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Offline s1c4r1us

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2019, 05:44:35 AM »
Good point Wakas. The great sacrifice also involved Ibrahim's separation from his wife and Ismail !!

That was actually a fight which separated them. Read the Torah. Even until this day the Israelites and Arabs hate each other.

The Quran doesn't give the name of the son who was going to be sacrificed. The Torah and the Gospel both say it was Isaac, by name, and i checked the Hebrew and Greek. The Quran again tells us that it confirmed the Torah and the Gospel. So there should be no doubt about who the sacrificed son was.

I think God wanted to see if Abraham could support Jesus Christ by asking him to sacrifice hes son to God. Remember how God made a substitute when Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac, which symbolic can mean that it wasn't Isaac who was going to come with the big changes, but it was Jesus Christ, who sacrificed himself as a lamb to God who teaches us how to love God and each other.

Offline s1c4r1us

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2019, 05:46:12 AM »
Salaam Joseph,

Thanks for your reply and reminding me to follow the Quran narration. 

Abraham prays for a salihin son; he is given a halim son.  When he attains the age of working along with his father, Abraham wants to test his faith and submissiveness to God, thus  talks to him about his vision of sacrificing his son who is, knowing that God is with those who are persevering in submission to Him, submits to the Divine Will.


"Allah does not call you to account for what is vain of your oaths, but He will call you to account for what your hearts have earned, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing" (Quran, 2:225).


Some of Allah's messengers are recognized as Haleem; for example, Abraham, the Friend of Allah, is described as, "... most surely Abraham was very tender-hearted, forbearing" (9:114), and in Surat Hud, he is praised likewise: "Most surely Abraham was forbearing, tender-hearted, oft-returning (to Allah)" (11:75).

"So we gave him the glad tidings of a boy [Ishmael] possessing forbearance" (Quran, 3:101).

Al- Haleem quite often overlooks sins and covers up shortcomings.  Al-Haleem shields those who indulge in sins with His forgiveness, pardons those who violate His laws,  is not slighted by the rebellion of the rebellious, and no oppression of any oppressor can ever provoke Him.  He shows gentleness because He is so powerful can delay judgment.

At the human level, haleem knows how to overcome his emotions and passions, calms down his anger when insulted, restrains himself from doing violence.

"And We gave him in exchange a Great Sacrifice" can be understood at the physical level as the Great Sacrifice of animals abolishing the practice of human sacrifice; and on the spiritual level, the animal in man was to be sacrificed to the divine in him.

3:101 doesn't mention the word Ishmael..

Offline Wakas

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2019, 06:57:17 PM »
I have now updated the article with a list of test questions at the end so people can put their understanding to the test.

Direct link.


Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2019, 11:59:02 PM »
Asalamu 3alykum brother Wakas

Thank you for sharing your perspective on the narrative.

These are my humble thoughts on your perspective.

You still seem to accept that a dream of an actual slaughter/sacrifice has appeared to Abraham in his dream because of course the word of "dhib'hin/sacrifice" was used and as you admitted that "Dh-B-Ḥ carries the meanings:
a) to split something,
b) to slit someone's/something's throat
c) to strangle someone/something."


and admitted that "and this word is always used to mean a literal slaughter/sacrifice/kill in Quran."

So in this case your saying the dream is still ultimately from God because he was commanded to separate from his son.

Since your saying that Abraham interpreted the dream that he was to separate from his son rather than slaughter/sacrifice his son, why does God call out to him "O' Abraham, Surely you have believed/confirmed the vision...." when yet Abraham still has not departed or separated from his son at this point.

What is the significance of this?

Since your also saying that they just put there heads together instead of Abraham putting his sons head down I do not see any separation at this point although the son was said he would bare patience while the command was carried. So the command at this stage if taken as separation was not yet carried out nor did the son need to have patience because no separation was done yet and also the significance of the verse when God has called "O' Abraham" has been totally undermined and given little significance.

What your interpolation seems to be suggesting to me is that Abraham had a dream of a literal slaughter/sacrifice of his son and then reinterpreted the dream to leave his son instead. Then as they were just getting ready to separate and saying goodbye, God calls to him for reinterpreting the dream to the correct way and also exchanged Abrahams separation with a great sacrifice.

I am also not sure how you interpreted 3:107. You said "In the Abraham leaving scenario the "great/mighty sacrifice" would refer to the great sacrifice made by leaving his beloved son, making it a self-contained explanation."

What is the exchanged or ransom that was done by God for the operation to Abraham? the verse says "Wafadaynahu bithibhin AAatheemin"- "We ransomed him with a sacrifice great".

Would this make sense to say " we ransomed him(Abraham) with a great separation"?


For a few reasons I cannot accept this interpolation and I think it undermined the Quranic narrative to where much of the wisdom that can be extracted towards how such prophets interacted with such inspirations has been taken away. It also undermines the wisdom that can be extracted that shows how such prophets struggled with their capacity as being prophets and there struggles to understand what was from the Lord and what was not from the Lord and their eagerness to never disobey the Lord.

It was a good read, but I have to respectfully argue that I find that Abraham had a dream that he seemed very stunned by and which he obviously thought it was from the Lord.

We do understand from the Quran that Abraham is not foreign to inspirations and witnessing great miracles like how he was saved from the fire.

The dream lead him to ask what his son thought of it which also illustrated the belief they both had towards God. The son did seem certain with the belief in God and replied that in my own words that if this is what God had commanded then do what your commanded as this shows their trust in God.

This question by Abraham to his son also seems to show there could of been a little doubt and the struggle he was copping with, and would possibly be easier with the acceptance of his son.

They both submitted and as the practice was being taken place and the patience of the son was being illustrated and the act was being taking place as the sons head was flung down, God by His mercy had intervened and stopped this action and exchanged some how some way his son to a great sacrifice of some sort. No details given of how this happened and what was exchanged. However this is not surprising as also we understand those communities of the past had been shown miracles and Abraham also is one who seems to be familiar with the intervention of God when God saved him from the fire and made the fire to be cool.

Also no where in the Quran does it say God had commanded it.

Thanks for sharing

Salam

Offline Wakas

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Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2019, 08:50:58 AM »
peace brother Hamzeh,

Thank you for your considered reply. I note however you made no attempt to answer any of the questions cited in the list.

Quote
why does God call out to him "O' Abraham, Surely you have believed/confirmed the vision...." when yet Abraham still has not departed or separated from his son at this point.

What is the significance of this?

We do not know when Abraham was called, i.e. if it was immediately after this goodbye embrace, or shortly after etc. Either way my view works perfectly.

If you insist your argument has merit then the same argument can be said against your view, i.e. no actual slaughter took place.


Quote
...the son was said he would bare patience while the command was carried. So the command at this stage if taken as separation was not yet carried out nor did the son need to have patience because no separation was done yet and also the significance of the verse when God has called "O' Abraham" has been totally undermined and given little significance.

Please provide your Quranic evidence for your interpretation of the word in red bold above. Again, if you insist your argument has merit then the same argument can be said against your view, i.e. no actual slaughter had yet been carried out.
Interestingly, in your view the patience seems to refer to the son with his head down waiting patiently for the knife to strike (or whatever the slaughter method would be) - if you think this is befitting then each to their own. In any case the son being patient in your interpretation contradicts your interpretation of being flung down, as you put it. I mention this issue in Q4 in my list.


Quote
I am also not sure how you interpreted 3:107. You said "In the Abraham leaving scenario the "great/mighty sacrifice" would refer to the great sacrifice made by leaving his beloved son, making it a self-contained explanation."

What is the exchanged or ransom that was done by God for the operation to Abraham? the verse says "Wafadaynahu bithibhin AAatheemin"- "We ransomed him with a sacrifice great".

Would this make sense to say " we ransomed him(Abraham) with a great separation"?

The son was exchanged/ransomed with a mighty/great sacrifice, which Abraham made by separating from his son. This mighty deed was taken into account by God and he/they were rewarded as a result. It is a self contained explanation because there is absolutely nothing else mentioned in context. I prefer this rather than interpolating a sacrificial animal for example, which is the common understanding.

I also disagree with your view that my understanding somehow undermines other aspects of Quranic narratives. In fact, the opposite argument could be made, it is your view that undermines various aspects.


What I found most interesting about your reply was that your view seems to suffer from the objections you raised about mine. Once an attempt has been made to answer the questions in the list I think it will become obvious which view has the most issues, but as always, each to their own.