9:61

[Saba]

Salaam Islamist,

With utmost respect, I kindly request you to substantiate first your point "it is the human nature to incline" with supporting verses and any evidences.  You are asking me to prove something based on your assumption.   

Humans are created weak (4.28) and I am truly surprised that you would even ask evidence for this.

What is the point of the Qur'an if it not to guide? The Qur'an is meant for both humans and messengers. Messengers needed guidance as much as other believers. Remember, I am only talking about the potential to make errors of judgement and not outright following satan.....therefore the verse you quoted (15.39-42) are not relevant for the purposes we are discussing.

Like I said earlier, I feel that in your mind you cannot accept the potential of messengers to make at time errors of judgement. You will therefore seek to confirm your beliefs from any verses to prove your point even though there are clear verses which challenge your understanding.

Why did the Prophet make errors of judgement where Allah (swt) had to admonish him? Surely I don't have to quote all these verses to you.

The potential is there, please consider this. The messengers are also under trial like other believers and sometimes can make errors of judgement.

"and thou didst fear mankind whereas Allah hath a better right that thou shouldst fear Him." (33.37)

What happened here?

Why did the Prophet fear people when he should have feared Allah (swt)? Did he not have taqwa or was it simply a slip / a slight error of judgement?

Why were believers asked in the following verse to follow the Prophet in what is right?

"and that they will not disobey you in any just matter (or what is right / good)" (60.12)

Why did the Qur'an simply not say follow the Prophet in everything?

Does that mean that at times the Prophet's judgement could be questioned?

We fail to appreciate the Quranic verses in the correct sense.  This is the problem.

Without meaning to sound rude at all, I could say that this is exactly what is happening in your understanding. Certainly at the moment you have not provided any clear evidence.

Thanks. Saba.   

[islamist]

Salaam Saba,

With all respect, in order not to deviate from the issue under discussion, if you have a case it is the nature of a true believer to incline, we shall continue our discussion and I shall provide you evidences.  The whole discussion is centric around "Believers".  This is just to ensure that we are focused on the point.  Kindly let me know if you have such a case. 

Also one more thing.  You are just focusing and strongly countering my comment, 'it was NOT the nature of the prophet to incline'.  Do you have a case that it was the nature of the prophet to incline (considering also prophet was a firm believer and prophet had complete trust in Allah).  Kindly state explicitly this point so that I can understand clearly your stand.

Kind regards,

Islamist

[islamist]

"And had We not given you (Muhammad) strength, you would nearly have inclined to them a little. In that case We would have made you taste double portion (of punishment) in this life, and double (punishment) after death: and moreover you would have found none to help you against Us!"  17:074-75

According to me, there is one point we all should note in the above verse.   Mentioning about 'double punishment' for the prophet makes it clear that it was prophet's own individual decision/ action as a result of his complete faith in Allah and Eman (without interference from outside) that made the prophet not to get inclined (so warning makes sense here).  If there was outside interference (which made the prophet not to incline), there is absolutely no reason why the prophet should be warned (since outside Allah's interference means there was no question of prophet getting inclined to them in anycase).

[Saba]

Salaam Islamist

With all respect, in order not to deviate from the issue under discussion, if you have a case it is the nature of a true believer to incline, we shall continue our discussion and I shall provide you evidences.  The whole discussion is centric around "Believers".  This is just to ensure that we are focused on the point.  Kindly let me know if you have such a case. 

With all respect to you too sir, if I give you a verse where it clearly shows that the Prophet could incline such as 17:74-75 in clear Arabic speech, you refuse to accept it. Then you start applying complex interpretations and then in the end reject it because it does not fit with your philosophy. What am I meant to do? In my view, anyone unbiased reading this verse will clearly realize that the potential was there otherwise the threat of punishment makes no sense.

So it seem to me pointless to make you see evidence, because without sounding rude, you do not want to see it or accept it.

If you want to apply your own criteria on clear verses then that is up to you. Please don't accept others to blindly accept it. For me, your argument is very very weak and I mean that without meaning to be rude.

What else am I meant to do?

Saba

[HOPE]

Salaam Saba and Islamist,

What else am I meant to do?

Nothing sister.  You tried and the example you provided 17:74-75 says it all.

Islamist, The Quraish had wished to turn the prophet away from his mission by applying temptations as well as force and had "WE" not made you firm thabbatnāka, strengthened you,you would have inclined to them a little.  Making a small concession to compromise even to fulfill a divine mission is not acceptable for God - 5:2 “do not cooperate in sin and transgression”. Two wrongs do not add up to right. His punishment would be doubled: first for his own nafs for not taking responsibility, second for the improper guidance of mankind.  God is not taking chances; protects His rasuls.  After all, they are humans.  Potentiality is in the DNA.

Let us agree to disagree and move on to another issue.

[Saba]

Thank you so much sister Hope. I was losing 'hope'!  and then you came along.  Such an apt name you have! I believe your wisdom is the best thing said in this entire thread.    Saba

[islamist]

Islamist, The Quraish had wished to turn the prophet away from his mission by applying temptations as well as force and had "WE" not made you firm thabbatnāka, strengthened you,you would have inclined to them a little.  Making a small concession to compromise even to fulfill a divine mission is not acceptable for God - 5:2 “do not cooperate in sin and transgression”. Two wrongs do not add up to right. His punishment would be doubled: first for his own nafs for not taking responsibility, second for the improper guidance of mankind.  God is not taking chances; protects His rasuls.  After all, they are humans.  Potentiality is in the DNA.

Let us agree to disagree and move on to another issue.

Salaam Hope,

I agree with you.  Let us agree to disagree.  Thank you for your comments.

Just as a final note, we focused on English translation "strengthened" for thabbatnāka which was primarily because we relied on certain translation.  I notice majority of scholars translated it as making the prophet to stand firm which is consistent with the use of the word in the Quran.  The word "strengthen" gives an impression the prophet was incapable by himself and therefore needed outside interference.  Here is translation by Pikthall & Mohammed Asad.

"And if We had not made thee wholly firm thou mightest almost have inclined unto them a little" (Pikthall)

"And had We not made thee firm [in faith], thou might have inclined to them a little" (M. Asad)

Let us check a few verse from Quran where this word has come.

14:24 أَصْلُهَا ثَابِتٌ  (asluha thabitun)  =  tree, firmly rooted

8:11  وَيُثَبِّتَ بِهِ الْأَقْدَامَ (wayuthabbita bihi alaqdama) = to make firm your steps

14:27 يُثَبِّتُ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِالْقَوْلِ الثَّابِتِ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَفِي الْآخِرَةِ  (Yuthabbitu Allahu allatheena amanoo bialqawli alththabiti fee alhayati alddunya wafee alakhirati) = Thus,] God grants firmness unto those who have attained to faith through the word that is unshakably true in the life of this world as well as in the life to come. (Isn't this firmness that was given to the prophet?)

Thank you all for sharing your views.  If anyone felt anything bad about me, please forgive me.

Assalamu alaikum

Islamist

[Saba]

Firm, strengthened, braced, constant, fortified, steadfast, staunch,  or whatever anyone wants to call it, it doesn't  change a thing.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/17/74/

In the end, something was done to the Prophet which stopped him from inclining. Without seeming to be rude, I feel great effort has been made to alter the straight forward meaning of the text because a particular belief stopped a straight forward reading.

Saba

[QM Moderators Team]

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