Surah 25:30 and Surah 5:109 question about the two?

[Hamzeh]

Salamu Alikum

As I was reading the articles  "Understanding the Crucifixion of Jesus (pbuh) from a Quran's Perspective" and "IS THE SECOND COMING OF PROPHET JESUS (pbuh) SUPPORTED BY THE QURAN?" by Brother Joseph Islam. I came to think about something.


in EVIDENCE 3
 
NO MESSENGER WILL KNOW WHAT HAS HAPPENED ON EARTH AFTER THEY DIE
 
005.109
“One day God will gather the messengers together, and ask: "What was the response you received (from men to your teaching)?" They will say: "We have no knowledge: it is You Who knows in full all that is hidden."
 
There is no exclusion for Prophet Jesus (pbuh) in this verse and resonates Prophet Jesus's (pbuh) comments captured in 5:116-117


the above is from IS THE SECOND COMING OF PROPHET JESUS (pbuh) SUPPORTED BY THE QURAN?


And I came to think about this Verse below:


The translation of the qurans surah 25:30 is as follows:



Sahih International
And the Messenger has said, "O my Lord, indeed my people have taken this Qur'an as [a thing] abandoned."

Muhsin Khan
And the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will say: "O my Lord! Verily, my people deserted this Quran (neither listened to it, nor acted on its laws and orders).

Pickthall
And the messenger saith: O my Lord! Lo! mine own folk make this Qur'an of no account.

Yusuf Ali
Then the Messenger will say: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."

Shakir
And the Messenger cried out: O my Lord! surely my people have treated this Quran as a forsaken thing.

Dr. Ghali
And the Messenger has said, "O Lord! Surely my people have taken to themselves this Qur'an as a thing to be forsaken."




One might think that how can one verse say that all the messengers(pbut) had no knowledge about there people and then the messenger Muhammad(pbuh) knew what his people did by saying they either abandoned or treated the Quran as a forsaken thing?



If I had to give my opinion or guess, the verse 25:30 seems to be taking place on the day of Judgement. Or maybe after that day or the end of it. It makes me think that maybe the Rasul is the witness on the Day of judgement to his people and after seeing the outcome or the result of the peoples trial he says that.

And verse 5:105 is probably being asked before the Judgment has taken place or before trial?

Im not saying the verses are going against each other. But i enjoyed the articles and I thought I would ask about something that came to my mind.


Inshallah Brother Joseph can lend me a few minutes and give me his explanation on the verses or point me to a article that explains them.

Salam

Hamzeh

[Joseph Islam]

Wa alaikum assalam brother Hamzeh,

Please kindly see my responses below to your comments 

One might think that how can one verse say that all the messengers(pbut) had no knowledge about there people and then the messenger Muhammad(pbuh) knew what his people did by saying they either abandoned or treated the Quran as a forsaken thing?

If I had to give my opinion or guess, the verse 25:30 seems to be taking place on the day of Judgement. Or maybe after that day or the end of it. It makes me think that maybe the Rasul is the witness on the Day of judgement to his people and after seeing the outcome or the result of the peoples trial he says that.

Yes indeed, the context 25:22ff leading to verse 25:30 clearly indicates a period after everyone is resurrected.

And verse 5:105 is probably being asked before the Judgment has taken place or before trial?

Verse 5:105 is guidance imparted for the living and hence before the Day of Judgement.

Furthermore, I feel there is something worth noting. Verse 25:30 does not indicate 'what' messenger(s) will utter these words. One only assumes it is Prophet Muhammad as there is mention of the Quran. However, if one holds the view that 'messengers' (rasul) will still come to various nations (10:47, 13:7, 39:71, 7:35) and reaffirm the fundamental teachings of the Quran [1], then this address could be argued as generic.

Once Satan and his minions close the doors in the minds of the followers regarding the possibility of future guidance, it can then wreak havoc with the behemoth of secondary sources and the rusty argumentation of clergy rule that it has long commissioned in the name of religion. It is the only sure way to lead the masses astray.

It does appear that the denial of future messengers is an old satanic tool to rest control over errant beliefs and practices.

040:034
"And certainly Joseph came to you before with clear arguments, but you ever remained in doubt as to what he brought; until when he died, you said: God will never raise a messenger after him. Thus does God cause him to go astray who is extravagant, a doubter"
 
Once you kill off the possibility of any future guidance to errant existing practices, you sever the link to any possible redress.

I hope that helps, God willing.
Joseph.


REFERENCE

[1] END OF PROPHETHOOD - CONTINUATION OF MESSENGERS?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/end%20of%20prophethood%20FM3.htm
 

[Hamzeh]

Salamu Alikum Brother Joseph

Ramadan Mubarak Inshallah to you

Thank you for your kind reply and clarifying my question. I appreciate it.

I would also assume it would be prophet Muhammad(pbuh) since alrasoolu would be a single and not plural(I think) and because the Quran is of mention.


some people say that new messengers of Allah(swt) are always to come which I think your perspective is similar, but your view is that no new scripture would ever come. Which I agree.

like Bahais they say that they believe in the Quran but because of the verse below they say new messengers are to come. Which I found also that some say that seal of prophethood does not mean "final" or "last" but just means a "stamp" or "confirmation" of prophethood. But just by reading a little bit of their books its easy to tell that its not in connection with the Quran, but seems like its trying to be by stating new sharia laws to this era of people and so on. And then there is other sects that are ahmadiyas, which you are probably familiar with all they also claim that a person today is Gods messengers because to "every nation is a messenger" and the verse below:

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
(The Holy Quran, Al-Ahzab 33:40)

But just to clarify for myself and for others would I be going against the Quran if I was to say that every messenger of Allah(swt) is a prophet and not every prophet is a messenger of Allah(swt)?

Just for clarification for what im trying to say is that, If prophethood is more holy than messengers(rusul) from Allah(swt), then why are we told to obey the messenger(rasul) and not the Nabi(prophethood)?

And also would you think that the messengers of Allah(swt) the ones he sent with his verses and scriptures like Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Abraham(pbut) be infallible in the state they were as messengers and not as a prophets? the reason I ask this is because I noticed in the Quran when ever the prophets did some mistakes, Allah(swt) would calls them out by saying Nabi and not Rasul. And another reason is because we are told to Obey Allah and the Rasul never the Nabi. One just inclines to ask, why if the prophets are the ones who brought the revelation and would be infallible in making a mistake when revealing it then wouldn't we be told to obey them as prophets and not the messengers. Because from an article I read from you dear brother, stated prophethood is greater than messenger.

Would a messenger of Allah(swt) be different than a regular normal human messenger from the people or a messenger from amongst ourselves (Rusoolan Minkum) rehearsing verses already sent and present in the hands of people? Or would you say that messengers among ourselves even today would be given inspiration from Allah(swt) from maybe a wahi, angle etc?

And is it rusuls from Allah(swt) who were inspired with revelations or was it Nabis(prophets)?


I am really shy to ask these because I know you went over this before and it would be time consuming trying to find the ayat that relate to all the messengers and prophets and to distinguish the differences.

However Joseph there is a few points that you made which clarified much in my mind about the whole topic, and if the discussion ends here because of exhaustion of the topic I understand and I thank you again so much for your time, and for your kind responses.


Salam

Hamzeh

[Joseph Islam]

Wa alaikum assalam dear brother Hamzeh and I wish you all the best this month too iA 


Please see my responses to your comments in blue.

Just for clarification for what im trying to say is that, If prophethood is more holy than messengers(rusul) from Allah(swt), then why are we told to obey the messenger(rasul) and not the Nabi(prophethood)?

Please note that 'messenger' is a generic term for God's agents that convey His message. When it comes to authority, you will note examples in the Quran where the term 'Prophet' is also used.

For example, please note the authority given to the Prophet in verse 8:65, 8:67, 9:73, the respect he is given on the Day of Judgment (66-8) and  the title Prophet Abraham, the father of faith is called by in verse 19:41.

And also would you think that the messengers of Allah(swt) the ones he sent with his verses and scriptures like Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Abraham(pbut) be infallible in the state they were as messengers and not as a prophets?

No human is infallible. However, in 'wahiy' with regards to 'scripture' in the capacity of a Prophet, there is infallibility. i.e. the scripture is communicated as revealed by God perfectly.

Would a messenger of Allah(swt) be different than a regular normal human messenger from the people or a messenger from amongst ourselves (Rusoolan Minkum) rehearsing verses already sent and present in the hands of people? Or would you say that messengers among ourselves even today would be given inspiration from Allah(swt) from maybe a wahi, angle etc?

'Wahi' can be of many types. Please see article below.

UNDERSTANDING VERSE 42:51 - WHO CAN RECEIVE 'WAHI'?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/wahi%20FM3.htm

Dear brother, I feel I have provided comprehensive perspectives on this topic  which discusses this matter from a Quran’s perspectives with many verses to corroborate the view. I humbly feel that I have addressed the main gist of your enquiry and I agree, I do feel we have come to the point of exhausting this topic.

I always feel any ‘implied’ opinions should be understood first through explicit verses of the Quran. I trust that you will agree.

I hope this helps, God willing.
Joseph.

[Hamzeh]

Thank you brother Joseph

Thats for giving me a clarification on what it means. It does make sense now that I think of messenger as a generic term that Allah (swt) uses for his message to be revealed.  And as the prophets are different. 

Salamu alikum