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Offline optimist

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Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2013, 09:29:25 AM »
Of course much more clarification could be given, however I don't see the point since you apriori appear to reject traditional sources.

Salam,

Wherein Ali (r) said what is written in the paper is divine revelation?   The question posed to Ali and the answer given by him is very clear. "Do you have the knowledge of any Divine Inspiration besides what is in Allah's Book?" 'Ali replied, "No, by Him who splits the grain of corn and creates the soul. I don't think we have such knowledge, but we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur'an".   Even from the context, what we can conclude maximum is that there is NO question of any divine revelation outside Quran and the regulations mentioned in the in the written paper were prepared by prophet and his companions in mutual consultation to meet the needs of specific circumstances (based on Ali's own words in the same hadith, "the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur'an").  Can you tell me where is that written paper or the contents of the written paper mentioned by Ali available in the world if it was actually a divine revelation?  Ali would be contradicting his initial comment if the contents of the paper available with him were in fact divine revelation.   And also even assuming what is written in the written paper were divine revelation,  based on the hadith it would mean that it was only what were written on the paper that were divine revelations outside Quran.  THINK.

You comment  "if Ali were truly a Qur'an Only Muslim" is silly because the Quran was the only source of religious guidance for all muslims lived at that time.   As a leader of the community, as a ruler, the prophet may have prohibited many bad practices, like Mut'a, prevailed in the soceity based on general directives contained in the Quran.  It has nothing to do a revelation outside Quran.   Simply, you do not need a wahi/ revelation regarding prophibition of Mu'ta marriage to prohibit it.  It is just like, for instance, an Islamic government in present world prohibiting smoking and drug abuse (considering social factors, health hazards and other factors) and ofcourse based on general directives in the Quran.   Can someone come up with an objection, where is in Quran (or even in hadith) any revelation stating that smoking is specifically prohibited?

Regards
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Bassam Zawadi

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Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2013, 10:05:50 AM »
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but we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur'an". 

That's not a good English translation. If you know Arabic you would know that this is not a good translation of the Arabic:

 أَوْ فَهْمٌ أُعْطِيَهُ رَجُلٌ مُسْلِمٌ، أَوْ مَا فِي هَذِهِ الصَّحِيفَةِ‏.‏

The suitable Arabic translation would be:

or the power of understanding which has been bestowed (by Allah) upon a Muslim or what is (written) in this sheet of paper (with me).'

Seeing that this is the answer to the question "Have you got any book?'" then it becomes clear that it is not only the Qur'an.

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Can you tell me where is that written paper or the contents of the written paper mentioned by Ali available in the world if it was actually a divine revelation?  Ali would be contradicting his initial comment if the contents of the paper available with him were in fact divine revelation.   And also even assuming what is written in the written paper were divine revelation,  based on the hadith it would mean that it was only what were written on the paper that were divine revelations outside Quran.  THINK.

Ali already said the contents (i.e. diyyah, ransom for captives, etc.) and we already know their rulings from other traditions.

There was no need for that document if everything was laid out in the Qur'an. That's the point.... Ali didn't only say "Qur'an" and stay quiet.

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because the Quran was the only source of religious guidance for all muslims lived at that time.

There is no historical evidence to show that.

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As a leader of the community, as a ruler, the prophet may have prohibited many bad practices, like Mut'a, prevailed in the soceity based on general directives contained in the Quran.  It has nothing to do a revelation outside Quran.

And the donkey meat?

How about this tradition from Ali:

Narrated `Ali:
I heard the Prophet saying, "Mary, the daughter of `Imran, was the best among the women (of the world of her time) and Khadija is the best amongst the women. (of this nation). (Bukhari, Book 60, Hadith 103)

How would they know that Khadijah is the best amongst women in this nation in the sight of Allah without revelation in the Qur'an?

Musnad Ahmad narrates 804 narrations from Ali with many of them being authentic. I doubt you will accept if I show you ones that show that he didn't believe in Qur'an Onlyism.

Again, what's the point of your argument. You don't trust in the hadith system. So why are you trying to prove that Ali is on your side by appealing to the hadith? I don't think there is a need to proceed without first clarifying that point.

Offline optimist

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Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2013, 11:09:52 AM »
There was no need for that document if everything was laid out in the Qur'an. That's the point.... Ali didn't only say "Qur'an" and stay quiet
Salam,

Everything was laid out in the Quran does not mean you will find traffic rules in Quran.   The divine revelation is not meant to teach you all the caluses and sub clauses of  different laws and principles.  It is the duty of an Islamic Republic to legislate the clauses and sub-clauses of Qur'an's basic Shari'at laws or principles, according to the social, cultural and geo-political conditions of the time, by mutual consultation. It is precisely because of this, the Messenger was commanded to consult his companions and followers (Qur'an 3:159 & 42:38).   The mechanisms required for a government in the Seventh Century are very different indeed from those required today although the principles are the same. God left the detail to be filled in, and changed, by each generation as conditions may dictate provided always that the principle of 'mutual consultation' laid down by God in the Qur'an is observed.  For instance, a 2.5% zakat tax may be sufficient to meet the demand and the needs of the people during seventh century Arabia, which may not be sufficent to meet the need for an islamic govenment in the present times or in the future.  Hence percentage of Zakat is not mentioned in the Quran does not mean Quran is incomplete.  It is not required.  It is not the intention and plan of Allah to make people work like robots.  They have to use their intelligence and try to find solutions for their problems.  However they shall get all necessary and needed guidelines from Quran. 

By the way, in the company where I work one idiot destroyed a European closet saying that it is against 'Sunnah' of the prophet.  It seems this poor fellow thinks divine revelation means he should be taught even how to defecate!

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Again, what's the point of your argument. You don't trust in the hadith system. So why are you trying to prove that Ali is on your side by appealing to the hadith? I don't think there is a need to proceed without first clarifying that point.

According to you since it is an authentic collection from Bukhari, the fact mentioned in it should be true. I quoted this hadith not to support my claim but to disprove your claim that ahaadith are divine revelation.     I do not need to rely on this hadith from Ali to reject the claim that ahaadith are based on any divine revelation. 

Quote
Narrated `Ali:
I heard the Prophet saying, "Mary, the daughter of `Imran, was the best among the women (of the world of her time) and Khadija is the best amongst the women. (of this nation). (Bukhari, Book 60, Hadith 103)

How would they know that Khadijah is the best amongst women in this nation in the sight of Allah without revelation in the Qur'an?

Excuse me.  Can you first remove all the comments that are put in backets first?. What is provided in brackets are either insertion by compiler himself or the translator.  Do you have a claim that these insertions are also divine revelation? 

The Quran is very clear in 3:42, "'Behold!' the Angel said, 'God has chosen you, and purified you, and chosen you above the women of all nations".   Who gave the permission to the hadith compiler to put in bracket a contradictory statement to say Mary was chosen  as  the best among the women (of the world of her time)?    I completely reject the hadith altogether and therefore I do not need to make any comment.  The hadith does not even merit an analysis and should be thrown into the dustbin.  You must feel ashamed to uphold these garbages as divine revelations.

Regards,
Optimist



The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Bassam Zawadi

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Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2013, 12:31:15 PM »
Seeing you reject the narration from Ali, that means that you have failed in your mission to use Ali from our sources to side with you. It appears that you have only cherry picked the narrations you like (not worthy of my time).

And that hadith doesn't contradict the Qur'anic verse, however it's not related to this thread. If you want to open a new thread, I will answer your concern.

As for the donkey meat, the narration used the word "haram" and not merely "legally forbid". Again, you failed in your attempt to appeal to Ali from our sources.


Thanks and kind regards,

Bassam

Offline optimist

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Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2013, 01:02:24 PM »
Seeing you reject the narration from Ali, that means that you have failed in your mission to use Ali from our sources to side with you. It appears that you have only cherry picked the narrations you like (not worthy of my time).
Salam,

Brother Bassam, I am telling you again; I quoted that hadith not to support my claim that ahaadith are not divine revelations, but to disprove your claim that ahaadith are divine revelation (from your own source and the truthfulness of the hadith you confirm).   


Quote
And that hadith doesn't contradict the Qur'anic verse, however it's not related to this thread. If you want to open a new thread, I will answer your concern.


You are totally blind if you can not find contradiction between Quranic statement regarding Mary as "the women of all nations"   and hadith statement regarding Mary as "of the world of  her time".  I do not need to open another thread to ask this silly question.   Even a child with simple common sense can understand the contradiction here.

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As for the donkey meat, the narration used the word "haram" and not merely "legally forbid". Again, you failed in your attempt to appeal to Ali from our sources.


Your question, based on the premise, " if Ali were truly a Qur'an Only Muslim like yourself. would he have said......" can only prove contradictions between different hadiths.   Again I am telling you I quoted hadith to disprove your claim of ahaadith being divine revelation from your own source.   You will find it difficult to explain the hadith among your own audience.  The hadith quoted from Ali was plain and clear.  The answer given by Ali was NO.   It is your problem to explain the contradiction.  As for me, you have miserably failed to give a clear explanation.  I hope all open minded readers here will agree with me.

Also you should note, rejection of ahaadith as a source for religious guidance DOES NOT MEAN each and every hadith collected by Bukhari and Muslim (or anyone) are fabrications.  Some partial truthful reports may have been preserved in hadith collections (I am not implying such reports should be considered as a source of religious guidance in Islam).  As far as religious guidance is concerned, it should be only the Quran.   

Regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Bassam Zawadi

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Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2013, 01:08:05 PM »
Yes I know you cited Ali against me, but the point remains that you only cherry picked the narration, which you thought would help you instead of looking at all the narrations from Ali, which would have clarified the matter. This is as wrong as one citing one verse from the Qur'an without letting the others clarify the whole ordeal.

As for Mary... the Qur'an says "All nations". That's all. It doesn't say "All nations, which came before, which exist now and which will come in the future".

The hadith clarifies the true meaning. No contradiction.


Thanks,

Bassam

Offline optimist

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Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2013, 01:56:24 PM »
As for Mary... the Qur'an says "All nations". That's all. It doesn't say "All nations, which came before, which exist now and which will come in the future".

The hadith clarifies the true meaning. No contradiction.
Salam,

:)
I thought you will argue that Mary's status limitting to "the world of  her time" is something Hadith compiler kept it in bracket, which is not the original words of the messenger (a fact as per the narration). 

Anyhow, thank you for your clarification as per your understanding for the Quranic reference of Mary as "the women of all nations" to mean only "the women of her time"...!!!  It will be highly appreciated if you can further clarify to me the following points, if you know the information.

(1) When it is said in the hadith you quoted, "Khadija is the best amongst the women (of this nation)" whether this status of Khadija was confined to the period of her time only or it is something applicable to all future generarions till the end of the world.

(2) Do you think, the preferred status of Mary being "the women of all nations" was cut off by the birth of Khadija or this status was taken away immediately after Mary's death.  Since the Quran used a vague and ambiguous words (according to you) as  "women of all nations", the question is important.   It would be good if you can point out any other further clarifying hadiths?

Thanks, kind regards
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Bassam Zawadi

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Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2013, 02:21:57 PM »
Quote
I thought you will argue that Mary's status limitting to "the world of  her time" is something Hadith compiler kept it in bracket, which is not the original words of the messenger (a fact as per the narration). 

The Arabic of the hadeeth says:

خَيْرُ نِسَائِهَا مَرْيَمُ ابْنَةُ عِمْرَانَ، وَخَيْرُ نِسَائِهَا خَدِيجَةُ ‏"‏‏.‏

The best of her women is Maryam son of Imran and the best of her women is Khadija.

So it's quite clear.

That's all it says, I won't dive deeper.


Anyways...

- You were proven wrong that the hadith clearly contradicts the Qur'an. (I didn't see your counter response).

- You cherry picked the narration of Ali that you liked. That is wrong methodology. I see your silence is admission that you were wrong in doing so.

- You were wrong about the "only being in brackets thing". You should have consulted the Arabic first instead of focusing wholly on the English translation.


Thanks,

Bassam

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2013, 02:30:07 PM »
Salaam Bassam,

You are asking what objective should we use to determine what is absurd or not. If you believe, after using your reason and intellect that the Quran is in fact the word of God then you will obviously believe the contents in their entirety.

You point out the miracles in the Quran and make a correlation with the ahadeeth which also contain stories of miracles. This does not mean that the two have equal status.

The Quran is God ordained, whereas the Ahadeeth is man made. The former is infallable and the latter is full of contradictions and ludicrous stories. The Quran is vouchsafed by God and not the Ahadeeth.

You said to Optomist:

Quote
I just want to bring to your attention that it's wrong to cherry pick this hadeeth and ignore the other narrations containing 'Ali. For example, if Ali were truly a Qur'an Only Muslim like yourself would he have said...
and

Quote
I agree with you..... we should first find out God's true word and then determine what is absurd based on that.

We cannot in our quest for truth reject something by claiming it's absurd.

This is why the argument "this hadeeth is for sure not from God because it's absurd" isn't a convincing argument to the traditionalist.


So are you saying that you personally do not cherry pick or only when you are judging a hadeeth against the Quran. Is that the criteria that you use to ascertain whether a hadith is correct or not ?

The problem is that the collectors of Ahadith have so many outrageous and nonsensical narrations that they believe to be 'sahih' in their collections. Are you willing to stand up and say that in this instance they are wrong as their narration is contradicting the Quran ?

Offline optimist

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Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2013, 02:35:36 PM »
- You were wrong about the "only being in brackets thing". You should have consulted the Arabic first instead of focusing wholly on the English translation.

Excuse me!  :o :o

Who posted the hadith initially, me or you????  It was you who posted the hadith putting things in brackets and misrepresenting facts and now you are blaming me!!!!  It is not fair.  I will have to check and I will come back later.  It is a shame!  I quote what you posted in post no.16.

Narrated `Ali: I heard the Prophet saying, "Mary, the daughter of `Imran, was the best among the women (of the world of her time) and Khadija is the best amongst the women. (of this nation). (Bukhari, Book 60, Hadith 103)

Regards
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline optimist

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Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2013, 04:16:27 PM »
The Arabic of the hadeeth says:

خَيْرُ نِسَائِهَا مَرْيَمُ ابْنَةُ عِمْرَانَ، وَخَيْرُ نِسَائِهَا خَدِيجَةُ ‏"‏‏.‏

The best of her women is Maryam son of Imran and the best of her women is Khadija.

So it's quite clear.

That's all it says, I won't dive deeper.
Salam,

Well, I checked.  It is better you don't dive deeper, because you will need another one or two hadiths to explain the hadith.  Poor translators made a mess about it and they made you to ask me a question, "how we know that Khadijah is the best amongst women in this nation in the sight of Allah without revelation in the Qur'an?".   Ha ha.  I know you don't want to pursue the question anymore.   

http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=55&translator=1&start=0&number=641

By the way,  I was checking different translations and the above hadith is No.642 in the above link.  Please advise these people to correct the translation since according to you hadith is a divine revelation.  Anyhow, I accidently noticed the previous hadith No.641 and let me quote the hadith for all the readers to see the corruption that crept into authentic hadith collection.  (don't accuse me of cherry picking). 

Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab: Abu Huraira said, "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'There is none born among the off-spring of Adam, but Satan touches it. A child therefore, cries loudly at the time of birth because of the touch of Satan, except Mary and her child." Then Abu Huraira recited: "And I seek refuge with You for her and for her offspring from the outcast Satan" (3.36) 

Do you THINK this is divine revelation from ALLAH?  You ask any medical student and they will tell you why new born cry.  It seems some ignorant idots, after the death of the prophet, made a research on this phenomenon about why new born cry and to authenticate their ‘finding’ they attributed this lie to the prophet!!  And for you this is divine revelation!  :o 

Focusing on the subject of discussion let me tell you that it is shame for you if you want to compare these kinds of ahaadith with the things mentioned in the Quran.   I look forward to your comments including if the translators made any error in their translation.

Regards,
Optimist

PS: The hadith states "except Mary and her child".  I smell a Christian conspiracy here. ;)
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Bassam Zawadi

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Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2013, 04:46:40 PM »
Optimist you are digressing from the topic.

I already addressed that hadith here http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/rebuttal_to_sam_shamoun_s_article__jesus__superiority_revisited_

Please start new threads for new topics. It's a kind request.

Thanks,

Bassam

Offline optimist

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Re: Who Determines What is Absurd?
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2013, 07:56:40 PM »
Dear brother Bassam,

Assalamu alaikum.

I shall ensure to make another thread if I need to make comments for any other hadiths.  Kindly bear with me for this hadith.  The discussion is already ongoing, however, if you insist for another thread I have no problem.  Please let me know.

Well, I read your rebuttal, but the discussion is focused on countering Shamoun’s claim of superiority of Jesus over prophet Muhamed.   I am not at all focused on this point.  My questions are;

1. Do you think there is no medical reason for why the new borns cry?   According to medical science a new born baby has to cry otherwise brain will not get oxygen immediately and this can bring serious complications later.   When the baby is in the womb it doesn’t breath through the nose but by umbilical cord, so when it comes out there is no oxygen going in through the nose since the baby doesn’t know how to breath so the nurse will hit their tiny buttocks and they will respond to the pain will a yell which automatically opens the nose and the lungs start pumping oxygen.  In some cases, babies born at home, into a quiet, warm environment (especially during water birth) sometimes do not cry and no complications may happen in those circumstances.  Babies need to be monitored only under such circumstances.   There is pure science involved for babies crying.  It is not Satan’s touch that makes them cry.  Kindly let me know your views and experience on this point.

2. There are some babies that do not cry at the time of birth.   Will they come under the category of Mary and Jesus?

3. Why Mary and Jesus alone were exempted from Satan’s touching and (most probably did not cry)?   Please note, I am not concerned about whether they were saved from Satan’s influence later on - a point you made in your rebuttal.

4. Don’t you think this hadith contradicts another ahaadith reported by both Bukhari and Muslim wherein the prophet said that each and every child is born in a state of Fitrah?

5. You quoted a hadith from Volume 1, Book 4, Number 143: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas, in which prophet said “If anyone of you on having sexual relations with his wife said 'In the name of Allah. O Allah! Protect us from Satan and also protect what you bestow upon us (i.e. the coming offspring) from Satan, and if it is destined that they should have a child then, Satan will never be able to harm that offspring."  My question is this:  Are you saying that babies born in the above circumstances won’t cry??

This is all for now.  I expect from you some brief comments for my points at your convenience.

Thanks, regards
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal