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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« on: May 02, 2013, 01:41:02 AM »
Before asking this question I checked all the articles on Quransmessage but could not find any about Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus. Many say he was son Joseph, a carpenter. But it is also believed that he was born as Adam on ther order of Allah " KUN  FAYAQOON" Can some one please enlighten me?  Thanks

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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2013, 02:58:31 PM »
Peace brother Sardar,

"Many say he was son Joseph, a carpenter

There is no proof of this statement in the Quran or the inference of biological linkage with Joseph. Prophet Jesus is only referred to as the son of Mary.

My articles on the site in the main attempt to address misconceptions in traditional thought. Hence, this is the reason why you have not seen a dedicated article covering this issue on the site.

I hope that helps, God willing.
Joseph.
 
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2013, 03:22:13 PM »
Assalam & Thanks for reply. But can you tell me that Jesus was born without father & as per Allah's Will & Order?  Thanks
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2013, 03:36:18 PM »
I have made it clear in my post that I find no reason to challenge the traditional understanding on this matter based on my study of the Quran. Otherwise you would have noted an article on this matter.

With respect, I have nothing more to add to this.

Peace and regards,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline HOPE

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Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2013, 08:35:16 PM »
Peace Sardar,

Quote
But can you tell me that Jesus was born without father & as per Allah's Will & Order?  Thanks

Brother, you, yourself mentioned the verse 3:59 before which says 'the similitude of Jesus with God is like that of Adam'. Both were created by the command of God , not through human procreation.  Can anything happen without Allah's will?

"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Wakas

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Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2013, 09:18:46 PM »
salaam Sardar,

The most common view is that Isa/Jesus was a "virgin birth". Based on my own studies of Quran my view is similar but perhaps with a possible explanation from Quran itself, consider the following:

In terms of the "miraculous" nature, there is some weighting that Mary was hermaphrodite/intersex. This is mainly based on:

So when she delivered she said: "My Lord, I have delivered a female," and God is fully aware of what she delivered, "And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her and her progeny with You from the outcast devil." [3:36]

Also Mary, the daughter of Imran, who maintained her chastity. So We blew into him/it (fee hi) from Our Spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Scripture; and she was of those who were dutiful. [66:12]

And the one who protected her chastity, so We blew into her (fee ha) from Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds. [21:91]

hi = him/it
ha = her

It would still have required a very unique event, but Mary being hermaphrodite/intersex would explain it somewhat. This is my current view.

#####


Background reading:
For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001669.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex

Quote
True Gonadal Intersex. Here the person must have both ovarian and testicular tissue. This may be in the same gonad (an ovotestis), or the person might have one ovary and one testis. The person may have XX chromosomes, XY chromosomes, or both. The external genitals may be ambiguous or may appear to be female or male. This condition used to be called true hermaphroditism. In most people with true gonadal intersex, the underlying cause is unknown, although in some animal studies it has been linked to exposure to common agricultural pesticides.

Complex or Undetermined Intersex Disorders of Sexual Development. Many chromosome configurations other than simple 46, XX or 46, XY can result in disorders of sex development. These include 45, XO (only one X chromosome), and 47, XXY, 47, XXX -- both cases have an extra sex chromosome, either an X or a Y. These disorders do not result in an intersex condition where there is discrepancy between internal and external genitalia. However, there may be problems with sex hormone levels, overall sexual development, and altered numbers of sex chromosomes.

Quote:
An individual that produces exclusively large gametes is female, and one that produces exclusively small gametes is male. An individual that produces both types of gametes is a hermaphrodite; in some cases hermaphrodites are able to self-fertilize and produce offspring on their own, without a second organism.


Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2013, 12:55:51 AM »
Thank you Wakas for further clarification.
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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2013, 10:51:41 PM »
Bro Wakas ,Salam Thanks for telling Virgin Birth but I can not understand "hermaphrodite/intersex "and Background reading.How all these are connected to Virgin Birth Of Jesus? Plesae explain Thanks
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Offline Wakas

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Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2013, 01:30:33 PM »
salaam,

What I am saying is judging by the Quran verses it seems to allow for the possibility that Mary was a hermaphrodite/intersex. Such people can have BOTH sex chromosomes, i.e. X and Y, e.g. XXY, when a non-intersex female only has XX, thus cannot produce a male baby (e.g. Jesus) by herself.

normal:
female: XX (eggs are X)
male: XY (sperm are X or Y, thus the male determines sex of baby)
intersex: variable, e.g. XXY (egg can theoretically have both X and Y, i.e. could be XX, XY, X, defective etc)


If so, then "virgin birth" is theoretically possible according to science. Please read the links I provided.

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2013, 11:16:14 PM »
Apart from your scientific explanation Allah had power to create Jesus by blowing His Rooh!! Right?
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Offline Wakas

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Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 06:04:45 PM »
Of course. That does not negate what I said however.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 07:31:44 PM »
Dear brother Sardar

As-salam alaykum

With a view to corroborate my earlier sentiments in this post, I have published an article recently which I feel provides strong support for the 'virgin' birth.

I feel both your kind self and other respected contributors on this thread such as brother Wakas and sister Hope do not necessarily disagree with this.

THE VIRGIN BIRTH OF PROPHET JESUS (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/virgin-birth%20FM3.htm

I hope this helps, God willing.
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2013, 08:25:44 PM »
Thank you Bro JAI for an Article on Virgin Birth of Jesus which is short and to yhe point.May Allah give you Jazaye Khair.
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Offline optimist

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Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2013, 07:07:42 PM »
THE VIRGIN BIRTH OF PROPHET JESUS (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/virgin-birth%20FM3.htm

I hope this helps, God willing.
Joseph.

Quote
The Quran makes absolutely no attempt to challenge the mainstay Christian understanding resonating the same sentiments verbatim.
 Quran Surah 19
19. He said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, that I may bestow upon you a righteous son."
20. She said: "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?"
21. He said: "So (it will be), your Lord said: 'That is easy for Me: And so that We will make him a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us and it is a matter decreed."

Assalamu alaikum !

I believe the question why Allah did not refute the general Christian belief regarding the birth of Jesus is rather unnecessary.  There could be different reasons (1) To make a strong objection for an issue which is not related the main teachings of Islam is not required and rather unnecessary; (2) There is possibility of people unnecessarily focusing on unimportant issues losing their focus on the main issues; (3)  Such strong objection can make some people not to even consider the truthfulness of the teachings of the Quran (4)  Using such terms and expressions susuptible for different interpretation in such cases, (i) it can attract people towards Islam to study and evaluate its teachings (ii) it is possible for people who apply further thought and contemplation to come to the correct understanding of the verses at a later stage (even if it does not happen, it is not going to affect their faith).  I think this is one of the reasons why Quran is so amazing.  I can tell you couple of such examples from Quran itself.

1. You and I believe in the evolution theory based our own deductions from different verses of the Quran.  However you will agree with me there are several verses in the Quran, which if we take into account in literal sense, they would ’support’ creation story.  My question:  Why Quran did not strongly refute the Christian and the general belief in explicit terms but used such terms and expression susuptible to be interpreted to confirm creation theory? Also the same question in a different way.  Why Quran did not use such terms and expressions which can completely confirm without any doubt the theory of evolution?   

2. You and I believe that the issue of prophet Ibrahim’s preparation to sacrifice his son was based on “a dream” considering it as a definite direction from Allah.  My question: Why in the Quran it is not explicitly mentioned that it was not a divine revelation and why Quran used such expressions like “saddaqat ruiya” and such terms which are susceptible for different interpretations without being very plain and clear?

Quote
To seek support from implicit verses of the Quran such as 3:59 and 6:88 in order to 'imply' a rejection of the mainstay understanding of a community supported by explicit verses remains wholly without warrant.

I can understand your difficulty and inability to explain 3:59 in view of the fact that we believe in Evolution as master plan of Allah for creation.

Quote
The Quran must be allowed to speak and not be wrought into an understanding that supports one's own views. Otherwise, one would become guilty of 'eisegesis' (personal interpretation of a text using one's own ideas) instead of a more critical, objective 'exegesis'.

This I can agree with you and it should be applicable for everyone.  Let us closely look at some of the points related to certain verses.

1.  The traditional translators normally translate verse 19:20 to mean as Mary saying, "How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?"  Actually the translation “unchaste” is not the proper translation in the context.   Mary is actually saying that she has been leading a pious life without allowing anyone to touch her and that she is living like a nun, and the law is that a nun should never marry and she has not broken that law.  The basic meaning of the root word, Beh, ghain, yeh is to exceed the limit.  Bagha alaih is to commit excess against or  on someone: to oppress someone: to be high handed against somebody: and be jealous of someone.  The word has come in relation to committing excesses at different places in Quran, for instance, in verse 2:173, after discussing ‘haram and halal’ in edibles it says: fama-niz tarro ghaira baghin wala a’adin fala isma alaihi in the sense of transgressing the due limit.. It is true in verse 24:33 the word alibgha-o is used for illegal fornication which is equal to transgressing the limit, however, in the context of the verse 19:20 Mary is saying that she has no intention to break the law (and not particularly for fornication) and therefore there is no question of her mating with anyone.  This was during the time when Mary was living a celibate life as a nun, however, when she came to know of the teachings of God, she left the life of a nun and started living a normal life with the child.

2. It was a general custom that among the father and the mother, whoever is more famous, children are addressed and attributed to the person who enjoyed more fame.  Mary had created a revolution by breaking the customs and restrictions imposed by the synagogue and the system of monastery; however, her husband (whose name has come in the bible as yousuf e najjar) did not possess any fame.  This is why the prophet Jesus has been addressed as Ibne-e-maryam.   (In the case of prophet Moses there is a mention of umm-e-moosa.  Also prophet Moses addresses prophet Aron as yabna umma (O son of my mother!)

3. The Quran has presented the life of Mary as a revolutionary life.  The Jews had given the monasterial life of the synagogue a very high position and its customs and restrictions were contrary to Allah’s Deen. In early days, only the monks (male) used to devote themselves for the synagogue, but later the girls also started entering as nuns therein on the condition that girls had to spend their entire life as nun without getting into any marriage alliance with anyone.  The Jewish monks and priests were so powerful those days that only for the confirmation of a death sentence they had to refer it to the roman emperor.    The synagogues were centers of all kinds of debauchery and the virgins were put on the auction block to be sold to the highest bidder for deflowering which is amply evident from the verse in the Quran which it states, “O Mohammad! Neither were you there, when the rabbi’s were fighting inside the temple for Mary’s sponsorship, nor when the lottery was being played to decide that issue.”  Every rabbi wanted to take her in his own personal charge (perhaps to enjoy her virginal charm privately, without sharing it with anyone else). Under such severe and adverse circumstances, Mary broke the man made restrictions and decided to spend a married life as per her will (it may be after knowing about the good news of birth of a son which made her realize the fact that such restrictions imposed in the synagogue is completely against the actual teaching of the religion).    Such a step required great courage and patience in the conditions where she lived.   

4. Allah says in the verse 21:91, ‘We made Miriam role model for the rest of the humanity, for safe-guarding her chastity’.   The term used in the verse is important to notice, which is Ahsanat-frjaha.  The Qur’an further elucidates the point in the verse 66:12 as Ahsanat-frjaha, and this term refers to Miriam guarding her chastity in the fortress of wedlock.   The roots of the word Hasan  ن-ص-ح are ha- sawd-noon. It signifies something unapproachable, preserved and guarded, such as a fortress or a pearl protected within the soft interior of a hard and strong shell, resting at the sealed.   In the Qur’an, this word appears at various places, giving the following meanings with reference to the context:  The married women, wedlock, chaste females and the ones who stay away from what is illegal. Additionally, it symbolizes a ‘marriage lock’ to guard a married woman’s chastity/honor (4:24-25, 5:5, 24:4 and 23). In a wider sense, it points to the safety of the human body with armor, in the battles of medieval times (21:80). This word is also used for storing wheat in a safe place (12:48). Consequently, the word "Hasan" primarily identifies a woman, protecting herself from indecency. It also qualifies the one who guards her virginity before marriage and remains chaste after wedlock, obeying Allah’s sexual code in both pre and post-marital states.     

5. When Mary expressed shock how can she have a son (her celibate position does not allow her to marry any person and it is the biggest hurdle in the matter of her wedding), the answer given to her was this.   “It will happen in accordance with Allah’s law of Kun and Fauakun (it means according to the procreation law). This is Allah’s immutable law for child birth and when any one starts action for something according to His law then the initiation of the process or action starts forthwith.  It is known as Kun   and after set terms and times, when it reaches to its pinnacle of completion is called Fauakun (Fauakun means when a process reaches to its perfection by passing through its various evolution stages)  in Quranic term.’   The term Ka-la-Kazalika- Allah-ho means that this child will bear according to Allah’s laws of procreation. It means you will enter the contract of wedlock with someone and then you will have a son. The same term Quran has been used for Zachariah, when he pleaded to Allah that how come he will have a son due to the fact that his wife’s chronic sterility problem and that he himself  is the stage of advanced age (19:08.).  Allah responded to Zachariah in the term of Ka-la-Kazalika- Allah- Ho yes you will get the son according to our procreation laws.   Please note, Zakariya’s wife’s barrenness was cured (21:90).   Similarly, in verse 51:28-30, the term “Ka-la-Kazalika- Allah- Ho the Quran has used for the wife of Abraham. According to which, even in old age woman can conceive a child if her fertility system is normal and healthy. Therefore the term “Ka-la-Kazalika- Allah- Ho means it will happen according to Allah’s natural law of procreation.

6. After the wedlock, Mary became pregnant with (Jesus) like all other women do, giving birth to children.  In the verse 66:12, the Qur’an has used the expression Fanafakhna-rooh-hunna   and the classical exposition of the expression is, “a spirit was breathed into her”.  However, in the verse 32:7-9, the Qur’an expounds the real meanings of the term Fanafakna-rooh-hunna.   After elucidating different stages of creation, Allah says, “…..He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him  something of His spirit (Fanafakh feehi min roohi).  And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!”.    Here this term signifies  that Allah endows every embryo with all human faculties during its growth in the womb that shapes its individual personality and turns it into a male or a female baby.   To associate this term exclusively for Jesus alone and to explain that a spirit was specifically breathed into Mary alone (as if to show something miraculous is happening in Mary's case) is totally unwarranted.

Regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Virgin Birth of Prophet Jesus PBUH
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2013, 09:51:24 PM »
Wa alaikum assalam Optimist.

You know that you and I have travelled this road before and I was hoping not to keep revisiting what is apparent by now (given our numerous discourses on this forum) a theological impasse.

However, I have taken the liberty to share some comments to your response in red

I believe the question why Allah did not refute the general Christian belief regarding the birth of Jesus is rather unnecessary.  There could be different reasons (1) To make a strong objection for an issue which is not related the main teachings of Islam is not required and rather unnecessary; (2) There is possibility of people unnecessarily focusing on unimportant issues losing their focus on the main issues; (3)  Such strong objection can make some people not to even consider the truthfulness of the teachings of the Quran (4)  Using such terms and expressions susuptible for different interpretation in such cases, (i) it can attract people towards Islam to study and evaluate its teachings (ii) it is possible for people who apply further thought and contemplation to come to the correct understanding of the verses at a later stage (even if it does not happen, it is not going to affect their faith).  I think this is one of the reasons why Quran is so amazing.  I can tell you couple of such examples from Quran itself.

With respect, you have once again not provided one convincing reason to the fundamental question asked. Why does the Quran confirm the Bible narratives and the Christian belief verbatim? I find your reasons most implausible, unduly contentious and without warrant. 

Please allow me to share the verses again for the benefit of other readers. Please note these are explicit verses that are being confirmed.

Luke 1 (part) (KJV)
 
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
 
34 "Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
 
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee..." (part)
 
The Quran makes absolutely no attempt to challenge the mainstay Christian understanding resonating the same sentiments verbatim.

Quran Surah 19
 
19. He said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, that I may bestow upon you a righteous son."
 
20. She said: "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?"
 
21. He said: "So (it will be), your Lord said: 'That is easy for Me: And so that We will make him a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us and it is a matter decreed."

1. You and I believe in the evolution theory based our own deductions from different verses of the Quran.  However you will agree with me there are several verses in the Quran, which if we take into account in literal sense, they would ’support’ creation story.  My question:  Why Quran did not strongly refute the Christian and the general belief in explicit terms but used such terms and expression susuptible to be interpreted to confirm creation theory? Also the same question in a different way.  Why Quran did not use such terms and expressions which can completely confirm without any doubt the theory of evolution?   

With respect dear brother, it is my view that asking questions which are not relevant to the discussion with a view to respond to a fundamental question is not only one of the weakest forms of rebutting an argument, it also does little to further strong academic discussion. We have gone through this exercise many times on this forum dear brother and I really would not like to repeat this.

The position the Quran takes with evolution where it recognises it as a 'process' that God used has little to do with the confirmation verbatim of the previous scriptures and the mainstay beliefs of those that follow them and were present at the time of the Prophet. At times, such as in the case of Prophet Jesus's virgin birth, the Quran confirms the Biblical scriptures and mainstay beliefs of the followers of previous scriptures and in others, it elucidates or contends with it. I presented two clear scriptural passages which are almost verbatim and with respect, you have not provided any convincing evidence against it.

Furthermore, I do not refute the idea of 'creationism' which I understand to mean the religious belief that the Universe is a direct consequence of the creation of a supernatural entity. Evolution is simply a process used by the Almighty Creator.

1.  The traditional translators normally translate verse 19:20 to mean as Mary saying, "How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?"  Actually the translation “unchaste” is not the proper translation in the context.   Mary is actually saying that she has been leading a pious life without allowing anyone to touch her and that she is living like a nun, and the law is that a nun should never marry and she has not broken that law. 

Dear brother, where does the Quran say that? With respect, you have simply passed on a personal interpolation and presented it as a Quranic narrative. With respect, this is wholly unacceptable. The idea of renouncing the world including intimacy is even rebuked in the Quran with the issue of monasticism (57:27). You have basically accepted a Christian tradition and imposed it on the Quranic narrative. Why do you accept isolated Biblical traditions and then reject clear verses from the Bible which are confirmed by the Quran? This would arguably be a most unbefitting an approach for any sincere student of the Quran.

The basic meaning of the root word, Beh, ghain, yeh is to exceed the limit.  Bagha alaih is to commit excess against or  on someone: to oppress someone: to be high handed against somebody: and be jealous of someone.  The word has come in relation to committing excesses at different places in Quran, for instance, in verse 2:173, after discussing ‘haram and halal’ in edibles it says: fama-niz tarro ghaira baghin wala a’adin fala isma alaihi in the sense of transgressing the due limit.. It is true in verse 24:33 the word alibgha-o is used for illegal fornication which is equal to transgressing the limit, however, in the context of the verse 19:20 Mary is saying that she has no intention to break the law (and not particularly for fornication) and therefore there is no question of her mating with anyone.  This was during the time when Mary was living a celibate life as a nun, however, when she came to know of the teachings of God, she left the life of a nun and started living a normal life with the child.

With respect, you have committed a fundamental mistake which sadly leaves your methodology academically exposed. Arabic words have a context. This is a fundamental concern of mine with those such as your kind self that approach the Quran by subjecting a spoken language to simply dictionaries and root word analysis.

The Arabic word 'baghiy' in verse 19:20 has been used in a certain context and in its noun form which has a particular understanding.

Please note how the same word is used only a few verses later.

019.027-28
"Then she came to her people with him, carrying him (with her). They said: O Mary! surely you have done a strange thing. O sister of Aaron! Your father was not a wicked man nor was your mother unchaste (baghiy)"

Also note how the noun 'bigha' is used in verse 24:33 to imply fornication or prostitution.

If according to you, 'baghiy' in this context means a transgression such as participating in intimacy when one has renounced the world, then are you seriously suggesting that based on the above verse Mary's mother also never transgressed the boundaries of intimacy as she was a nun? Then how did Mary's mother conceive Mary?

This was during the time when Mary was living a celibate life as a nun, however, when she came to know of the teachings of God, she left the life of a nun and started living a normal life with the child.

Again, where are you acquiring these interpolations from? Is it Biblical tradition? If so, then with utmost respect brother Optimist, this is a very contradictory approach. You seem to pick and choose from what you deem fit from the Bible but when the Quran confirms a mainstay belief of the Christians almost verbatim, you reject it? This is most unpersuasive and unacceptable.

Sadly, you have continued this approach throughout your other 5 points which makes it really tedious for me to respond and therefore I have declined commentary.

It is clear from our numerous often exhausting discussions on this forum which have in the main left us with a theological impasse that we do not see eye to eye on the matter of God's intervention and the way you interpret many literal passages metonymically.

With respect, hitherto you have not provided me with any convincing arguments for your position. When pressed, I have respectfully found that you have consistently resorted to formulating questions of your own which have little to with addressing the central contention.

Please let us agree to disagree and leave it to the readers to decide.

This will remain a respectful academic contention between us.

No hard feelings intended :)

Regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell