriq" etc) is known for having a place/time connotation, and in case you think "time of SJD" is unheard of etc, it is a fact that this is openly mentioned even in traditional translations, e.g. Asad, Yusuf Ali, Pickthal. Of course, it is used sparingly in their works.

Part 3 will discuss this in more detail.

Offline Saba

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Re: Never stand in it
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2012, 05:48:21 AM »
Sorry Wakas, I am totally confused. What do you mean that for 'sujud' I can choose from "honour/submission/paying respect"?

Why can't sujud simply not mean prostration when the Quran is talking about humans when referring to God? What is wrong with this traditional interpretation? I am not sure I understand why I would need to change this or pick and choose another?

Quote
The word form "masjid" (e.g. same as "maghrib", "mashriq" etc) is known for having a place/time connotation, and in case you think "time of SJD" is unheard of etc, it is a fact that this is openly mentioned even in traditional translations, e.g. Asad, Yusuf Ali, Pickthal. Of course, it is used sparingly in their works.

Sorry I don't understand this. What do you mean 'masjid' same as maghrib / mashriq etc? Please clarify. Saba

Offline Wakas

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Re: Never stand in it
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2012, 06:02:56 AM »
Please read the articles I have linked for you previously:

Part 1
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

Part 2
http://www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html


Once you have studied the above, let me know.

Offline Saba

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Re: Never stand in it
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2012, 06:04:16 AM »
Please Wakas, I asked a simple question. Can you provide me a simple response here please.

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Never stand in it
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2012, 06:14:58 AM »
Salaam Wakas,

Please can you ensure that your responses are given within the posts and not provided by external links. I note that the links you provide are extremely long.

It would be better to respond directly here with your thoughts in a succinct manner so that the flow of the discussion can be maintained.

Thanks

Offline Orange

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Re: Never stand in it
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2012, 06:04:13 AM »
Thank you dear Joseph.

Dear Waqas, I am just thinking whether you have even read (Just not reading but trying to understand) what brother Joseph has posted.

esp.

I think it far better if we take generic wisdom from verses such as 22:40 and 72.18, where we recognise that all places of worship belong to God along with appropriate devotion. We should disincline in making personal judgments about another's wider theological beliefs without knowing the clarity of the message that has reached them.

I would ask again with Truth seeker what is that you are suggesting in your perspective simply.

Peace