9:61

[Saba]

Salaam Islamist, why would Allah (swt) use straight forward language but imply something else? Sorry, i don't agree with your interpretations.

You say 

In verse 28:10 it only means that the mother of Moses had complete Trust in Allah.  She knew that whatever she had been promised would be happening ultimately.  Ofcourse she was very much distressed but ultimately her faith and trust in Allah strengthened her and made her not to disclose.

I find that is not what the Quran says, but simply your interpretations.

For example, I would suspect you would not agree that Allah (swt) intervened even in the following case to answer Moses (saw) prayer?

(Moses) said: My Lord! relieve my mind, And ease my task for me; And loose a knot from my tongue, That they may understand my saying. Appoint for me a henchman from my folk, Aaron, my brother. Confirm my strength with him And let him share my task, That we may glorify Thee much And much remember Thee. Lo! Thou art ever Seeing us. (20.25-35)

He said: Thou art granted thy request, O Moses. (20.036)

How did Allah (swt) intervene here?  Thanks Saba 

[HOPE]

Salaam Islamist,

In verse 28:10 it only means that the mother of Moses had complete Trust in Allah.  She knew that whatever she had been promised would be happening ultimately.  Ofcourse she was very much distressed but ultimately her faith and trust in Allah strengthened her and made her not to disclose. 

28:7 mentions the revelation received that the mother should cast him in the river when the time comes.  At this point she already has her faith and  the baby was let go based on total reliance of God.  She did not know the baby would be picked up by the Pharaoh's family. then fuādu ummi mūsā fārighan (empty) To be more poetic we can say (A heavy weight of anxiety was lifted or removed from the heart) Then strengthening comes to prevent her from disclosing out of joy.

This is my understanding of course and Allah knows best.

 

[islamist]

Salaam Islamist, why would Allah (swt) use straight forward language but imply something else? Sorry, i don't agree with your interpretations.

Wassalam,

I respect your decision to disagree.

I would appreciate if you comment also why  Allah (swt) used straight forward language but imply something else in the following verse I mentioned earlier?

3:152 (in part), "....after He had shown you that for which ye long.  Some of you desired the world, and some of you desired the Hereafter. Therefore He made you flee from them....."

I can quote many. Just for another example;

8:17  It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's.

For example, I would suspect you would not agree that Allah (swt) intervened even in the following case to answer Moses (saw) prayer?

(Moses) said: My Lord! relieve my mind, And ease my task for me; And loose a knot from my tongue, That they may understand my saying. Appoint for me a henchman from my folk, Aaron, my brother. Confirm my strength with him And let him share my task, That we may glorify Thee much And much remember Thee. Lo! Thou art ever Seeing us. (20.25-35)

He said: Thou art granted thy request, O Moses. (20.036)

Excuse me.   The point of discussion was not a theological discussion on whether Allah intervenes or not.  The point I conveyed was this.  When Allah says He strengthened the prophet it does not necessarily mean Allah directly interfered and rescued the prophet.  And also to believe that at times the prophet had to be strengthened to avoid inclining towards something wrong, it would even negate the very strong instruction from Allah to the prophet  “do not incline towards, nor rely upon, those who are bent on evildoing" (11:113).  And also it is clearly mentioned in verse 68:9 that the prophet is not a person who can easilyl get inclined to others. “They would like thee to be soft [with them],  so that they might be soft [with thee]”(68:9).  If we believe that the prophet had to be strengthened at times, it would mean that the prophet was incapable to practice the directions contained in verse 11:113 without the outside assistance from Allah.  Even any individual can claim...Ok I inclined to something wrong because I did not get any outside assistance from Allah like prophet got.  Don't you understand the seriousness of the issues here??

Take care always

Islamist

[Saba]

Salaam Islamist

Don't you understand the seriousness of the issues here??

I certainly do, but I don't mean to be rude but I think for anyone to twist the interpretations of the verses because they can't reconcile verses would be a greater issue, whether it is you, me or anyone else.

And also it is clearly mentioned in verse 68:9 that the prophet is not a person who can easilyl get inclined to others. “They would like thee to be soft [with them],  so that they might be soft [with thee]”(68:9).  If we believe that the prophet had to be strengthened at times, it would mean that the prophet was incapable to practice the directions contained in verse 11:113 without the outside assistance from Allah. 

I think this shows a problem and that you have been incapable of reconciling the verses hence you have used your interpretation to resolve the problem in your mind. In my view, you have completely misrepresented 11:113. No where does it say in either 11:113 or 68:9 that the Prophet (saw) could not incline. Otherwise what is the purpose of the threats that God gives the Prophet?

Verses 17.74-75 clearly show that he could and the verse clearly say in Arabic that he had to be strengthened. Why?


Are you suggesting that we deny the clear Arabic of the Quran?

"thabbatnāka"   WE HAD STRENGTHENED YOU

and what is the point of the threat of punishment if he could not incline and didn't need strengthening? Please answer this point as you have not addressed this to my knowledge.

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=17&verse=75


That is why I say clear Arabic. The Arabic says what it says. However, it seems you are not willing to accept what is says and therefore offer a different interpretation. No hard feelings. Just my view on your position.

Thanks. Saba

[islamist]

In my view, you have completely misrepresented 11:113. No where does it say in either 11:113 or 68:9 that the Prophet (saw) could not incline.

Wassalam,

I did not say it was humanly impossible for prophet to incline.  Verse 11:13 instructs the prophet not to incline towards and not to rely upon those who are bent on evildoing.  And verse 68:9 states that the disbelievers would like prophet to be soft in dealing with them. Therefore, there is no question of prophet going against the instruction of Allah.  The verse 68:9 further confirms that the prophet was practicing the instruction contained in 11:13 through out his life.   

and what is the point of the threat of punishment if he could not incline and didn't need strengthening? Please answer this point as you have not addressed this to my knowledge.

This question is valid if I said it was humanly impossible for prophet to incline.  You are in a wrong presumption that prophet was in need of extra outside support from Allah for not inclining towards them.

That is why I say clear Arabic. The Arabic says what it says. However, it seems you are not willing to accept what is says and therefore offer a different interpretation.

Remaining consistent on this view, without going beyond what the clear Arabic states, if you can explain just the two verses I quoted in my last post, (3:152 & 8:17) I shall withdraw my comments. 

No hard feelings. Just my view on your position.

I too have no hard feelings. We need to consider this as a learning process.

Sincerely,

Islamist

[Saba]

Salaam Islamist.

It seems you have edited your post when I was typing a response (the notification I received had a different comment as I'm sure other readers with notifications would have have noted) and then you retracted your statement "The verse 68:9 further confirms that it was not the nature of prophet to incline towards anyone. ".

Otherwise I would have asked you clearly where in verse 68:9 does it say that it was not in the nature of the Prophet to incline towards anyone?  However, this first comment you made seems to show me the reason why you are actually finding it so difficult to reconcile the verses as you do not believe that its in the Prophet's nature to incline!

Now it seems you have replaced this comment with

"The verse 68:9 further confirms that the prophet was practicing the instruction contained in 11:13 through out his life."

Now please can you prove this statement.

Yes indeed, let us learn together but let us all be honest about the deep convictions and beliefs we have inside us which we don't want to challenge.

Thanks, Saba

[islamist]

Salaam Islamist.

It seems you have edited your post when I was typing a response (the notification I received had a different comment as I'm sure other readers with notifications would have have noted) and then you retracted your statement "The verse 68:9 further confirms that it was not the nature of prophet to incline towards anyone. ".

Otherwise I would have asked you clearly where in verse 68:9 does it say that it was not in the nature of the Prophet to incline towards anyone?  However, this first comment you made seems to show me the reason why you are actually finding it so difficult to reconcile the verses as you do not believe that its in the Prophet's nature to incline!

Now it seems you have replaced this comment with

"The verse 68:9 further confirms that the prophet was practicing the instruction contained in 11:113 through out his life."

Now please can you prove this statement.

Yes indeed, let us learn together but let us all be honest about the deep convictions and beliefs we have inside us which we don't want to challenge.

Thanks, Saba

Wassalam,

Actually I consider your objection as very silly

I was actually replacing the comment with something more clearer.   It does not mean I did not agree with the comment I edited.  I do not think there is a big difference between my comment,  'it was not the nature of the prophet to incline towards anyone' and 'the prophet was  practicing the instruction contained in the verse 11:113 because what the verse 68:9 clearly stating is that, let me quote two translations, They would like thee to be soft [with them], so that they might be soft [with thee] (M.Asad); Their desire is that thou shouldst be pliant: so would they be pliant (Yousuf Ali).  The point is very clear.  They want prophet to be soft, but the prophet is not vulnerable.  If the prophet had been already soft with them, it would not have mentioned in 68:9 that they desire the prophet to be soft.   Therefore, this makes it clear that the prophet had been practicing the instruction contained in 11:113.   It does not require any further proof.

By the way, I would like to friendly remind you that you have not touched one of the main points in my previous post regarding clear Arabic words in the Quran.

Regards,

Islamist

[Saba]

Actually I find your accusation very silly

Please don't insult me with a smile. I take offence to tactics such as that! How would you feel if I said that I actually find your whole approach really silly and ended it with a smile? So please refrain!

Now as you don't feel that you disagree with your earlier comment. Can you then please provide evidence for this earlier comment of yours.

"The verse 68:9 further confirms that it was not the nature of prophet to incline towards anyone. "

And please this time, can you not skirt the issue.

Thanks. Saba

[QM Moderators Team]

Can we please remind all participants to remain civil with each other or this thread will be suspended. Thanks.

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Islamist,


God can intervene and give strength whenever He wills. Not everything is about the 'Law Of Returns'.

The verses you cite are ones where God instructs the prophet to do things in a certain way, especially when others around him expect him to behave differently.

However the verses Saba talked about are when God intervenes. You say that God can't externally influence the prophet when 'he would have inclined' but He did the same for prophet Joseph :

12.24

"She verily desired him, and he would have desired her if it had not been that he saw the argument of his Lord. Thus it was, that We might ward off from him evil and lewdness. Lo! he was of Our chosen slaves."


God obviously put some thoughts into the mind of Joseph in order to keep him away from temptation.

Regarding the 'Law Of Returns'..how did this 'law' tell the mother of Moses what to do with him as a baby and that her son would become a messenger?

28:7

"And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers."


God gives instructions, also intervenes and some things happen as a result what our 'hands have earned'. There is not one rule for everything.

[islamist]

So please refrain!

Salaam!

I am sorry.   I won't repeat again.  I really did not intend to cause any hurt.  It was 'my editing' which made you not to ask a 'good question' (according to you) that made me to smile.  But I gave a wrong impression. Sorry. 

Can you then please provide evidence for this earlier comment of yours.

According to me it is the implication of verse 68:9.  It was not the nature/ character / personality  of the prophet to incline.  The case otherwise is scary even to just think.  Evidence is needed (logically) to disprove the statement not to prove.  Therefore, the onus is on you to disprove my statement with evidences.   

PS: The verse 11:113 must be read together with “I follow nothing except what is revealed to me. I fear, were I to disobey my Lord, the punishment of a Dreadful Day“(10:16)

Kind regards

Islamist

[Saba]

Salaam Islamist,

I am sorry.   I won't repeat again.  I really did not intend to cause any hurt.  It was 'my editing' which made you not to ask a 'good question' (according to you) that made me to smile.  But I gave a wrong impression. Sorry. 

No problem and thanks. Let us then move on 

Evidence is needed (logically) to disprove the statement not to prove.  Therefore, the onus is on you to disprove my statement with evidences.   

Ok - this is where I very much disagree with you. It is in the human nature to incline and Prophet's have been shown the potential to at times incline. You are taking the position of an extraordinary human characteristic despite the Qur'an clearly stating the potential of the Prophet's inclination in clear Arabic terms as I have already shared in this thread. Therefore, the proof burden is very much with you to prove and not me.

Therefore, I await your evidence.

Thanks, Saba. 

[islamist]

You say that God can't externally influence the prophet when 'he would have inclined'

Wa' alaikumussalam

Kindl note, I did not say God can't externally influence the prophet.  My position was God did not externally influence the prophet when Allah said He strengthened the prophet.   Allah attributes to Himself (as though He himself is doing the actions) if an event ends up into its natural consequences.  I cited an example (out of many) to make clear the point, verse 3:152 (in part); "....after He had shown you that for which ye long.  Some of you desired the world, and some of you desired the Hereafter. Therefore He made you flee from them....".   Here Allah mentions about certain actions as if He himself is doing.  Do you think here Allah interfered in the war externally?  Please note, the question is not whether Allah can interfere (please refer 3:165 before commenting).

Kind regards

Islamist

[islamist]

Ok - this is where I very much disagree with you. It is in the human nature to incline and Prophet's have been shown the potential to at times incline. You are taking the position of an extraordinary human characteristic despite the Qur'an clearly stating the potential of the Prophet's inclination in clear Arabic terms as I have already shared in this thread. Therefore, the proof burden is very much with you to prove and not me.

Therefore, I await your evidence.

Salaam!

With utmost respect, I kindly request you to substantiate first your point "it is the human nature to incline" with supporting verses and any evidences.  You are asking me to prove something based on your assumption.   

Only one thing I want to tell you at the moment. Those who do not believe in Allah and those have no faith in the truthfulness of Allah's laws and those who have no Eman may get inclined, certainly not Allah's sincere believers.   Here is the evidence.

(Iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,  except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified.   (Allah) said: "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.  "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee." (15:39-42)

Therefore, please think, whether it would require Allah to externally interfere to rescue the Prophet from getting inclined to something wrong. Note: according to the above verse no sincere believer can inclined - then think about prophet whether he is likely to get inclined.  We fail to appreciate the Quranic verses in the correct sense.  This is the problem.

Regards,

Islamist

[islamist]

@Truth Seeker

I would like to make one comment also.  Please note the following verse;

And We strengthened their hearts with patience, when they stood up and said: Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth; we will by no means call upon any god besides Him, for then indeed we should have said an extravagant thing. (18:14)

Let me ask.  Is there any need to interpret that when the young men of the cave stood up and said so and so Allah externally interfered and strengthened their hearts? The strengthening of their heart was the natural consequences of their declaration of complete faith in Allah and firm conviction.  But Allah attributed it to Himself because it was the result of Law of returns.   Similarly another verse "When they turned away, Allah turned their hearts away" 9:127.  This does not mean Allah externally interfered and turned away their hearts.  I Hope the point I am making is clear to you and I do hope at least you will consider the possibility of this understanding when Allah states about strengthening the prophet.