3:7 - Question to Bro.Joseph Islam

[islamist]

Assalamu alai'kum
I came across the following question and answer and I have couple of questions.

Salam alaykum Joseph,

I had a couple questions on 3:7

Verse 7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

1.  Some believe that the verse says...."but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge.  They say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

So some say the sentence ends at the end of "and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge."

I personally feel that the Qur'an left some ambiguity because those grounded in knowledge will grasp much of the allegorical verses (wheras many of those not with knowlede will not) but they may not grasp all the verses with the allegorical meaning and they may not grasp the full profundities of meanings and multiplicities of meanings as of course God can.

2.  "But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its..."

I understand why it is perverse to seek discord but is not searching for hidden meanings good so we can ponder on the Qur'an as other verse tell us to do so?

Maybe the criticism is only on "seeking discord" part but "searching for hidden meanings" is still attached to it as a conjunction.....how do you interpret it?

Reply From Bro. Joseph Islam:

Salamun Alaikum.

I have shared my humble perspective in parts.

The Recitation:

The Quran is a 'mutawwatir' (with majority consensus) reading and secondly a text. Both have worked in tandem to protect the authenticity of the Quran. (recitation + codex). Any codex text of the Quran must always be understood in light of the Quran's mutawwatir recitation.

The main drive of verse 3:7 is to cement a believer's approach to the Quran which is to focus on the fundamental over the allegorical, clear over the unclear, substance over the symbolic, explicit over the implicit, and greater over the lesser.  Similarly, no lesser reading can ever supersede a majority reading.

The majority reading of 3:7 without doubt, accepts the pause separating it from 'wa-rasikuhuna fi-l'ilmi' (And those firm in knowledge)

Grasping Profundities:

I think there is a crucial difference in the 'tadabbur' (reflecting, studying, analysing) of clear verses of the Quran, reconciling them with other passages to 'grasp the full profundities' of its meaning, extracting 'hikmah' (wisdom) and applying them to our daily lives with that of 'searching the Quran for hidden meanings' and pursuing 'mutashibihaat'.

There is a difference.

The Quran calls itself 'clear bayyin', so the idea of pondering to extract hidden meanings does not even arise. Furthermore, the Quran clearly rebukes the approach without a proviso. I read the 'ib'tigha 'lfitna' (seeking discord) as a confirmation of a condition along with 'ibtighaa tawilihi' (seeking its interpretation) not a proviso. As with 74:31, there is a disease in the heart (fi qulubihim maradun) which makes them take this approach.

In my humble opinion, such an approach to seek hidden meanings and to justify it from the Quran is usually concocted by those that largely have a theological axe to grind to support esoteric knowledge and twist clear verses of the Quran to support a particular theological bias.

I hope that helps, God willing.

Regards,
Joseph.

Dear Bro.Joseph Islam,

With full respect to your comments, I have some questions.  It seems to me there are some points needed to be verified and the truth is somewhere in the middle, not very clear cut.  The reasons;

1. You have mentioned “Quran is a 'mutawwatir' (with majority consensus) reading”.  I am unsure if it is appropriate to say majority understanding must be accepted as final – unless it is proved linguistically and grammatically that it is incorrect to say "no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge".  Even you have rejected traditional majority view when you interpreted - with very convincing proof - the word "seven" mentioned in “seven oft repeated verses”, is not actually “seven” but “several”.   So this point needs a further clarification and confirmation from you.

2. I understand your comments regarding 'grasping the full profundities' and also your comment Quran calls itself 'clear bayyin'.   However, I prefer to get a clarification for the verse using an example.   Let me state an example of a 'mutashibihaat' verse and I look forward to your analysis based on your explanation of the verse.  It is clear that the words like “hands of Allah” and “face of Allah” are 'mutashibihaat' verses.  I hope you do not have a different opinion on this point.  Here, we can safely assume that those who have firm knowledge (rasikuhuna fi-l'ilmi') will desist from giving literal interpretation for such verses, however, people who do not follow a correct approach (like those who follow secondary sources to explain the Quran and people who have lost focus on Quran, etc) likely to take these 'mutashibihaat’ verses and interpret them in the literal sense.  It is a big fitna to give literal meaning for these verses.   Don’t you think this is what is strongly condemned in the verse?  One important point to note in this verse is the term 'wa-rasikuhuna fi-l'ilmi'.  Is it supposed that only 'wa-rasikuhuna fi-l'ilmi' to say “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord”?  Allah could have given a clear instruction for all the believers to say “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord” without searching the hidden meaning of the  'mutashibihaat’ verses! 

Can you explain your understanding through the example of  'mutashibihaat' verses “hands of Allah” and “face of Allah” in Quran?   The choices of words in verse 3:7 seem very mysterious to me.  I feel like it can be interpreted in both ways with a stronger possibility of what I have stated (Allahu ahlam). 

Salaam!

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Islamist,

May peace be with you.

Please see below my responses to your questions 

1. You have mentioned “Quran is a 'mutawwatir' (with majority consensus) reading”.  I am unsure if it is appropriate to say majority understanding must be accepted as final – unless it is proved linguistically and grammatically that it is incorrect to say "no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge". 

The oral and written propagation ‘mutawatir’ (en masse) is in reference to the integrity of the ‘reading’ (the Quran) and not its interpretation. There is only one reading that left the Prophet (75:17-18) and not numerous versions of the Quran. Of course, there can be different / shades of interpretations of a verse. Please see article [1] below.

Even you have rejected traditional majority view when you interpreted - with very convincing proof - the word "seven" mentioned in “seven oft repeated verses”, is not actually “seven” but “several”.   So this point needs a further clarification and confirmation from you.

All the written Quran’s in the world and in all the reciters of the Quran say ‘saba’. This is the ‘mutawatir’ reading. Nobody says ‘tamanya’ [number 8], instead of ‘saba’.

However, interpretation (i.e. what is the meaning of ‘saba’ given a particular context) is another matter. These are two separate issues.

2. I understand your comments regarding 'grasping the full profundities' and also your comment Quran calls itself 'clear bayyin'.   However, I prefer to get a clarification for the verse using an example.   Let me state an example of a 'mutashibihaat' verse and I look forward to your analysis based on your explanation of the verse.  It is clear that the words like “hands of Allah” and “face of Allah” are 'mutashibihaat' verses.  I hope you do not have a different opinion on this point. 

I do not necessarily think that I have a different opinion per se, but I do feel that we may have a slightly different understanding of the terms you are using. Please see my article [2] below which discusses the meaning of 'mutashabih’ from the Quran.

Here, we can safely assume that those who have firm knowledge (rasikuhuna fi-l'ilmi') will desist from giving literal interpretation for such verses,

In my humble opinion, those truly rooted in knowledge will give the best interpretation from a Quranic perspective regardless whether the interpretation is 'literal' or 'metaphorical'. They will provide clear arguments and cogent support from the Quran’s verses for their view.

however, people who do not follow a correct approach (like those who follow secondary sources to explain the Quran and people who have lost focus on Quran, etc) likely to take these 'mutashibihaat’ verses and interpret them in the literal sense.  It is a big fitna to give literal meaning for these verses.   Don’t you think this is what is strongly condemned in the verse? 

Once again, may I kindly request that you refer to my article [2] below where I have discussed verse 3:7 and the concepts you are addressing.

One important point to note in this verse is the term 'wa-rasikuhuna fi-l'ilmi'.  Is it supposed that only 'wa-rasikuhuna fi-l'ilmi' to say “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord”?  Allah could have given a clear instruction for all the believers to say “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord” without searching the hidden meaning of the  'mutashibihaat’ verses! 

In my humble opinion, an example of 'mutashabih' verses are 74:30-31 with regards the number 19. I have discussed this matter in the article [3] below. Another are the 'Huroof-e-Muqqatat' (Disjointed Letters). I have discussed this in the article [4] below.

Can you explain your understanding through the example of  'mutashibihaat' verses “hands of Allah” and “face of Allah” in Quran?   The choices of words in verse 3:7 seem very mysterious to me.  I feel like it can be interpreted in both ways with a stronger possibility of what I have stated (Allahu ahlam). 

In my opinion, this is not an example of 'mutashabih' as such as the Quran is clear.  God has no comparison (112:4) or physical likeness - laysa kamith-lihi shayon (42:11) nor is he part of His creation [5]. Physical attributes are manifestation of a 'created' realm. God is 'uncreated' as a contrast and is not part of a 'created realm'.

Therefore to understand ‘hands’ and ‘face’ as literal makes little sense from a Quranic perspective. This is just simply a Quranic interpretation. 


I hope that helps, God willing.
Joseph.


REFERENCES:

[1] THE SEVEN AHRUF, RECITATIONS (QIRAAT), HAFS AND WARSH
http://quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20readings%20FM3.htm
[2] ARE MUTASHABIH VERSES ALLEGORICAL?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/mutashabih%20FM3.htm
[3] CODE 19 AND THE REMOVAL OF TWO VERSES FROM THE QURAN - A PROBLEMATIC THEORY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/19%20FM3.htm
[4] HUROOF-E-MUQQATAT (DISJOINTED LETTERS)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/huroof-e-muqqatat%20FM3.htm
[5] TIME, SPACE AND DIVINE PRESENCE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/illustrations%20FM2.htm

[islamist]

Bro.Joseph Islam, Salaam!

Considering your comments in a different angle, I must admit here that you have succeeded to make some valid points.  However I still believe the points are still not clear.   Since you have differences of opinion regarding hands of Allah / face of Allah as examples of mutashabihat,  let me state another two verses (Yousuf Ali translation);

(Allah) Most Gracious is firmly established on the throne (of authority) (20:5)

He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the waters (11:7)

These two are certainly mutashabihat verses and I am sure you will not disagree with me.  We all know it is the literal interpretation of these verses that causes Fitna as clear form our books of traditions containing many fairy tales related to these verses, however, a person who is rasikuhuna fi-l'ilmi can form an idea and intended meanig of the verses, using intellect and cross checking different verses in Quran.   If seeking interpretation and trying to grasp the hidden meaning of such verses is prohibited, as you seemed to sugest in your comments, I believe even you post explaining the probable meaning of throne in this link is not allowed. http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=495.0 

I do not know if you have written any article on "His Throne was over the waters", however I believe, here also a person who is rasikuhuna fi-l'ilmi can form idea about what does it mean by using intellect and linking the same with other verses like, ‘We made from water every living thing (21:30); Allah has created every animal from water (24:45), etc.  I am not quoting here the corruptions that have crept into our books of traditions due to literal interpreation of Allah's Throne being over the waters.

Mutashabihat verses :  Are we supposed not to pursue?

Bro.Joseph Islam, I noticed you mentioning at a few places with strong argument that according to Quran Mutashabihat verses shall not be pursued.  Again I think you are discussing the point in a different angle.   Let me discuss the point in a different angle.

In verse 2:26 it is said that Allah explains certain things through minor similitude’s, even that of a mosquito.  It is further mentioned in the verse that the unbelievers react to this saying 'what is this similitude?' And it is strongly implied in the verse that the believers reach the truth by thinking and reflection.   Does it mean that, since it is the character of unbelievers to ask a question “what is this similitude” no one should contemplate or try to understand the meaning?  I believe it is not the positive question earnestly seeking to understand the intended meaning that is prohibited here, but asking questions with an intention to cause fitna without the intention to learn.   I believe it is the same concern that is expressed in 074:031 (part) "...and the disbelievers and those in whose hearts is a disease may say "What does God intend by this example (Arabic: mathalan)?"   It is not a positive question that they ask. They ask the question to create fitna without any earnest interest to now the real meaning.  We all know Quran at several places encourage us to think and contemplate over the verses of the Quran and one of the qualities of Muslims is even mentioned as those who do not blindly fall upon the verses deaf dumb.

“God propounds parables الْأَمْثَالَ* unto men, so that they might bethink themselves [of the truth]” (14:25) also 24:35  (*Note the same word mathalan used in 74:31)

THUS, INDEED, have We propounded unto men all kinds of parables in this Qur'ān, so that they might bethink themselves   مِنْ كُلِّ مَثَلٍ (39:27) Also (17:89, 18:54; 30:58; 47:3)

And [all] such parables الْأَمْثَالُ We propound unto men, so that they might [learn to] think (59:21).

You might raise again a point again here.  How come Quran says 3:7, (I quote in part translated by Muhammed Asad), “Now those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth go after that part of the divine writ which has been expressed in allegory, seeking out [what is bound to create] confusion, and seeking [to arrive at] its final meaning [in an arbitrary manner]….”

I think the problem highlighted here is people who have زَيْغٌ in their heart seeking interpretation (تَأْوِيلِهِ  وَابْتِغَاءَ) such verses, not seeking interpretation by الْعِلْمِ فِي وَالرَّاسِخُونَ.  It is said at another place in Quran “Valamma zaahu Azzahallahu quloobuhum” meaning when they turned away; Allah turned their hearts away from the truth.  (People who follow secondary sources as truth an example).  People who have زَيْغٌ in their heart can be also ordinary people who have no proper knowledge about different aspects and teachings of the Quran. If such people start to interpret those verses it will be fitna for sure.  One may ask how come الْفِتْنَةِ ابْتِغَاءَ is applicable here.  I think it need not necessarily mean a deliberate intention to cause Fitna.  Only a kaafir or a hypocrite will deliberately intend to create a Fitna as such.  The fact is that someone is mislead by someone cannot be raised as an excuse from responsibility and therefore الْفِتْنَةِ ابْتِغَاءَ will be applicable even though there is no deliberate intention.  That is why on the Day of Judgment when the mislead will say to Allah to give double punishment for those who caused them to mislead, the response from Allah would be that everyone will have double punishment, one for doing wrong and the other for misleading those who came after them!

Assuming your explanation, pursuing mutashabihat verses is prohibited according to Quran is true, it will create another issue.  It will create a need to have a list of mutashabihat verses to avoid committing a wrong and disobeying Allah’s command.   Is there any list mutashabihat verses as such?

Mutashabihat : Number 19

There is only one point I want to make here.  Even you have mentioned in your explanation, I quote “There is no other purpose advanced, in that it either represents a code of any particular kind, or instructs believers to search for the number's significance and hidden meaning”.  Even in your statement it is implied that, may be at a future time the mystery of this code might be revealed.  Let us just ignore Rashad, someone who claimed messenger-ship, who created doubts about two verses, who created a cult in Islam obsessed with number 19 whereby knowingly or unknowingly trying to make people away from the real teachings of the Quran.  One thing is for sure, the mystery of this code is something which can further strengthen the convinction of the believers as mentioned in 74:31, may be someone who is rasikuhuna fi-l'ilmi will find the mystery of this code at some other stage in future.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Islamist,

May peace be with you.

Since you have differences of opinion regarding hands of Allah / face of Allah as examples of mutashabihat, 

Dear brother, with utmost respect, I feel that you have once again completely misunderstood me. I also feel that you have not read the article that I shared with you on this matter which clearly addresses this matter.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/mutashabih%20FM3.htm

To reiterate, in my humble view these are not 'mutashabih' verses. We must look at our definitions of the term 'mutashabih'. As I stated in my article, ‘mutashabih’ as a contrasted term to ‘muhkam’ in verse 3:7 would be best understood as ‘obscure, unclear, dubious or ambiguous’ and not allegorical. These verses would not be the focus of the Book. This also has little to do with literal or metaphorical interpretations. In other words, a verse could be clear and fundamental (muhkam) but have a 'metaphorical' interpretation.

In the example you have quoted, these are clear verses which from a Quran's perspective and as I respectfully demonstrated, should not be read literally (i.e. they should be read metaphorically). Therefore, your opinion on the verse (i.e. that it should be read as metaphorical) is the same as my own. We are in agreement on this. The difference is that you call this verse 'mutashabih' (obscure) and I call it 'muhkam' but render its interpretation as 'metaphorical' like you do. Please try to understand this point.

Literal or metaphorical interpretation has little to do with 'matashabih' (obsure verses). Please can I once again respectfully ask you to give my humble view full consideration and understanding. Otherwise we will be talking at cross purposes.

In verse 2:26 it is said that Allah explains certain things through minor similitude’s, even that of a mosquito. 

As mentioned above, I respectfully feel that you have misunderstood my understanding of 'matashabih'. 'Mutashabih' and 'mathal' are two different concepts. Once again, please can I humbly ask you to read the article where I have expounded the difference between something which is 'mutashibih' and another, a 'mathal'.  'Mutashabih' are to be avoided and 'mathal' are to be pondered upon. As I mentioned in the article, "If there is a 'mathal' that God cites but does not want believers to pursue, He makes this absolutely clear in the Quran itself. For example the 'mathal' in verses 74:30-31 regarding the number '19' has been cited by implication as one not to be pursued.". In the article, I have cited 34 clear examples of 'mathal' which have been propounded for us to ponder on.  I feel that you have inadvertently conflated the two concepts 'mutashabih' and 'mathal'.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/mutashabih%20FM3.htm


In summary, I understand that:

(1) We agree that some verses should be read as 'metaphorical' (i.e. not literal) (e.g. like the ones you have shared).
The difference: You define them as 'mutashabih' (obscure) and hence metaphorical. I define them as 'muhkam' yet with a metaphorical purport.

(2) We agree that a 'mathal' should be pondered upon.
The difference: I sense you somewhat conflate the concept of 'mathal' with 'mutashabih'. I clearly argue a distinction in the two terms and concepts.


I hope this helps, God willing.

With utmost respect,

Your brother in faith,
Joseph

[islamist]

Salaam!

Bro.Joseph Islam,

One quick question with utmost respect.  You commented earlier, "In my humble opinion, an example of 'mutashabih' verses are 74:30-31 with regards the number 19".   And also you mentioned that "'Mutashabih' and 'mathal' are two different concepts.  Can you tell me why the word مَثَلًا Arabic: mathalan is used in 74:31 in relation to number 19?

074:031 (part) "...and the disbelievers and those in whose hearts is a disease may say "What does God intend by this example (Arabic: mathalan)?"

Salam

[Joseph Islam]

No problem dear brother 

'Mathal', simply means a likeness which is given in the form of a parable or similitude. As I respectfully shared in my article and the post above, when God doesn't want one to probe a particular 'parable' (mathal), He makes this absolutely clear as He has done in verses 74:30-31 which provides the exception.

Hence, such a parable (mathal) would be 'obscure' and would fall under the scope of 'mutashabih'. However, they do not necessarily have to be the same concept or have the same meaning.

For example, in English, 'obscure' and 'similitude' are two different words and concepts with different meanings. All similitudes do not have to be 'obscure'. However, a particular similitude can be obscure.

Hence, just because God has used the word 'mathal' in 74:31, does not mean that this particular 'mathal' needs to be pondered. I trust that you can see this point However, there are numerous other parables / similitudes that God has propounded in the Quran that are clearly cited so they are pondered.

I hope that helps, God willing.
Joseph.

[islamist]

No problem dear brother 

'Mathal', simply means a likeness which is given in the form of a parable or similitude. As I respectfully shared in my article and the post above, when God doesn't want one to probe a particular 'parable' (mathal), He makes this absolutely clear as He has done in verses 74:30-31 which provides the exception.

Salaam!

Insha Allah I will re-read your articles and posts later. Thanks for sharing your views.

One important point of difference I notice in your analysis and my analysis is this.  You are saying "when God doesn't want one to probe a particular 'parable' (mathal), He makes this absolutely clear as He has done in verses 74:30-31 which provides the exception".  You are referring  "...and the disbelievers and those in whose hearts is a disease may say "What does God intend by this example?"  I do not think this is a general prohibition to probe the 'parable'.   The objection raised by disbelievers and hypocrites, who do not believe Quran as a Divine Writ, as to what Allah actually mean by giving such parables and raising questions at Allah's motive for using such parables, can not be compared to a sincere believer probing the meaning of the parable. 

To make my point more clear; verse 2:26 mentions about Allah explaining certain things through parables through out the Quran.  It this verse it  states the general nature of those who reject the faith "but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this parable?"    So everytime a parable is mentioned in the Quran, those who reject the faith come up and ask 'what does Allah mean by this parable?'.  It is clear their motive is raising objections.  I think it is not proper to compare an objection raised by someone who reject the faith/ hipocrite pointing finger at Allah’s motives for using such parables with a sincere believer probing to understand what does that parable mean in order to strengthen his conviction.

Anyhow, I will go through your articles again some other stage.   

[Joseph Islam]

Ws Islamist.

With respect my dear brother in faith, what value is my perspective if you do not read all my supporting evidence in the articles that I am consistently sharing with you? Otherwise, how will you be able to grasp the full remit of my response? Therefore, thank you for agreeing to read my supporting evidence in due course. 

Instead, I feel we will be wasting both our time discussing this issue despite you having solicited my humble opinion.

I feel that I have now exhausted my views on this topic with the supporting evidence I have humbly shared.

Therefore, may I with respect, please offer this post as my last to you on this topic.

Your brother in faith,
Joseph. 


PS: You say "You are referring  "...and the disbelievers and those in whose hearts is a disease may say "What does God intend by this example?". Dear brother, this is not the only reason I assert that this parable is not to be pursued. Unfortunately, you have assumed my position. (a.ka. a straw man). I have detailed my reasons in a dedicated article why I feel this parable is not to be pursued. This is once again the reason why I shared my articles in response to your question so that I could present you with a comprehensive response. Therefore with respect, your example of 2:26 is non sequitur.

[islamist]

PS: You say "You are referring  "...and the disbelievers and those in whose hearts is a disease may say "What does God intend by this example?". Dear brother, this is not the only reason I assert that this parable is not to be pursued. Unfortunately, you have assumed my position. (a.ka. a straw man). I have detailed my reasons in a dedicated article why I feel this parable is not to be pursued. This is once again the reason why I shared my articles in response to your question so that I could present you with a comprehensive response. Therefore with respect, your example of 2:26 is non sequitur.

Salaam Bro. Joseph Islam,

Let me say again, I hope to re-read your articles and posts again.  I admit I had only a quick reading and you may remember I even posted in one of my posts above your comments from your article.   There were several links and I will check also if I missed any.

Please also get clarified.  I already know it is not the only reason for your assertion for this parable is not to be pursued.  You also rely on the 3:7 to substantiate the view which is based on the reading of the verse, only Allah can know the interpretation of mutashabihat verse (without including rasihoona fil ilmi).  However,  if you understand that it is the literal interpretation of mutashabihat verse that is prohibited in 3:7, there will be no problem and no contradiction.  Let me explain.

In verse 3:7 (please give attention), it is NOT saying that those who have “perversity” (I prefer Mohamed Asad meaning “whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth”) in their heart interpret mutashabihat verses. What is mentioned is the verse is that such people take فَيَتَّبِعُونَ mutashabihat “seeking to interpret” and “seeking to create fitna”.  According to me, the strong implication here is taking the mutashabihat in literal sense for the purpose of interpretation.  It is such an attitude that will create Fitna, because the literal meaning is not the one intended by Allah.   

PS:
al-Rahmanu `ala al-`arsh istawa (20:5)
I have done google search and I notice that there is consensus of opinion among all scholars that the above is a mutashabihat verse including classical scholars.
• Imam Shafi`i (d. 204) in his small treatise entitled al-Fiqh al-akbar said: "Whoever says: al-Rahmanu `ala al-`arsh istawa, it is said to him: This verse is one of the mutashabih (ambiguous matter) concerning which one is perplexed to give an answer, and the same is said regarding similar verses." 
• Others who list the verse of istiwa' among the mutashabihat are Imam Malik ibn Anas, the fuqaha' of Madina, and al-Asma`i according to Abu Mansur `Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi in Usul al-Din

[Joseph Islam]

Once again dear brother, it is how we define 'mutashabih' which is at the crux of this matter.  To once again reiterate, I have detailed my view of this term from what I deem is a Quranic perspective.

However, with respect, I never intended to get into a debate.

You asked a simple clarification from me and I gave my perspective with supporting evidence which you confess with honesty, that you have only subjected to a 'quick reading'.

Please can we conclude with sharing our views on this matter as I feel we have exhausted our perspectives or at least, I certainly have.

JazakAllah Khair and As-salamu alaykum

Joseph. 

[QM Moderators Team]

Dear Islamist.

Your last post has been removed.

May we kindly remind you of the forum policy 2(c) and 2(d). You have asked for br. Joseph's opinion to which he has responded with his supporting material concluding his discussion with you on the matter.

Please can you observe the forum policy and not contentiously continue the discussion for the sake of an argument.

We as moderators have seen many discussions which start off innocently as clarifications which turn into heated contentious debates. We do not tolerate such discussions on this academic forum and will curtail discussions which seem unnecessarily contentious to us.

You can simply agree to disagree or find platforms which allow for full blown heated debates. However, as a respected member of this forum, we enjoy your presence here and will hope that you will take note of our kind request.

Thanks

This thread is now closed.