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Offline Mubashir

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2012, 07:35:47 PM »
Good point Wakas. The great sacrifice also involved Ibrahim's separation from his wife and Ismail !!

Offline HOPE

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2012, 08:11:22 PM »
Salaam all,

It would also solve my existential problem as well as social dilemma  as a 'dead beat' dad. :)
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline HOPE

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2012, 09:22:06 PM »
Salaam Wakas,

I cannot connect 37:108 with 109.  Is the salutation left for him?  Then it is not a reward for Abraham exclusively since PBUH is on all nabis.
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2012, 10:36:20 PM »
Salamun Alaikum.

Thank you to those that have shared their perspectives.  :)

I have a few humble questions and a comment given some of the recent posts.


Dear Wakas - In Prophet Abraham's narrative concerning his dream, the Arabic verb used is 'adhbahuka' from the root 'dhiba'. (TH-B-H). This is a word of well known meaning [1]. Please can you provide any evidence from any classical lexicon source or spoken Arabic usage of the word, where the primary signification of the word 'dhiba' is used to imply the action of giving someone up (for a noble cause).

Dear Mubashir - Do you have any Quranic support for your statement "The great sacrifice also involved Ibrahim's separation from his wife and Ismail"?

Dear Hope - With respect and as I'm sure you will agree, as sincere believers we must allow the Quran to speak for itself given the clear Arabic language that it uses to portray its message. As far as I can ascertain, the Quran makes no attempt to correct the general understanding of the intended slaughter by Prophet Abraham that was prevalent with the readers of the previous scriptures whilst using clear Arabic speech. In my humble opinion, it simply ratified it. I raise this point as a critical charge against metaphorical renditions of certain passages which I find have no Quranic warrant. The crux of my contention raises the question, "Why does the Quran use similar terms, expressions and narratives in the Arabic language to support and confirm (musadaqan) the existing understanding of the Jews and Christians which in turn are supported by their scriptures, when its intention is to challenge them?"


Thanks to you all in advance and to those that shared my own views on the subject earlier in the thread.

Regards,
Joseph.  :)



REFERENCE

[1]    SLAUGHTERING OF ANIMALS - THE CORRECT METHOD OF SACRIFICE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/slaughtering%20of%20animals%20-%20the%20correct%20method%20of%20sacrifice%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline HOPE

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2012, 04:59:51 AM »
Salaam Joseph,

Thanks for your reply and reminding me to follow the Quran narration. 

Abraham prays for a salihin son; he is given a halim son.  When he attains the age of working along with his father, Abraham wants to test his faith and submissiveness to God, thus  talks to him about his vision of sacrificing his son who is, knowing that God is with those who are persevering in submission to Him, submits to the Divine Will.


"Allah does not call you to account for what is vain of your oaths, but He will call you to account for what your hearts have earned, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing" (Quran, 2:225).


Some of Allah's messengers are recognized as Haleem; for example, Abraham, the Friend of Allah, is described as, "... most surely Abraham was very tender-hearted, forbearing" (9:114), and in Surat Hud, he is praised likewise: "Most surely Abraham was forbearing, tender-hearted, oft-returning (to Allah)" (11:75).

"So we gave him the glad tidings of a boy [Ishmael] possessing forbearance" (Quran, 3:101).

Al- Haleem quite often overlooks sins and covers up shortcomings.  Al-Haleem shields those who indulge in sins with His forgiveness, pardons those who violate His laws,  is not slighted by the rebellion of the rebellious, and no oppression of any oppressor can ever provoke Him.  He shows gentleness because He is so powerful can delay judgment.

At the human level, haleem knows how to overcome his emotions and passions, calms down his anger when insulted, restrains himself from doing violence.

"And We gave him in exchange a Great Sacrifice" can be understood at the physical level as the Great Sacrifice of animals abolishing the practice of human sacrifice; and on the spiritual level, the animal in man was to be sacrificed to the divine in him.
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2012, 05:18:59 AM »
Dear Hope,

Peace to you.

You have kindly shared characteristics of a noble messenger. Other characteristics are mentioned of other messengers.

However, my academic contention is specific.

If you kindly will, please can you provide clear evidence from the Quran for your statement below, in particular the statement highlighted in bold black.

Quote
"Abraham wants to test his faith and submissiveness to God, thus  talks to him about his vision of sacrificing his son who is, knowing that God is with those who are persevering in submission to Him, submits to the Divine Will."

Please bear in mind that I have yet to see any evidence in any post on this thread which unequivocally proves that the vision was from God which is invariably linked to the initial question posed by the originator of the thread.

Finally, please can you also kindly provide evidence from the Quran to corroborate your statement below which implies that human sacrifice was a practice in situ at the time of Prophet Abraham's life.

Quote
"...as the Great Sacrifice of animals abolishing the practice of human sacrifice..."

PS: With regards the attribute and adjective 'al-haleem', as you know this is a term we have already commented on.

http://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/377445338990649

Regards,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Wakas

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2012, 02:32:45 PM »
w/salaam,

Salaam Wakas,

I cannot connect 37:108 with 109.  Is the salutation left for him?  Then it is not a reward for Abraham exclusively since PBUH is on all nabis.

I'm not sure what you mean by the above, can you clarify.

Offline Wakas

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2012, 02:44:03 PM »
w/salaam,


Dear Wakas - In Prophet Abraham's narrative concerning his dream, the Arabic verb used is 'adhbahuka' from the root 'dhiba'. (TH-B-H). This is a word of well known meaning. Please can you provide any evidence from any classical lexicon source or spoken Arabic usage of the word, where the primary signification of the word 'dhiba' is used to imply the action of giving someone up (for a noble cause).

The word still means "sacrifice" but not a literal slaughter in this context. Similar to the way the word is used in English today, see below. In terms of classical arabic evidence, I only have access to Lane's Lexicon and Dictionary of Quran by Omar, and the connotation or origin of the word can be split/divide, but even so "sacrifice" is still my preference. It would be interesting to determine if this word is used in a non-literal way in a lexicon however.

English Dictionary:
Quote
sac·ri·fice
noun /ˈsakrəˌfīs/ 
sacrifices, plural

An act of slaughtering an animal or person or surrendering a possession as an offering to God or to a divine or supernatural figure
- they offer sacrifices to the spirits
- the ancient laws of animal sacrifice

An animal, person, or object offered in this way

An act of giving up something valued for the sake of something else regarded as more important or worthy


If I may ask you a question, Quran clearly states Abraham fulfilled the vision, thus according to you, what exactly did Abraham fulfil/complete?

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2012, 04:04:53 PM »
Dear brother Wakas,

Thank you for your response.

The word still means "sacrifice" but not a literal slaughter in this context.

I would humbly, yet strongly disagree with this assertion as this in my view has not been proven nor has any evidence been provided hitherto to corroborate this position.

The word is the Arabic word 'dhiba' and not the English word 'sacrifice'. Therefore, our determination must rest squarely within the nuance intended by the Arabic word and not a rendition of the English word.

For readers who are interested to note the meaning of the word 'dhiba' as used in an example of classical sources, please see my article reference [1] below. I assert this is the same manner in which the Quran has used the term as the word is of well known meaning. Please see how the imperfect verb 'yadhbahu' is used in verses 2:67 and 27:21. The act of slaughtering / slaying is inherent whether it is done for the sake of God or otherwise.

Therefore, I respectfully maintain that the word has a specific meaning both in the Quran, classical sources and in the spoken Arabic language.

If I may ask you a question, Quran clearly states Abraham fulfilled the vision, thus according to you, what exactly did Abraham fulfil/complete?

Of course  :)  I have provided a response to this question in another thread which was also kindly shared by brother Duster earlier in this thread.

Quote
"There is a strong implication that this was because they had already 'submitted' in purpose to what they believed was from God."


Am I therefore correct in understanding from your response brother Wakas that there is no evidence that you know of from any classical source or spoken Arabic language that the word 'dhiba' is used to 'give someone up' for example in a noble cause as a primary proper signification of the Arabic term 'dhiba'?


Your brother in faith,
Joseph.


REFERENCE

[1]    SLAUGHTERING OF ANIMALS - THE CORRECT METHOD OF SACRIFICE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/slaughtering%20of%20animals%20-%20the%20correct%20method%20of%20sacrifice%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline HOPE

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2012, 04:22:43 PM »
Peace Joseph,

I do not believe the source of the vision was God but of course He knowingly allowed it to be interpreted that way to create a paradigm shift.  Ritual human sacrifice has been in the human psyche for so long. Aztecs, Incas, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans. Remember Agamemnon wants to sacrifice his daughter Iphegenia to Artemis who stops the wind?


'Shall I give my firstborn for my sin, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?' (Micah 6:7 ),
Isaiah 30:27–33 indicates an acceptance of child sacrifice in the early Jerusalem practices, to which the law in Leviticus 20:2–5 forbidding child sacrifice is a response.

Quran 6:137  And in like manner, their associate gods have made killing their children seem fair to many pagans, so that they may ruin them and cause confusion in their religion. Had God pleased, they would not have done so; so leave them to their false inventions.
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2012, 04:43:36 PM »
Dear Hope,

Peace to you.

Thank you for your response.

I do not believe the source of the vision was God but of course He knowingly allowed it to be interpreted that way to create a paradigm shift. 

This is a sentiment that I would generally concur with.  :)

However with respect, in my humble request for Quranic support, your citation of verse 6:137 does not provide evidence that the killing of the children was a part of a process of human sacrifice during the time of Prophet Abraham. 

Verse 6:137 has a context and if read from the preceding verses 6:135 ff, one will note this is a reference to the pagans contemporaneous to the Prophet. Therefore, this slaughter of children is in my view more likely linked to the general practice of killing of children such as girls [81:8] with the general disdain the pagans exhibited of the female gender (16:58; 43:16; 52:39).

Thank you anyway for sharing your thoughts. Please note that my humble request for evidence is usually generally to assist the discussion to respectfully highlight how much of one's perspective is informed by sources which are extraneous to the Quran.

When attempting to study the Quran from the Quran, I humbly feel we must be willing to undertake a consistent, airtight approach and be willing to concede where our opinions are not formed by the Quranic narratives entirely. This would at least for me, be the most intellectually honest and sincere response. I trust, in this general sentiment that you will at least appreciate my perspective.  :)

Your brother in faith,
Joseph.


'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline HOPE

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2012, 05:04:43 PM »

Peace Joseph,

Quote
When attempting to study the Quran from the Quran, I humbly feel we must be willing to undertake a consistent, airtight approach and be willing to concede where our opinions are not formed by the Quranic narratives entirely. This would at least for me, be the most intellectually honest and sincere response. I trust, in this general sentiment that you will at least appreciate my perspective.

Thanks for taking the time to explain.  I am slow to understand. Now I've got it.

"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2012, 06:03:29 PM »
You are not slow to understand dear sister. From what I have read of your comments, you are gifted with intellect and wisdom Mash'Allah. A pleasure to have on the forum. Peace.  :)
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Wakas

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2012, 10:35:23 PM »
Dear brother Joseph,


Quote
"There is a strong implication that this was because they had already 'submitted' in purpose to what they believed was from God."

Thanks for the reply. In my view, I think the above is possible also.

Firstly, the whole notion of Abraham thinking God told him to sacrifice (as in slaughter) his son in a dream doesn't make sense according to Quranic principles. Perhaps one could argue that is why he asked his son's opinion, but interestingly he replies "O my father, do what you are commanded. You will find me, God willing, of the patient ones.". If it meant slaughter, it seems odd he would concur and use the word "commanded" - as he seems to automatically deduce it is a command for some reason.
Note the order of what the son replies. According to corpus.quran.com the prefix "sa" is a "FUT – prefixed future particle sa" and patient ones" is an active participle, and these come after he says "do what you are commanded", implying do what you are commanded and God willing you will find me of the patient ones. Obviously, if he is slaughtered him being patient or not does not make sense.
To me, the implication is that the vision was from God. If not, we'd have to assume whatever Abraham dreamt, he thought it was commands from God, or at least, this one was, and so did his son apparently. Seems unusual to me, but possible. They both submit to whatever the dream was about, then it says "We like thus reward the good-doers" - now, if the command was not from God, then the implication of this is if one thinks (in a dream lets say) God is commanding them to do X (even if X is not from God) then this will be rewarded and you can be described as a good-doer. Since when is doing something that goes against Quranic principles (as you admit it would have been) for the sole reason that one happens to think it is from God ever discussed positively in Quran? Never to my knowledge.
Further the word "trial/balau" is always used in Quran as from God.

Having said the above, it is not definitive that is was from God, but there is certainly evidence suggesting it was.

If it meant slaughter, then technically he did not fulfil the vision. He was about to, but did not complete it. But this could be argued against as you have said.

And lastly it says "And We ransomed/exchanged him (son) with/by/for a great sacrifice." which to me, the use of "great" seems odd if it meant an animal replacement for slaughter.

If this is coupled with what I said previously, and the definitive "settled some/of/from (partitive) of my progeny" in 14:37 this implies a clear split between Abraham/Ishmael/Isaac, i.e. they are not all in the same place.


Please note, I am not saying my understanding is solid, but I do consider it reasonable.



Quote
Am I therefore correct in understanding from your response brother Wakas that there is no evidence that you know of from any classical source or spoken Arabic language that the word 'dhiba' is used to 'give someone up' for example in a noble cause as a primary proper signification of the Arabic term 'dhiba'?

I have not checked most classical arabic lexicons if the word is used to mean "sacrifice" in a non-slaughter way, or a similar meaning, but I have checked Lane and DofQ and not found such in them. If you have, please let me know.

Offline HOPE

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2012, 02:17:10 AM »
Peace to all,

Just wanted to share with you  Iqbal's expression of what it means to be entirely resigned to God:

To enter into Islam is to step on the altar of love for being sacrificed
People think that it is easy to become a Muslim.
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"