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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2013, 10:44:17 AM »
Dear brother Arif Ali,

May peace be with you.

Please see my responses to your comments in red.

HOW THEN WILL YOU  COMPLETE YOUR OBLIGATIONS OF THE PERFORMANCE OF SALAH

By repeating your questions which I have responded to several times shows me:

  • That you have no evidence from the Quran for the Shi’a 'usul' of ‘imamate’ and therefore you have no recourse but to consistently cite a red herring by asking irrelevant questions
  • You are not reading my responses to your questions with sincerity.

With respect, I have already informed you clearly that the Quran does not religiously prescribe a form or specific utterances for salat, nor does it prescribe a specific number of 'tawaf' around the Ka'aba. Do you think that God runs out of words (31:27)?

With respect, which part of this assertion do you not understand?

I will repeat this twice more as you are not reading my responses.

  • The Quran does not religiously prescribe a form or specific utterances for salat, nor does it prescribe a specific number of 'tawaf' around the Ka'aba.
  • The Quran does not religiously prescribe a form or specific utterances for salat, nor does it prescribe a specific number of 'tawaf' around the Ka'aba.

The Quran informs believers to establish salat and gives guidance as to what monotheistic prayer entails for believers.

  • The need to establish five prayers http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20five%20prayers%20from%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm
  • The details of ablution (4:43; 5:6)
  • A need for a direction - Qiblah, specific for the ‘believers’ (Mu'mins) (2.143-44)
  • Garments (7:31)
  • Allusion of times: (4:103; 11:114; 17:78; 24:58; 30:18; 2:238: 20:58)
  • That prayers must be observed on time (4:103)
  • Followers of the previous scripture to observe their Qiblah and the Believers (Mu’mins) their own Qiblah (2:145)
  • Prayer involves prostration (Sujood - 4:102; 48:29)
  • There is more than one prayer (Prayer in plural used - Salawat) (2:238)
  • There is a general form to prayer (2:238-39).
  • Standing position (3:39; 4:102)
  • Bowing down and prostrating (4:102; 22:26; 38:24; 48:29)
  • Form is not required during times of emergencies, fear, and unusual circumstances (2:239)
  • A mention of a call to prayer and congregation prayer (62:9)
  • A warning not to abandon prayer as was done by people before (19:58-59) but to establish prayer (Numerous references)
  • The purpose of prayer - To remember God alone (6:162; 20:14)
  • Prayer involves utterance (4:43)
  • The purpose to protect from sins (29:45)
  • What to do in danger and the shortening of prayer (4:101)
  • Garments and mention of a Masjid, or a place of prayer (7:31)
  • The tone of prayer (17:110)
  • There is a leader of prayer (4:102)

All the above is taught by the Quran.

Therefore, as long as prayer fits the above data, then the Salat is complete.

The Quran also expects one to assimilate which I have already covered in an article and I have no problem in following today's congregations as best practice.

This is because:

  • First and foremost - It fits the Quran's requirements / criteria and
  • The practice of prayer has been transmitted en masse from the time of the Prophet finding direct support from the Quran. I have already argued this from a Quran’s perspective in dedicated articles.

Please do not keep repeating the same questions.

With regards Hajj, I once again post two articles:


Once again, please do not keep repeating the same questions.

Now please can you provide clear evidence for the Shi'a 'usul' from the Quran. Please do not keep diverting the matter to practices of religion as a cover for not being able to provide a fundamental 'usul' from the Quran.

It is my humble assertion that an absence in the Quran of an alleged 'doctrine' means that the doctrine is false.

I am respectfully awaiting your citation of clear evidence as I have been since the start of our dialogue in this thread.

You say:

There are at least two reasons why Imam Ali’s name hasn’t been mentioned in the Quran. First, because the Quran usually expresses general matters and instructions, and doesn’t get very specific.

Then you cite hadith to back up your assertion:

This is what Imam Sadeq (a.s.) has said

This is wholly incorrect and unacceptable. Are you suggesting to me and the wider readership that your Imam did not know the Quran nor had he studied it in detail?

The Quran is very explicit and detailed in matters of religion and ‘usul’. Please read the Quran carefully and not repeat typical clergy propaganda against the Quran,

Please remember you will be answerable for your testimony on the Day of Judgment.

THE QURAN IS FULLY DETAILED IN MATTERS OF RELIGION
 
006:114
"Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God? - when He is the One who has sent to you the Book, explained in detail (Arabic: Mufassalan)." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it has been sent down from your Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt"
   
012:111
"In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a detailed explanation (Arabic: watafsila)and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe"

I have also already informed you that the Quran calls itself a Book which is ‘tibiana lekulli shayin’

016.089
“And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly / clarification of everything (Arabic: tibiana lekulli shayin), and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit”
 
How can a Book be ‘tibiana (clarification) lekulli (of every) shayin (thing)’ and be incomplete and general?

Your assertion is wholly unacceptable.

Either the Quran is wrong or the citation in the name of your imam is wrong, or what he cited was wrong.

Would you really take what the hadith tells you over the Quran?

Dear brother, with respect, do you see how precarious your doctrine and understanding of the Quran is?

On the other hand, the Quran is explicit that it alone should be followed for religious guidance.

Please see the following article:

GOD HAS WARNED BELIEVERS TO ONLY FOLLOW THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/god%20has%20warned%20believers%20to%20only%20follow%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm

You are denying explicit verses and relying on ‘inferred’ theology which has no support from the Quran. This is indeed a serious matter.

In issues like this, in which there are big chances that others will disagree, it is much better for the Quran to express the truth implicitly rather than explicitly, otherwise there is a high possibility that they will end up denying the Quran as a whole.

With respect brother, what kind of erroneous rationale is this? You cannot find explicit support for an ‘usul’ from a detailed scripture and then you argue for implicit deductions?

This is unacceptable.

So one can say that the main reason behind not mentioning the names of the imams, or at least Imam Ali’s name, is the protection of the Quran from falsification and change,

One can say many things, but it has to be sensible with cogent appeal. With respect, baseless, desperate assertions such as the above to support an errant ideology has no place in a serious academic discussion.

Finally once again, please provide clear evidence for the fundamental doctrine (usul) of the Shi'a Imamate from the Quran.

With respect,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Duster

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2013, 11:15:19 AM »
Shalom / peace

I think bro Arif Ali Vakil is a Shii from birth and is finding it very difficult to see the clear verses of the Quran and separate this from his teachings from since he was a child.,,,, Also a lot is at stake - how can someone go against everything they have been taught since a baby and against all the teachings of their family and relatives. It must be very scary and I think he must be questioning things in his head.

The sunnis also have the same problem ,,,,,>>

Although I can relate to the feeling, we must submit to Allah's words and not mans. That is the true test of faith.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2013, 11:52:59 AM »
we must submit to Allah's words and not mans. That is the true test of faith.

Dear Duster,

May peace be with you.

I completely agree with your above sentiment.

I do feel that it is difficult for most to challenge deeply held convictions. Hence, why these discussions are very important where evidence can be assessed openly and critically.

Deep down, I do feel that most people know when their arguments are weak or failing and when they are simply clutching at straws to find support for their positions.

My views are intended to be general and not specific to any individual or theological group.

Regards,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline HOPE

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2013, 07:51:18 PM »
PEACE,


My understanding is that our Shia brothers and sisters attribute  the word mukhlasin to the infallibility of the prophets in the Quran.
  38:45-48 and 83
         Remember Our servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob possessors of strength and vision.
        Inna akhlasnahum bikhalisatin thikra alddari
        Wa-innahum AAindana lamina almustafayna al-akhyariAnd make mention of Ishmael and Elisha and Dhu'l-Kifl. All are of the chosen/all of the        best./Each of them was of the Company of the Good/wakullun mina al-akhyari

It seems  their logic is that when someone has been guided by God, they cannot be misguided by Satan or make mistake.

Tabataba’i defines ‘ismah as “the presence of a quality in a person that prevents him from committing any impermissible act such as a sin.”

I believe this trait which is bestowed by Allah is not limited to the prophets or imams but may apply to any abd-allah who has developed taqwa and has acquired the moral habit of refraining from sin. 

Yes, the prophets have been guided by Allah.  I believe Ali and Hussein  also have been guided by Allah.  I say this because of their inspirational sayings I have studied.  Also Rumi.  It is not based on lineage. 

"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline HOPE

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2013, 12:52:48 AM »
Salam Irfan,
 
"  Probably he meant "just as Prophet Aaron was appointed as assistant to Prophet Moses".  Shi'a swell on this 'Aaron/Musa relationship' for their own Ali/Muhammmad analogue.  "


There is no correlation at all.  Prophet Moses requested God to make Aaron  a messenger and a helper to be acknowledged  by the Pharaoh and his chiefs 
Are they claiming that Prophet Muhammad was in need of Ali ?  Even if he were, the help was not sanctioned by the Quran.  Actually the quotation is from the Jewish Encyclopedia.

"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Irfan

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2013, 11:45:20 AM »
Salamun alaikum to all,

The end result of this discourse on the Shi'a doctrine was a forgone conclusion. You notice that NONE of the main doctrines of the Shi'a school of thought is sustainable from within the Qur'an. The Shi'a scholars literally scramble through the Book of Allah to find support for the Ali cluster of the "infallibles" but none is forthcoming. Sunnis have also been looking for Abu bakr's name or Umar's name in the Qur'an for the last 1100 years when these names were sanctified into the otherwise pristine Islam.
The Qur'an literally busts all the Sectarian bubbles with one poke!

Offline Arif Ali Vakil

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2013, 06:23:29 PM »
And peace Be upon you too and His mercy & blessings Irfan,
                                                                                                                                                                             It seems you have not read my replies to your foregone preconceived conclusions.(Please help  retrieve my reply regarding the same which I had addressed to you and Brother Joseph jointly). Nevertheless at the expense of repetition, if your comprehensive capacities permit you to accept the simple reality that an absence of the mention of names or subject matter do not prove the nonexistence of doctrines,practices or realities. There are many vital matters which are not mentioned in the Holy Quran, like method & number of rakats to be offered in a salah, the number of times the Holy Kaaba has to be circumumbulated, the meanings of letters at the beginning of many surahs like ALIF LAM MIM, YA SIN, HA MIM, TA SIN, QAF, TA HA etc and the same can only be understood by referring it to the Holy Prophet (saws). WILL YOU NEGLECT TO  OFFER YOUR SALAH, TAWAAf OF THE KABAH ON THE GROUNDS THAT YOU FIND NO MENTION OF ITS PERFORMANCE IN THE HOLY BOOK OR RECOMMEND A SEPARATE SALAH FOR  EACH HUMAN BEING ON THE EARTH. If anything is evident here,it is your incapacity to comprehend the pristine purity of the Shia faith (pls reread my replies until  you clearly understand the truth). With Regards Arif Ali Vakil

Offline Duster

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2013, 07:29:16 PM »
There bro Arif Ali Vakil goes again comparing doctrine and a pillar with practices!

What will it take to undo years of blind learning of his forefathers possible from birth?


Number 1: Salah is mentioned in the qur'an to establish numerous times.
Number 2: Tawaf is mentioned in the qur'an.

Where is Shi'a imamat mentioned????? Without this, you cannot EXIST!!!!!

A basic pillar of your faith is not mentioned in the QUR'AN. Why don't you get it?

There is no 'pristine purity' bro. It is unproven unevidenced CLAIMS!

No hard feelings.

Shalom / Peace

Offline Irfan

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2013, 09:48:58 PM »
Peace be upon you, my  brother Arif ali,
Thanks for your reminders.  There are all kinds of instructions about the Salat and circumambulations of the K'aba in the Qur'an. Consider this:  If the method of wudu has been described completely in the Qur'an, it is not possible that the rest of the Salat is not.  The Salat was already offered at the k'aba BEFORE the advent of the Prophet (piuh), only it was not being offered with proper understanding and spirit (8:35).  There was no God-fear (taqwa), no direction, no remembrance of God, no focus in the Salat.  It was reduced to a mere ritual. The FORM of the Salat was already there as it was one of the MANASIK (please study 2:125/128) but the spirit was absent.  Br. Joseph Islam has posted all the relevant verses that provide the right guidance which needed to be injected into the 'FORM'.  Similarly, the Hajj ritual was not new either.  It was already being done at the K'aba for a long time--yes, including the circumambulation.  If you think you should make only ONE circle and not seven, you comply with the Divine command.  I do seven circles because I think it is a part of the established 'FORM'.  But we should not lose sight of the fact that the real purpose of going for the Hajj is to remember Allah without many worldly distractions  (away from home, abstention from sex, no argumentation / fighting--perfect peace). 
So the Salat is mentioned multiple times in the Qur’an.  How about the "CONTINUING IMAMATE"?  Is it mentioned in the Qur'an (even once)? Brother, I would expect that there should be at least SOME indication from Allah telling us that we should follow some imamate--and also whose imamate?  I see no evidence of that instruction in the Book.  Even the word “Shi’a” is not used in the Qur’an the same way we know today.  So please give me something that I can say consider seriously. I always keep my mind open. 

Offline HOPE

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2013, 10:12:42 PM »
Peace  brother Arif Ali,

I am really trying to understand Shia.  I'll give you that the allusion to Ali to the position of leadership is in 5:55 because  there is no such rule that we have to give zakat in ruku thus the verse must be referring to a specific incident that happened.  Beyond that it is a leap of faith that I cannot find in the Quran. 

 



"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Irfan

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2013, 02:53:48 PM »
Peace, Br. Hope:

The verse 5:55 is general--it doesn't give any impression that it may refer to anyone particular.  This verse informs the believers that their friends are only Allah, His Messenger, and other believers--because the believers are the ones who establish Salat, pay the Zakaat, and bow before Allah.  If this verse were implying ONE particular person, it would say "Allah, His Messnger, and the one who establishes Salat, and pays Zakkat while in ruku".  Here's the full verse:   

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلاَةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ (5:55) 
Basit -  Hussari  -  Minshawi   -   

Innama waliyyukumu Allahu warasooluhu waallatheena amanoo allatheena yuqeemoona alssalata wayutoona alzzakata wahum rakiAAoona

  Topics discussed in this Verse: 
[Allah's friendship (to the believers)] [Charity [zakah]] [Kabah] [Zakah] 


•5:55 (Picktall) Your friend can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poor due, and bow down (in prayer).

Offline Arif Ali Vakil

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2013, 06:24:52 AM »
Peace be upon all & Allah's mercy and blessings.

Dear Brothers Joseph, Irfan, Duster.

I reproduce one more article regarding 'Imamate in the Holy Quran" to enable a better understanding of the matter.

Quite a few people are asking for evidences in the Quran for aspects of the Imamate. I thought I'd post this note here :

The belief in angels is mentioned numerous times in the Quran. But do  people really care about  the angels? Do the scholars spend their time studying what little is   known about the angels with the greatest attention? If Allah hadn't   kept mentioning them, we might have forgotten about them lol. An   exaggeration perhaps, but I think you see the point: the number of times   something is mentioned is not equal to how important it is.



How  many times minimum does something need to be mentioned in the Quran   for it to be absolutely true, important, and something that must be   followed? Once. I think I'm correct in saying the only time the Quran   talks about how you must fast in the month of Ramadhaan is 2:183-187.   Yet it is an important thing. Fasting itself may be mentioned   repeatedly, but fasting in the month of Ramadhaan isn't.How many times  does  Imamate need to be mentioned in the Quran for it to be true,  important,  and necessary to follow? Once.



They ask you  for proof of the Imamate. Then let us turn to the Quran first for proof,  before we turn to the ahadeeth (narrations) and tareekh (history):



Translation of the Glorious Quran (by Shakir):

[4:59] O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Rasul) and those in authority (Ulil-Amr) from among you;  then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the  Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and  very good in the end.



The obedience to Rasulullaah ("the  Messenger (of God)") is equal to the obedience to Ulil-Amr ("the people  of authority") as can be seen by the wording.

"ateeAAoo Allaha waateeAAoo arrasoola waolee  al-amri minkum" = "obey the Messenger (Rasul) and those in authority  (Ulil-Amr) from among you": Notice how the same "obey" that is used for  Rasulullaah is also used for Ulil-Amr. This means that the Ulil-Amr must  have the same authority as a leader and commander as the Rasululllaah  or they wouldn't have the same level of obedience in this verse.



One  of the reasons why we trust Rasulullah and we have to obey him is  because his words are not his own; they are the words of God (69:40-47).  He receives communications from the Lord Almighty. He is infallible.  The same must apply to Ulil-Amr because they must be obeyed without  condition. Since the verse equates the obedience to the Prophet to the  obedience to the Ulil-Amr, one cannot disobey the Ulil-Amr.



Notice  that the verse says "if you quarrel about anything, refer to Allah and  the Messenger"; since we cannot disobey the Ulil-Amr, even when we  quarrel with Ulil-Amr, they cannot be in the wrong.

So what does  the Quran say about quarrelling with them? "refer to Allah and the  Messenger". Why? The Ulil-Amr are right, but if a person does not  believe in them, he or she refer to Allah and His "postman" -  Rasulullaah. Why? Allah and Rasulullaah are the bringers of law and  truth. The Ulil-Amr do not have this role. They do not  reveal/bring/establish the law and truth. Anyway, since Rasulullaah is equated with Ulil-Amr, disputing with the Ulil-Amr is disputing with Rasulullaah.


But they must be obeyed,  just like one obeys Rasulullaah; and they cannot be in the wrong. Thus,  they only speak what Allah and Rasulullaah have brought. The Ulil-Amr  only say what Allah and Rasulullaah say. This can only be true all the  time if Ulil-Amr have all the knowledge of Rasulullaah. Otherwise, if  they were asked a question and they were deficient in their knowledge,  they would speak from their own opinion, and the verse would no longer  be true! What happens if Rasulullaah dies and the Ulil-Amr remain? The  Ulil-Amr are still present, and since they only speak what Allah and  Ulil-Amr say, they must still be obeyed and followed. Therefore it would  be a great wrong to even consider obeying and learning Islam from any  other human being when the Ulil-Amr are present! How could we follow any  other, regardless of whether they were a sahabi (companion of the  Prophet) who was with the Prophet for decades or a scholar who studied  for decades, when they, perfect sources, are present?



Look  everywhere in the Quran where Allah asks they you to obey; He puts the  condition that if they disobey Him, then this is what you do. For  example, God tells us to obey our parents; but then He says if they  disobey Him, then disobey them. The only obedience in the Quran where  Allah does not warn you of disobedience is to Ulil-Amr. This indicates  that Allah's opinion of them is that they would never disobey Him; which  means they can never go against His commands. By not warning us of any  disobedience from them, He is making it clear that they would never be  disobedient in the face of the doubt and disbelief (in them) of many.

Why  does Allah command us to obey Muhammed, peace and blessings be upon him  and his Ahlulbayt? It's because he was chosen as Rasulullaah. Why was  he chosen? Because he is the pure and because he is the greatest of  men. Obedience to Rasulullah = obedience to Ulil-Amr, so that "waw"  ("and") next to the word "Rasulullaah" means that all those qualities  apply to Ulil-Amr. Allah has chosen those who are Ulil-Amr for their  great qualities and for being the greatest of men.



In one  verse, the Ulil-Amr are given nass (designation), authority, isma  (infallibility), and ilm (knowledge). Let's give the Ulil-Amr a  nickname. How about "Imams"? Oh wait, that sounds suspiciously like the  Shia concept of Imamate. Plagiarism perhaps lol? Or maybe the same  Author is behind this all.



Do you want Imamate to be  clearly written out in clear, simple terms with what the role of Imamate  is and the qualities that an Imam will possess? Too bad; it seems the  Quran does not work like that. Want an example? Let's look at Salaat.  Arguably one of the most important things in the whole religion of  Islam. Even though it is mentioned all over the Quran, nowhere do the  Majestic Words of the Creator give a passage that acts as a manual to  Salaat. Instead in one chapter, we find just one verse that mentions the  timings. When it comes to the number of rakaat per Salaat, not even a  single verse! In-fact, ar-Rahmaan, subhanahu wa tala, does not give a  clear method of how to perform Salaat! But, I thought Salaat was  supposed to be important? Of course it is. It's very important. That's  why it's mentioned in the Quran, Sunnah, and ahadeeth. Imamate is also a  very important concept. It's mentioned a few times in the Quran with  different words, such as walaya. But it's mentioned and that's enough.






"I  asked Abu 'AbdAllaah (as-Sadiq)about the words of  Allaah  'Believers, obey Allah, His Messenger, and your  leaders (who possess Divine Authority). . . .' (4:59) "The Imam said,  'This was sent from the heavens about `Ali ibn Abi Taalib, Al-Hasan and  Al-Hussain ' I then said, 'People say, "Why did He not specify Ali and his family by their names in the Book of Allaah ?' "The  Imam said, 'Say to them, "The command for prayer came to the Messenger  of Allah but He has not specified (the number of the Rak'ats) for them  as being three or four. It, in fact, was the Messenger of Allah who  explained to them this matter. The command for Zakat (a form of  income tax) came to the Messenger of Allah and there was no specific  taxable number such as one Dirham on every forty Dirham. It was the  Messenger of Allah who explained it for them. The command for Hajj came  to the Messenger of Allah. It did not say walk seven times around the  Ka'ba. It was the Messenger of Allah who explained it for them...."

Source: al-Kulayni in his al-Kafi, volume 1, pages 286–288, hadeeth #1

Grading: al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (authentic) in his Mir'aat Al-`Uqool, volume 3, page 213

Some thoughts to conclude


Now before anyone replies saying "Tabatabaa'ee's arguments/commentary are weak/untrue", please think about why they are weak. I've seen quite a few people say this, yet they provided no reason as to why they think this. There are Sunni scholars who have agreed with various aspects of what has been written above. One example is ar-Razi who agreed that 4:59 makes Ulil-Amr infallible; (however he tried to make it out that the Ulil-Amr are the whole Ummah...which for a variety of reasons is a poor explanation. A simple example: the verse says the "those in authority _amongst you_" (ulil-amri minkum). I.e. there are certain people in the Ummah who are so-and-so. Not the whole Ummah. Razi's explanation contradicts the wording of the verse).


On another subject, if anyone were to bring something, such as a set of ahadeeth, which claim that the Ulil-Amr taught or behaved differently to the Prophet then either the Quran is wrong for equating the Prophet and Ulil-Amr in many ways, or this set of ahadeeth is. The answer is obvious. And vice versa. It does not matter how "authentic" a set of ahadeeth may be according to the science of rijaal or a set of scholars; if it contradicts the Quran, it is false. For example, if the Ulil-Amr say you cannot wipe on leather socks, and a set of ahadeeth say that various people said you can, then the latter is false because it has disagreed with the Ulil-Amr.


Allahumma salle alah Muhammedin wa Aale Muhammed.

"All  the  praises and thanks be to Allah, Who has guided us to this, never  could  we have found guidance, were it not that Allah had guided us!" |  Quran,  007:043.

This note is mostly based on a lecture delivered by Ammar Nakshawani

Brothers have you all had the pleasure of listening to brother Ammar Nakhshwani and brother Hasanayn Rajabally on youtube. I would request you to hear him and benefit from the same and also grace me with your views and comments.
N.B: They have discussed at length various topics.
With warmest regards brothers,
Towards unity among all of mankind,
Arif ali Vakil
"And the pleasure of Allah (swt) is the greatest bliss."


Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2013, 02:38:52 PM »
Dear brother Arif

May peace be with you.

With respect, I find that once again you have not provided any evidence for the concept of 12 infallible divinely appointed imams for mankind’s guidance from the Quran.

You are once again using the exhausted arguments of 'salat' which is a subsidiary to defend the lack of mention of an 'usul' (fundamental doctrine).  It also appears you are not respecting the contentions against this failed logic that are repeatedly being made.

How you have then taken 'those in authority' and equated it to the concept of imamate is difficult to comprehend.

In fact, your own history is against you. If 'those in authority' are to be obeyed, then quite obviously, God did not intend Imam Ali to be the first caliph to be obeyed as he was preceded by 3 other caliphs. What happened to following the Quran’s guidance at this point?

Are you seriously going to suggest that God’s divinely appointed imam was thwarted?

There is no correlation whatsoever with the notion of following those in authority with the 12 infallible divinely appointed imams that Shi'a alleges.

Dear brother, for one second, do you not see that the Shi'a theology is built upon an extremely precarious position?

Please open the Quran randomly and note how many times the fundamentals of beliefs are mentioned, the Oneness of God, the Last Day, the angels et al. Where is the mention of the 12 divinely appointed infallible imams in the Quran?

How long will you continue to peddle this desperate theology when it has been made clear in this discussion that you have no support from the Quran? Do you see the Quran as such a facile piece of document? I sincerely trust that this is not the case.

Will one honestly stand in front of their Lord and say that they followed their forefathers whilst there was no explicit proof of their fundamental concepts in the Quran that He inspired in His Prophet?

This indeed is no small matter. Our 'akhirat' can depend on the evidence of our beliefs.

Dear brother, with respect, as an intelligent individual, can you not see how desperate your arguments are so that you can somehow prove a theology which has no support from the Quran?

With respect as always,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Irfan

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2013, 07:44:46 PM »

Peace to all:

I think this debate is caught in a whirlpool---an inevitable consequence of any debate between and a Shi'a brother/sister and someone else. Whenever there is a conflict between a well-ingrained BORROWED logic and an independent thought pattern, the process will fall flat on its face.

No offense but the whole Shi’a theology reminds me of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole; it won't work- it never has.

Robert Michaels, in his treatise on democracies, has said that not only the political system, but ALL systems will degrade into authoritarianism, a natural consequence of what he calls "Iron Law of Oligarchy". This is true of theology as well, that delegates the Divine power to some presumed ""Imamate".

The verse 4:59 proves beyond doubt that the oou al-amr---whoever they may be---are NOT fallible.  If they were, there would not be any dispute between them and the ruled because Allah says "...If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger...".  So the ultimate authority is still "Allah and the Messenger".  Allah comes first but His Messenger did not bring the Message but from Him alone, so, at the end of the day, we are being asked to obey the Message—because, after the passing away of the Blessed Messenger, Allah generally talks to us through His Message.

In sum, the believers are told to base their obedience to the Oolu al-amr (whoever they are) who, in turn, should make sure that their decisions and verdicts stand on the firm footing of Allah's Message. 

Offline Irfan

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2013, 08:28:51 PM »


A correction:  Please read "NOT infallible" in the sentence "The verse 4:59 proves beyond doubt that the oou al-amr---whoever they may be---are NOT fallible" in my earlier post on this thread.  Thanks.