Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Daughters of Lut

Offline chadiga

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
Daughters of Lut
« on: November 02, 2012, 12:53:38 PM »
Salam all

i have a question about 11.78


The Monotheist Group   
11:78 And his people came rushing towards him, and before it they were committing sin, he said: "My people, these are my daughters, they are purer for you, so be aware of God and do not disgrace me regarding my guests. Is there no sane man among you?"
Muhammad Asad   
11:78 And his people came running to him, impelled towards his house [by their desire]:108 for they had ever been wont to commit [such], abominations. Said [Lot]: "O my people! [Take instead] these daughters of mine: they are purer for you [than men]!109 Be, then, conscious of God, and disgrace me not by [assaulting] my guests. Is there not among you even one right-minded man?"
Rashad Khalifa   
11:78 His people came rushing; they had grown accustomed to their sinful acts. He said, "O my people, it would be purer for you, if you take my daughters instead. You shall reverence GOD; do not embarrass me with my guests. Have you not one reasonable man among you?"
Shabbir Ahmed   11:78
 And the most iniquitous among his people came rushing to Lot. (They wanted the visiting messengers to approve their behavior.) Lot said, "O My people! Your wives, who are like my daughters, are permitted for you. Be mindful of God, and do not humiliate me in the presence of my guests. Is there not a single upright man among you?"
Transliteration   11:78
Wajaahu qawmuhu yuhraAAoona ilayhiwamin qablu kanoo yaAAmaloona alssayyi-ati qalaya qawmi haola-i banatee hunna atharulakum faittaqoo Allaha wala tukhzooni fee dayfeealaysa minkum rajulun rasheedun
   
11:78 وجاءه قومه يهرعون اليه ومن قبل كانوا يعملون السيات قال يقوم هولاء بناتى هن اطهر لكم فاتقوا الله ولا تخزون فى ضيفى اليس منكم رجل رشيد

 First, it does not mean how often translated, "here you have my daughters," but "these are my daughters." Either way is implied mostly so would the daughters offered to the aggressors. The second part is accordingly commonly translated as "they are purer for you." But why should the messenger of God offer his daughters to the wrongdoer with the words: they are purer for you??

So, what is the correct translation? And what God want tell us with this story??

the example from Lot it is not about homosexuality - it is about open fahischa - those men were so little gay as you and I. those men  didn't noticed the women  because the women for them was nothing -lower creatures >:(
Homosexuality is a matter between two individuals who love each other.(coupled with the feeling, to not  find the own gender attractive)
 The described Sex-orgies in  this Sura has to do with sexual perversion as we see it today everywhere (sex without a relationship, sex with animals, with children, with men and women, etc.) >:(

So i think God point to the fact, that
1. Love and respect must be an integral part of Sexuality - and the Sexuality only as an integral part  between two human who love each others. (and should be married)
2. To be married and have children is the normal
3. The fahischa from Lots people is less the actual homosexuality, but rather the unbridled perversion and not respectful of women (who God clearly has created as biological mothers and essential partners for men )

thanks for reading and your thoughts??
peace :)

Offline Sardar Miyan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 968
    • View Profile
Re: Daughters of Lut
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2012, 04:44:08 AM »
Your presentaion is right which needs detailed explanation for me also.Therefore any brother on this Forum may please explain us the actual position of this aya.Thanks
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Joseph Islam

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1771
    • View Profile
    • The Quran and its Message
Re: Daughters of Lut
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2012, 08:14:43 AM »
Dear Chadiga and all,

Peace to you all.

In my humble opinion, the Quran is absolutely, unequivocally and unambiguously clear as to 'what' the ‘fahisha’ (lewdness) was in this context that the people of Prophet Lot committed.

007.081
"Indeed, you approach men lustfully (shahwatan) instead of women. Nay, you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (musrifun)"
 
027.055
 "Why do you approach men with lust (shahwatan) instead of women? Nay you are a people ignorant!"

Therefore, I absolutely do not accept any implied insinuations that the 'fahisha' had little to do with open homosexuality, especially when there are explicit statements from the Quran.

With regards 11:78, this is an intense, extremely powerful narrative (often lost in translation) and captures the condition of a people and Prophet Lot's absolute desperation in the matter.

The context is clear - Prophet Lot was extremely distressed (sia), uneasy (dhar'an) and didn't know how to protect his people (11:77).

In such a heightened state of emotion, Prophet Lot's response was nothing but a last ditch attempt to avert an intense punishment. A whole community was about to be wiped out / obliterated / destroyed and this was no small matter.

Such intense trepidation was even captured by Prophet Abraham's response to the matter where he even pleaded and argued with God's messengers on their account (yujadilina 11:74).

The impending doom was so intense, that even God swore on Prophet Muhammad's life intimating the gravity of what was about to afflict them.

015.072
By your life (la'amruka) (O Muhammad) indeed, they were in a frenzy / wild intoxication / mind befogged wandering blindly.

This is no small matter and it is in this context that Lot's response must be understood and his desperate efforts to avert doom. This is not a case of a casual social gathering where one simply offers their daughters up to a group of homosexuals. The intensity and context of the situation must be appreciated.

As far as what I read from the Arabic, “haulai banati hunna atharu lakum”, in my personal opinion ‘These are my daughters - they are purer for you’ is my best approximate rendition.

Finally, with a view to address a common misconception, the punishment delivered to the community of Prophet Lot was not only due to their immoral sexual transgressions. This was only one factor. The community had transgressed all bounds and their illicit and immoral works had become fair seeming  to them despite their warnings (29:34). They also committed highway robberies and conducted evil in their meetings (29:29).
 
They knew full well that their actions were 'impure' and 'immoral', yet they had no intention to mend their ways remaining defiantly disobedient.  This is confirmed with the response they advanced to Prophet Lot.
 
007.082
"And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "Drive them out of your town: Indeed, these are a people who want to keep themselves pure (Arabic: yatatah'harun)"

I hope that helps, God willing.
Joseph.


Related Article:

[1] HOMOSEXUALITY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/homosexuality%20FM3.htm

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline HOPE

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: Daughters of Lut
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2012, 06:50:11 PM »
Salaam all,

Thank you for your post brother Joseph, very well put as always.

Story of Lut is one of the inconsistencies in the Bible.  Though he has been considered a righteous servant of God in Genesis:18,  yet in 19 we are told that he was guilty of incestuous sex with his daughters: clearly a fabrication.  Quran states that he was given wisdom and knowledge

21:74-75  to Lot We gave wisdom and knowledge and delivered him from the city which practiced abomination. They were indeed a wicked people. We admitted him to Our mercy; he was a righteous man.

This is the assurance for us that God looks after the righteous.

I am thinking that Malaks being spiritual creations cannot really transform into physical form but they can be seen in the physical form only in dreams or visions.  When they visited Abraham before, possibly  in his vision to announce the birth of Ishaq, they also announced the impending punishment of the people of Lut

It is also possible that this 11:79 incident took place in a vision; his people rushing towards him in lust and lewdness as they used to do before.  They are called qawmun musrifun/ exceeding the limits, exaggeration.

26:166  keeping yourselves aloof from all the [lawful] spouses whom your Sustainer has created for you? Nay, but you are people who transgress all bounds of what is right!”

It is possible he was offering the potential wives of the town as his daughters, him being the father of his people - just another approach maybe.








UPDATE BY QM FORUM MODERATOR

13th March 2013

This thread is now closed and a direct link to this post is now available at the dedicated Q&A page.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/q&as%20FM3.htm

Thanks.


"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"