Muhammad Asad, Legends?

[Peaceful]

Salamun Alaikum,

My brother was reading about Muhammad Asad and his translation. He was shocked to find:

"In this instance, Solomon evidently refers to his own understanding and admiration of nature (cf. 38:31-33 and the corresponding notes) as well as to his loving compassion for the humblest of God's creatures, as a great divine blessing: and this is the Qur'anic moral of the LEGENDARY story of the ant." (Asad, The Message of the Qur'an [Dar Al-Andalus Limited 3 Library Ramp, Gibraltar rpt. 1993], p. 578, fn. 17

"In this as well as in several other passages relating to Solomon, the Qur'an alludes to many POETIC LEGENDS which were associated with his name since early antiquity and had become part and parcel of Judeo-Christian and Arabian lore long before the advent of Islam. Although it is undoubtedly possible to interpret such passages in a 'rationalistic' manner, I do not think that this is really necessary. Because they were so deeply ingrained in the imagination of the people to whom the Qur'an addressed itself in the first instance, these legendary accounts of Solomon's wisdom and magic powers had acquired a cultural reality of their own and were, therefore, eminently suited to serve as a medium for the parabolic exposition of certain ethical truths with which this book is concerned: and so, without denying or confirming their MYTHICAL character, the Qur'an uses them as a foil for the idea that God is the ultimate source of all human power and glory, and that all achievements of human ingenuity, even though they may sometimes border on the miraculous, are but an expression of His transcendental creativity." (Asad, p. 498, fn. 77;

There are about a dozen things of the like Asad states in his translation. Does anyone believe the things he claims. Is he supposed to be a Kafir for rejecting the literal meaning of the verses(i.e. historicity)

[HOPE]

Salaam Peaceful,

 Is he supposed to be a Kafir for rejecting the literal meaning of the verses

That kind of judgment is God's to make.  I do not know of any verse telling me to take only the literal meaning of it.  People can have different interpretations.    Muhammad Ali in his commentary states that the word "naml translated as ant was  also the name of a tribe who occupied the territory that served as a buffer between Solomon and the Queen.  That may be so but the word as given in the verses conveys a different symbolic idea. 

Although the name is mentioned when Solomon reviewed the birds, it is difficult to consider Hudhud as a bird from what it has said about the Queen.  Bird can talk and communicate but can a bird make value judgments; judge what a false belief or a wicked deed is.  Mighty king inflicts a severe punishment on a small bird?  Maybe he was a spy in the army.  In the Bible, there is a king of Syria called Ben-Hudhud.  Just a thought

[Peaceful]

Yes, you're right. There was a king in Syria at the time of Solomon named Bar-Haddad. They were enemies though. Does anyone else think this is him?

[Saba]

Salaam Hope.

You posted>

Although the name is mentioned when Solomon reviewed the birds, it is difficult to consider Hudhud as a bird

I'd have to ask then why does Allah in the Quran use well known words in Arabic if He does not intend what He clearly says?

Why does He use the word 'bird' - TAYR?

Let us allow the Quran to define how the noun 'Tayr' is used as opposed to secondary sources.

002:260 God said, "Take four birds, draw them to you
003:049 in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird,
003:049 and it becomes a bird by God's leave:
005:110 you make out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave,
005:110 and it becometh a bird by My leave,
012:036 I see myself (in a dream) carrying bread on my head, and birds are eating from it
012:041 he will be crucified so that the birds will eat from his head.
016:079 Have they not seen the birds obedient in mid-air?
021:079 Our power that made the hills and the birds celebrate Our praises
022:031 it is as if he had fallen from the sky and the birds had snatched him or the wind had blown him to a far-off place.
024:041 and the (very) birds with expanded wings
034:010 O ye hills and birds, echo his psalms of praise!
056:021 And flesh of fowls (domesticated bird: Hen, Turkey, Duck, Guinea fowl etc) that they desire.
067:019 Have they not seen the birds above them spreading out their wings and closing them?
105:003 And He sent against them flights of birds,

The above references are taken from a discussion with br. Joseph which I would like to highlight as recommended reading! It is a good debate from both sides of the argument.

http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=335

I would still have to ask the question. Why would Allah use the word 'bird' if that is not what Allah wants to say? Especially when Qur'an says it is in clear Arabic speech. Any answers to this particular question will be appreciated. Thanks, Saba   

[Peaceful]

Good observation Hope. Anyway, this is secondary to my primary concern. What do you think of Muhammad Asad's 'conclusions'? Do you think they are parables or literal?

[HOPE]

Salaam Saba,

I would still have to ask the question. Why would Allah use the word 'bird' if that is not what Allah wants to say? Especially when Qur'an says it is in clear Arabic speech. Any answers to this particular question will be appreciated.

In either case I have a dilemma.  He wouldn't and if He does I do not know the wisdom behind it. 
Yes, Solomon was gifted with a knowledge of birds' voices.  Understanding their communications is his gift and it does not mean the bird is also gifted with the power to differentiate two meanings and form a thought.  That is al bayan that God taught Adam  (55:4)   The faculty of speech separates man from the rest of the animal kingdom.
Does Quran say Hudhud is a bird?  The idea arises from the fact that his name is mentioned in connection with the birds just like Iblis was mentioned in connection with the angels in Adam's story.

1Kings 20:1: Now Ben-Hadad the king of Syria gathered all his forces together;     
The name of the  king that attacked Samiria is very similar which shows it can be a human name as well.

[Saba]

Does Quran say Hudhud is a bird?

Salaam Hope,

'Hudhud' is a well known Arabic word as a type of bird. Also if you read 27:20, the verse clearly says that Solomon was inspecting the birds from which the Hudhud was missing. Honestly - I don't think it can be any more clear than that.

If we can believe that a woman (Mary) can have a child (Jesus) without male intervention from the Quran, I don't see why someone could not be taught the understanding of the speech of birds. Thanks Saba 

[HOPE]

Peace Saba,

You say it is a well known Arabic word for a bird, rose is an English name for a flower but can be a name for a girl also.  Are you saying there is no similarity with the verse when angels were asked to prostrate; they all did except Iblis?  Since I do not know Arabic, I cannot compare them grammatically.  Solomon could realize that Mr. Hudhud was missing when he was reviewing the birds.

Mary's body is designed to give birth to a child growing inside her womb.  Bird brains are not designed to differentiate and express themselves. And it does not say We taught the birds reasoning and the power to chirp their thoughts clearly; only Solomon was given the ability to understand what they are chirping about.

[Saba]

Salaam Hope - Then i guess I am totally confused to why the Qur'an uses well known words of Arabic when it means something else. Some critics would even say that is deliberate confusion. I mean why even the mention of a Mr. Hudhud while inspecting birds??

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=27&verse=20

and this straight after the verses of the Ants? In other places the Qur'an talks about the speech of birds that Solomon and David were taught? I guess then we need to question the point of that too. Why even mention that? There is obviously a connection in my view which to me at least seems clear. I guess everyone is free to believe what they want. So all respects. Salaam. Saba 

[HOPE]

 Dear sister,

I'm just thinking loudly, that is all.   Mentioning Mr. Hudhud while inspecting hudhuds can be explained by a mental activity called 'association'.  It is a possibility.
I know one instance of the word 'bird' used metaphorically like  in verse 17:13 Wakulla insanin alzamnahu ta-irahu

[Saba]

Salaam Hope, I understand completely. Re - 17:13, this was also discussed in the link I shared. Sharing below just for info thats all. Saba 

http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=361

[HOPE]

Hi,

The reason bird is used metaphorically is that once  the deeds are performed they fly away, only their impress is left on the heart which will become manifest in the hereafter.

[islamist]

Is he supposed to be a Kafir for rejecting the literal meaning of the verses(i.e. historicity)

It is a very harsh question! This was the tool used by those who cling to 'traditions' to prevent logical/critical analysis in Islam.

In verse 2:26 Allah states  the possibility of using simile even that of a mosquito (to convey certain facts).   Therefore illustrations using insignificant things as gnats, spiders, ants, birds, bees are possible.   The word "kursi' (chair) has been used in 2:55 figuratively as a symbol of power and authority.  In the narration of Ant (speaking, thinking, understanding,  recognizing facts, evaluating circumstances, acting like a human being)  in the story of Solomon,  may be the purpose was to convey the power of  Solomon’s army in relation to the people residing in the valley (Allahu Ahlam!).   I am not sure how strong is the argument, since one word/term in used in one sense at all verses it has to be with the same meaning at any given place, especially considering certain circumstantial facts (like an ant acting like a human being) and also 2:26.

I would like to state something - may not have very direct connection for examples like "bird".  Recently someone was pointing out to me 6:151 قُلْ تَعَالَوْا أَتْلُ مَا حَرَّمَ رَبُّكُمْ عَلَيْكُمْ , and if we take the normal meaning provided in Quran for حَرَّمَ as forbidden, it will confuse the whole instructions contained in the verse, for instance, the first instruction mentioned in the verse is, ‘Do not associate anyone with Allah’.  It would mean ‘Do not associate anyone with Allah’ is forbidden!  So, it seems to me, we have to give appropriate contextual meanings, without just looking into the meaning of the word/ term in other places (certainly it is required to be analysed - but it should not be the only justification), to appreciate Quranic truth. 

[Peaceful]

Yes, you're right. It's not my business how other people interpret the Quran, literally or figuratively.

The point I'm trying to covey is he believes this entire story in the Quran is a MYTH! He is essentially saying P Mohammed heard these stories and used them as the backdrop for his moral messages. I didn't make these claims blindly. I thought long and hard over this Verse:

When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say: "We have heard this (before): if we wished, we could say (words) like these: these are nothing but tales of the ancients."

Can someone really be a Muslim if he questions the validity of the Quranic stories???

[HOPE]

Salaam Peaceful,

I'm confused now, brother. When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say: "We have heard this (before): if we wished, we could say (words) like these: these are nothing but tales of the ancients."
  You know this is a Quranic verse, don't you?

Where does Asad say Prophet Muhammad heard these stories and used them for his moral messages?  Asad was a convert and he never questioned the veracity of the divine origin of the Quran.  Please give us exact quotations better yet give me the page numbers of the Asad's Quran translation or commentary of which verse or which footnote.  I have the book  so I can read it myself.

Thanks