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Offline Orange

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Rijalan and Nisa'a
« on: October 06, 2012, 10:24:08 PM »
Peace be on you dear brother Joseph,

If the questions seem that they should not be pursued, so you may simply ignore the questions with respect to 3:7.

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4:1
"O mankind! Fear your Lord, Who created you from a single soul and created from out of it its mate and spread from these two, many men and women; and fear God, by Whom you demand one of another (your rights), and (to) the ties of relationship; surely God ever watches over you

After reading your following articles:

a- THEORY OF EVOLUTION AND THE QURAN - http://quransmessage.com/articles/evolution%20FM3.htm

b- ADAM (pbuh) AND JANNAH - AN EARTHLY ABODE OR PARADISE? - http://quransmessage.com/articles/adam%20and%20jannah%20FM3.htm

c- WAS ADAM'S (pbuh) SPOUSE CREATED FROM HIS RIB? - http://quransmessage.com/articles/eve%20and%20the%20rib%20of%20adam%20FM3.htm

d-JINN
http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/jinn%20FM3.htm



Questions:

1) Want to have your view regarding many men (Rijalan)  and women Nisa'a as mentioned in the 4:1?

2) Want to know whether you have shared your views on stages of Men life and death in any article if yes please share. and please confirm whether the following paragraph do OR does not represent what is mentioned in Quran

   
Quote
God created us (as in all of us) who will come till Day of Judgement after Adam and his wife and make a witness over ourselves (7:172) that HE is our Lord. Quran contains signs of God for people to understand and apply in their lives and the spirit are HIS commandments that we were made of and then He has given us death and from time to time and to HIS knowledge he descends souls to earth for test and give them life and death and then again HE will raise us on the Day of Judgement i.e. Two lives and two deaths.


3) Then with respect to Ayat 2:30 - 39, Do we find answers to the following from other parts of Quran? or is something more symbolic or unclear that we should not look out for (3:7)?

(i) Were there ever Jinn or any other beings such as Men itself existing on Earth who use to disorder and shed blood as witnessed by angels to question (2:30)?

(ii) How was Iblis ranked among angels to even stand with them? As Iblis was standing throughout the discussion as indicated in 2:33 "...and know what you hide?" and as Iblees was a Jinn (who was said to be pious in secondary sources and there was a battle between angles and jinns on this planet prior to human creation and Iblees was chosen for being more pious) - yet he disobeyed GOD when it was asked to bow down with angels 2:34

(iii) Was there a tree that has been where asked "...but approach not this tree or you will become transgressors.(2:35) or it is something symbolic for Rijalan and Nisa'a (4:1) OR only Adam and his spouse not to go near something like not to disobey commandments of God?

(iv) Is Shaitan and action of evil (2:36) or an entity like Iblis?

(v) Was it THIS QURAN (that we have today) Words of inspiration or commands to Adam in 2:38?

(vi) Is Guidance from God mentioned in 2:38 are the signs of God (Ayat of Quran) as mentioned in 2:39?


Regards
   

Offline Orange

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Re: Rijalan and Nisa'a
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2012, 12:46:37 AM »
In any case let me know if these questions should not be pursued.

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Rijalan and Nisa'a
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2012, 06:37:20 AM »
Salaam Orange,

Inshallah Joseph will respond soon to your questions. He is inundated not only with requests outside this forum, but also is extremely busy with his commitments. Hopefully you should get some answers soon.

Thanks.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Rijalan and Nisa'a
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2012, 07:17:35 AM »
Dear Orange,

Peace to you.

(1) Please can you kindly elaborate on your question as I find the remit of the verse quite self-explanatory.

(2) Quite a major part of my humble effort, copious notes and other illustrations over many years still remain in unpublished form. There is quite a detailed illustration I have endeavoured to complete which maps out the stages of human life and death from a Quranic perspective, but has not yet been completed into published form. I think many readers would find it quite interesting. God willing, I will one day have it committed into published format.

However, with regards the paragraph you have shared, I am not entirely sure I agree with some of the sentiments contained therein, nor do I profess to fully understand them. Verse 7:172 seems to be presented as a primordial testimony by the Quran which will be referred to on the Day of Judgment. The term 'spirit' (I'm assuming as a translation of 'ruh') seems to have been used loosely (and somewhat restrictively) by the author and even after rereading, I am not sure I clearly understand the overall sentiment.

(3) (i) Please see my excerpt below taken from the following Q&A entitled "Was Iblis the First Disbeliever?" which God willing, should address your question.

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=310.msg964#msg964

Quote
A related point is to be noted in another verse. The 'Malaika' (angels) enquired as to why God was to create a vicegerent (Khalifa) on the Earth that would create mischief and cause much bloodshed (2:30). The question arises how did they know that a creation such as man when given volition would create such mischief? By virtue of this question asked by the 'malaika', there seems to be a strong suggestion that they had prior knowledge by experience. This seems to indicate that this experience would most likely have been gained from other parts of the Universe where similar volition was granted to other of God's creatures. In this way, the malaika were simply applying prior observational experience to another situation. However, despite this suggestion remaining hypothetical, the nature of the question asked by the 'malaika' remains fact.


(ii) I respectfully find your question is conflated with concepts from Islamic secondary sources.

Please see the following post where I have discussed the relationship of Iblis with the prostration command given to the angels and the general nature of Iblis.

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=489.0

(iii) There is every possibility that there existed an actual tree [1]. However, the lesson to be learnt is of a metaphorical import. Your latter reasoning in my humble perspective, points to a more correct understanding.

(iv) 'Shayateen' (plural) is an address used by the Quran to depict a category of humans and jinn (6:112; 2:14) implying those who are evil, corrupt, insolent, proud and rebellious. 'Shaytan' with the prefix article 'al' signifies the devil or Iblis (Satan) and carries the nuance of evil, pride, insolence as mentioned.

(v) I respectfully do not find any evidence for such an assertion.

(vi) The guidance mentioned in 2:38 is encompassing which includes any manner of guidance that God has sent to his servants during the course of time. The Quran would be part of that overall guidance.

I hope that helps, God willing.

Joseph.


REFERENCES

[1] ADAM (pbuh) AND JANNAH - AN EARTHLY ABODE OR PARADISE?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/adam%20and%20jannah%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline HOPE

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Re: Rijalan and Nisa'a
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2012, 09:58:00 AM »
Salaam Orange,


Biologically both sexes have originated from "one living entity".  Most of the classical commentators understood nafs as human being and assume that it refers here to Adam.  Modern science complicates things a little bit.  All humans have mitochondrial DNA which is passed down from mother to offspring and never from father to child.  Which came first?  Woman or man? Like the chicken/egg conundrum.



"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Orange

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Re: Rijalan and Nisa'a
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2012, 08:48:35 PM »
Thank you brother Joseph for your reply.  :)

Offline Orange

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Re: Rijalan and Nisa'a
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2012, 09:13:09 PM »
Dear brother Joseph, I have also received a response from another forum, please share your concerns with respect to the understanding of the author.


HOW ADAM CAME / or COMES OUT OF PARADISE

7/22-23 Sura Al Aaraaf:- Exposition;-

So the Shaitan hanged down(1) 

the (the Ruler and the people)both by deceiving (From the heights of the development to the deep depth of individuality). When both tasted(2)

the forbidden tree ( of the individual pride and denial ) the wickedness/bad deeds of the both(ruler and the people) became visible to each other.(3)

Upon this both tried to cover themselves with the leaves/ Laws / to implement the rules of Paradise( of collective/joint society.)(4).

The society again became Paradise.) Their Lord/RABB said( through the messenger )(5).

”Had I not forbidden you(from this SHAJAR Mamnooa (6)

(of pride and denial) and had I not warned you that Shaitan is you visible enemy.(7)

Some words for clarification:
( The Dual word used in the above verse is for the Ruler and the people0

1-FA DALLAH HUMA :- DALLA means To hang down. Means the Shatan had hanged down has been used as an example/MAJAAZ. The crux of the matter is that the Shaitan dropped down both (ruler and the people) from the heights of the Joint system to depth of individuality. HUMA has been used for dual (Ruler and the people)

2- ZAAQA wordily meaning “ when both tasted . This is an adverb which is used as a result of an action in which the doer has to be demoralized/ashamed because of that bad /wrong action.. (ZAAQA is dual in Arabic grammar)
Therefore in the Individual System the Lawlessness/Law breaking is over all.. President /ruler or the people of the internal groups everybody loose their joint trust . The government impose heavy taxes upon the people but the people hesitate to pay that and finds various ways and means not to pay that. Even the people have no trust upon the people Because of the individual system everybody use all evil tactics of lie ,fraud, bribery , mixing, hoarding and black marketing.

3- BADAT LAHOMA SAUAATO HOMA The wonderful concept created by Hadiths is that Adam and Eva became naked ,their shameful body parts became visible.(Allah forbid) soon after they had eaten the fruits of the forbidden tree. Books of Rawayaat /Hadits started this against the verses of 11/61, 20/55, 53/32,71/17-18 . Hadiths have mentioned that Allah had made idol of Adam and pulled his wife out of his ribs and ordered them to live in the Paradise.. Eat where you want but do not come near this tree. Which was that tree?. Some say it was Wheat ,Grape or Garlic tree.. Both husband and wife could not stopped themselves and tasted that tree. What happened? Both husband and wife became naked and their dress stripped off.(Allah forbid)
Discussion SHAJARA means not only tree but also means fight/quarrel. TILKOMA SHAJARA TE does not mean tree of any kind but the individual system which is the main cause of the joint fight is called ASHAJARA and has been forbidden to come near. It has been defined by AABAA WA STAKBARA means by declining the Divine rules and pride the quarrels and friction are created… In the early era of the mankind the society based on joint society but the SHAITAN,IBLEES in existence when the individual system came into being as some people derailed /misled others. The evil and hidden actions/designs of the Ruler and people and the VIPs. became open /visible . With these words of the Quran it has been explained that in individual system the fraud, bribery, mixing in food,, black marketing become common disease is but natural. But in joint system of the society all these do not happen but are finished with the length of time.

. With the help of previous messengers Allah had ordered for the Joint Central System with which such Paradise society was established in which according to FA KULAA MIN HAISO SHEETOMA every Higher and lower person could get their livings subject to their needs.. But the people who were the slaves of NAFSE AMMARA/Shiyateen changed the joint / collective balanced system into individual devil system.. The bad qualities of the ruler and the people which were vanished in Joint system became visible .
(WARAQ AL JANNAT:- Here WARQ mean the Laws and Jannat means Paradise ,the society where the necessity of life are in abundant /rich.

(4)WA TAFIQA YAKHSIFAAN E ALAIHIMA MIN WARAQAL JANNAT:-
Rawaait /Hadith says:

After eating the wheat ,grapes or garlic in the Paradise Adam and Eva become naked. And the shameful parts of the both became visible to each other.( May Allah forgive) and they both started to cover their shameful body parts with the leaves of the Jannat tree. . Sorry on these Hadith who even did not care for the Blasphemy of the 1st messenger . It is to mention here that this event is not about the Story of Adam and Eva but it is about the early societies. The mankind which was created out of the earth mentioned in 11/61,20/55,53/32,71/17-18.
Allah had ordered through His first messengers for a Joint Central System. With which every body whether higher or lower got the necessities of life in a balanced way. But the slave people of NAFS E AMMARA/SHAITAAN changed the balance joint system into the individual Devil System. With which the bad qualities of the ruler and the people became visible. These bad deeds/actions were vanished in the balance Joint system. With these words( . WA TAFIQA YAKHSIFAAN E ALAIHIMA MIN WARAQAL JANNAT) they started implementing the Paradise Laws upon themselves
WARAQ AL JANNAT :- WARAQ mean Law and Jannat mean the society in which everybody gets his living according to his/her needs in rich. In 18/19. Sura Kahaf. WARAQ means the legal coin which is running in a government legally.. Coin/currency is also called WARAQ because it has Certificate of Law.

5- NADAAHO MA RUBBUHOMAA. :-

Media of the messengers is not mentioned here . As Allah does not address directly to any ruler and people but only with the nominated people/Nabi. In the early stage of the mankind Allah had conveyed his message on whole of the globe where ever the mankind existed/ was born , ordered them for the Joint system by nominating the messengers.. But the mankind changed the joint system into the Individual system with which the people and the ruler became naked. Allah had asked them through his messengers ‘ Had He(Allah) not forbidden them from the tree of individual interest.?

6- SHAJR E MAMNOOA( Forbidden Tree):- It has been explained before in detail that this tree was not of Wheat, grape or Garlic but is the Individual system in which the necessity of the life are not the responsibility of the Government/state. Due to which the fight of individual interests (trees) are created and everybody become the enemy of each other. 2/36, 7/24 is the scene after this.

7- INNA SHAITANA LAKUM ADOWWUN MUBEEN :-- Allah had declared anybody who prefers towards the establishment of the Individual System and stops the joint system “He is Shaitan” and He is the open enemy of the mankind.. He wants to push the mankind towards the hell of unbalanced economy ,fight among people and enmity. Shaitan is a person who becomes slave of NAFSE AMMARA and has become self IBLEES. The sign of open enemy is who supports or prefers for the imbalanced society.

This is the event of the early stage of the mankind when the joint system was changed into the individual system or into Kingdom. After which the worst results became visible. As the good memories of the Joint system were before the eyes and the pleasant taste of the SHAJRE TAYYABA were also on the tongue of the people . Therefore both the ruler and the people had u-turn towards the joint system. Accepted their fault or error and prayed Allah for forgiveness.

In this Modern time mankind is again under the shackle of Kingdom, Capitalism, Communism ,Socialism and crying for the freedom. It is only the Joint Quranic Economic System(Nizaam e Rabobiyyat) which can save them from this deep mud.

Thanks for your reading !

Offline Orange

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Re: Rijalan and Nisa'a
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2012, 09:24:21 PM »
"Thanks for you reading !" is part of the response from author only.

Regards

Offline HOPE

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Re: Rijalan and Nisa'a
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2012, 12:49:06 AM »
Salaam all,

We have two threads running here.  Creation of mankind and Adam in the garden.

As far as I can tell, Quran does not reveal when or how Adam was born or even if he and his partner were ever the first couple.  All we know he was made from the dust just like the homo sapiens, meaning wise man. Dust representing the organic and inorganic materials of the physical body.  Then we get 3 essential human faculties, like hearing, sight and heart . 32:9.  Into this mixture, human soul and divine Spirit are added;  something I cannot give you a timetable.  Death is the condition of the dust part; life, soul, spirit leave.  Souls are recalled by God  39:42  It has the taste of death before returning to God 21:35.  Taste of death could be related to the sleeping when souls are separated from the body as suggested in 39:42 during virtual reality dreams. 

God knows best
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Saba

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Re: Rijalan and Nisa'a
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2012, 11:13:13 PM »
All we know he was made from the dust just like the homo sapiens, meaning wise man.

Salaam Hope, can you please clarify / provide evidence for the above. How are connecting dust with the meaning of wise man?  :-\ Saba

Offline HOPE

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Re: Rijalan and Nisa'a
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2012, 12:49:51 AM »
Dear sister Saba,

Quote
Salaam Hope, can you please clarify / provide evidence for the above. How are connecting dust with the meaning of wise man?

This is my understanding of the human race as a synthesis of revelation and science.  Evolution theory shows that the human body has evolved from primates millions years ago, based on archaeological remains.  It was classified as "homo erectus" when they could walk on two feet; "homo neanderthalensis" during stone age;  The last stage is called 'homo sapiens' which means "wise man".  I understand Adam as the  "progenitor" of the homo sapiens who possess cognitive capacities.  It is a new creation based on evolved human body.  This understanding also explains the angels reservation concerning the human race up to that point creating corruption and  bloodshed.

http://www.becominghuman.org/node/human-lineage-through-time
 
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Orange

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Re: Rijalan and Nisa'a
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2012, 01:46:09 AM »