Who will Believe is Jesus (PBUH) before HIS Death?

[DARahman]

Assalaamu Alaikum Brother Joseph,

I have a question regarding the return of Jesus (PBUH)

I have noted in your papers that you do not believe the qur’an supports the position for the return of Jesus (PBUH).

In your argument, I did not see where you addressed the following ayah:

4:159. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [i.e., Jesus] before his death.  And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

If you did and I missed it please point me in that direction.

What is your understanding of this ayah?  WHO will believe in Jesus (PBUH) before HIS death?

And what does “Believe in him” mean within the context of this ayah?

Salaam

[HOPE]

Salaam,

4:159. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [i.e., Jesus] before his death.  And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

Jews did not believe him as the messenger of God and believed that they proved he was accursed per Deut. 21:23

His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but you shall in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that your land be not defiled, which the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance.

Christians believed they got atonement from sins because he died on the cross.

Jew or Christian  who comes to realize his false beliefs before his death maybe too late.

4:18  Forgiveness is not for those who continue to do evil deeds until, when death comes upon one of them, he says: Now I repent! nor from those who die as deniers of the truth. We have prepared a painful punishment for them.

[DARahman]

Thanks for that ayah reference. 

The ayah I referenced:

4:159. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [i.e., Jesus] before his death.  And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

Indicates that the Jews and Christians will believe in Jesus (PBUH) [properly] before either:

1.  The Jew of Christian dies or;
2.  Jesus (PBUH) dies.

Given that Jews and Christians die every day believing incorrectly in Jesus per the Qur'an, for this ayah to be true it could be understood that Jesus (PBUH) has not have died yet.

Thoughts?

[DARahman]

Assalaamu Alaikum Brother Joseph,

I have a question regarding the return of Jesus (PBUH)

I have noted in your papers that you do not believe the qur’an supports the position for the return of Jesus (PBUH).

In your argument, I did not see where you addressed the following ayah:

4:159. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [i.e., Jesus] before his death.  And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

If you did and I missed it please point me in that direction.

What is your understanding of this ayah?  WHO will believe in Jesus (PBUH) before HIS death?

And what does “Believe in him” mean within the context of this ayah?

Salaam

[HOPE]

Salaam,

Indicates that the Jews and Christians will believe in Jesus (PBUH) [properly] before either:

1.  The Jew of Christian dies or;
2.  Jesus (PBUH) dies.

Given that Jews and Christians die every day believing incorrectly in Jesus per the Qur'an, for this ayah to be true it could be understood that Jesus (PBUH) has not have died yet.

Thoughts?

Before the Jew or Christian dies.  Jesus will be a witness against them.

5:116  When God says, Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to people, Take me and my mother as two deities besides God? He will answer, Glory be to You! How could I ever say that to which I have no right? If I had ever said so, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my mind, while I do not know anything that is within Yours. You alone are the knower of unseen things

5:117  I told them only what You commanded me to, Worship God, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness to what they did as long as I remained among them, and when You did cause me to die, You were the watcher over them. You are the witness of all things,


3:50  I have come to confirm the truth of the Torah which preceded me, and to make some things lawful to you which used to be forbidden. I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. Be mindful of God, obey me:

These are my thoughts.  Remember not all Christians are Trinitarian and many have already embraced the truth.  I am sure brother Joseph will answer you as soon as he can

Peace

[DARahman]

Thank you Hope.

The ayah you quoted where Jesus (PBUH) witnesses against the Christians and Jews occur at during the period leading up to or at the Day of Judgement.

5:116. And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?' " He will say, "Exalted are You! It  was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

5:117. I said not to them except what You commanded me – to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness
over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over
all things, Witness.


Brother Joseph mentions this in his paper on the return of Jesus (PBUH)

Salaam

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam DARahman

Please see Joseph's response to a similar question where he gives his view regarding verse 4:159.

I hope that helps. Thanks


http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=523.msg1732#msg1732

Salamun Alaika Orange,

Thanks for your question and comments.

In evidence 4 of my article you have cited, you will have noted that the preceding verses 4:157-158 are discussed. The context of the discourse is a reference to a period of time during Prophet Jesus's ministry. Verse 4:159 is a continuation of verse 4:158 which is more than alluded to by the conjunction 'wa' (and). There is no break in the discourse or theme. (Not discussed in the article)

004:159
"AND (wa) there is not from the People of the Book ..."

From verse 4:159 it is clear that the reference is still to those who had been touched by Prophet Jesus's ministry and were given clear evidence of truth yet still denied him (4:157). They were not going to believe in him and what his ministry represented before his death. It is in this context that Prophet Jesus is also presented as a witness against them on the Day of Judgment 'yakuna alayhim shaidan'.

There would be no point of Prophet Jesus being presented as a witness against those who believed in the veracity of Prophet Jesus’s ministry. Therefore, the point of witness is against those who did not believe in the truth that was revealed to them and not those who did establish belief.

It is also important to remember in the context of the discourse that the People of the Book that are referred to are the Jews which is clear from verse 4:153 and not the Christians. These verses have nothing to do with the Christians (4:153ff).

The fact that Prophet Jesus will only be a witness against his people who witnessed his ministry is confirmed by another verse as well.

005:117
“…That worship God, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness over them as long as I was among them, but when you caused me to die (Arabic: Tawafaytani), you were the watcher over them, and you are witness of all things.”

The traditional position that makes use of verse 4:159 out of context to support Prophet Jesus’s second coming, arguably needs to provide unequivocal evidence from the Quran that:

• Verse 4:159 is a break in discourse and refers to another period of time.
• The audience of 4:159 has changed
• The audience includes Christians
• That this verse provides unequivocal support for Prophet Jesus's second coming.

I hope that helps, God willing.
Joseph.

[DARahman]

Thank you for reposting the information from the related dialogue.

I am still focused on the end game to Prophet Jesus (PBUH) mission.

The end game is this:

4:159. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [i.e., Jesus] before his death.   And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

The way I read this, every single person among the People of the Book (I acknowledge your position that the People of the Book referred to here are the Jews that Jesus (PBUH) called to Al-Islam) will believe in Jesus (PBUH), presumably consistent with the Qur’an,  before Jesus (PBUH) dies.

My question, according to your understanding, when does that happen? When, before Jesus (PBUH) dies, as Allah has revealed, do all the People of the Book believe in Jesus (PBUH)?

Salaam

[Joseph Islam]

Peace DARahman.

As you will know, verse 4:159 is being narrated to an audience at the time of Prophet Muhammad who:

• Did not witness Prophet Jesus's ministry
• Had no explicit confirmation of Prophet Jesus's second coming from the Quran

A dialogue is being captured by the Quran of a people of a particular time of antiquity and 'during' Prophet Jesus's ministry who rebelled. This in my view is clear from the context before verse 4:159 and after it. Verse 4:159 refers to those of the People of the Book 'at the time of Prophet Jesus's ministry' (contemporaneous to him) who would have grasped the truth about the ministry of Prophet Jesus after the completion of his mission and before their demise. Prophet Jesus can only be a witness against his own people and indeed them. (4:41).

Therefore in my humble opinion, this verse is not referring to the People of the Book contemporaneous to Prophet Muhammad's ministry nor is it a reference to a future generation of people which would be meaningless to the primary audience of the Quran. This verse is referring to a people of Prophet Jesus's time. The part which is in a future context is the witness of Jesus against his people which will be actioned on the Day of Judgment.

I hope that clarifies from my humble perspective, God willing.

Regards,
Joseph.

[DARahman]

Peace Brother Joseph,

You wrote:

"This verse is referring to a people of Prophet Jesus's time."

Are you saying that all of the People of the Scirpture during Jesus' (PBuH) time believed in Jesus (PBUH) before each and everyone one of those people died?

4:159. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [i.e., Jesus] before his death.   And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

Peace.

[DARahman]

Peace Brother Joseph,

Correction.  I referred incorrectly to the death of the People of the Book.  I should have referred to the Death of Jesus (PBUH). Here is a corrected post:

Peace Brother Joseph,

You wrote:

"This verse is referring to a people of Prophet Jesus's time."

Are you saying that all of the People of the Scirpture during Jesus' (PBuH) time believed in Jesus (PBUH) before  Jesus (PBUH) died?

4:159. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [i.e., Jesus] before his death.   And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

Peace.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear DARahman,

Peace to you.

Are you saying that all of the People of the Scirpture during Jesus' (PBuH) time believed in Jesus (PBUH) before  Jesus (PBUH) died?

No, please allow me to clarify.

I am respectfully asserting with the evidence that I have presented that all those that witnessed Prophet Jesus's ministry during their lives would realise during or at the moment of their death the truth of Prophet Jesus's prophethood. This is irrespective of when the prophetic ministry of Jesus ended. Those that witnessed yet outlived the ministry of Prophet Jesus, would come to know of the truth later in their lives or certainly at the point of their death. Please also see 23:98-100 where everyone, including disbelievers will come to recognise the truth at the point of their death.

Messengers are always chosen from amongst a people, who speak their language so as to make the message clear to them (14:4) and can only stand witness against their own people to whom they preached. This is a concept established in the Quran (4:41; 2:143, 22:78, 40:51).

Therefore in verse 4:159, Prophet Jesus can only stand as witness against a community he preached to. Given both the dialogue of the verses in question and the fact that Prophet Jesus can only stand witness against his own people (5:117), the people addressed who will realise the truth of the matter are those that were present during Prophet Jesus's ministry. This is the 'against them' (alayhim) that verse 4:159 refers to.

005.117
"Never said I to them aught except what You commanded me, that 'You worship God, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them as long as I was amongst them; then when You caused me to die, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things"

I hope that helps, God willing.
Joseph.

[DARahman]

Assalaamu Alaikum Brother Joe,

I did take a look at ayah 23:98 – 100. 

23:98. And I seek refuge in You, my Lord, lest they be present with me."
23:99. [For such is the state of the disbelievers] until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back
23:100. That I might do righteousness in that which I left behind." No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier until the Day they are resurrected.

You are saying that these ayah refer to people at the point of death.  It appears these ayah are referring to people that are already dead as they are in a state of Barzak.

Peace.

[Joseph Islam]

Assalaamu Alaikum Brother Joe,

I did take a look at ayah 23:98 – 100. 

23:98. And I seek refuge in You, my Lord, lest they be present with me."
23:99. [For such is the state of the disbelievers] until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back
23:100. That I might do righteousness in that which I left behind." No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier until the Day they are resurrected.

You are saying that these ayah refer to people at the point of death.  It appears these ayah are referring to people that are already dead as they are in a state of Barzak.

Peace.

Dear brother DARahman,

Peace to you.

With my statement, "At the point of their death" I intend to clearly imply that a person has just died, which would of course mean that they have entered a state of Barzakh.

I hope that clarifies, God willing.

Regards,
Joseph

[DARahman]

Thank you Brother Joseph.

At this point, I have to conclude that an understanding by some Muslims that Jesus (PBUH) will return is reasonable given the ayah:

4:159. And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [i.e., Jesus] before his death.   And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

It is clear that there will be People of the Book that were contemporaries with Jesus (PBUH) that died believing incorrectly in Jesus (PBUH). 

Therefore, based on the revelation, there must be a future time when as Allah has revealed, all the people of Jesus (PBUH) will believe in Jesus (PBUH) correctly before Jesus’ (PBUH) death.

Allah knows best.