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Offline kabiru74

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FEW DAYS OR THE WHOLE MONTH IN RAMADAN
« on: July 29, 2013, 08:19:33 PM »
Salam broda Jo!
Pls kindly comment on the following verses of the Quran with respect to fasting:

Ch2 V184 and Ch2: 203.

Putting the arabic word ayyaman ma'adudat into consideration.

Salam

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: FEW DAYS OR THE WHOLE MONTH IN RAMADAN
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2013, 01:11:50 AM »
Salaam and welcome,


With regards to 2.184, the days in question are in the month of Ramadhan as is clarified in 2.185:

'The month of Ramadhan [is that] in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever sights [the new moon of] the month, let him fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.'

2.203 is discussing the Hajj.

Offline kabiru74

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Re: FEW DAYS OR THE WHOLE MONTH IN RAMADAN
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2013, 03:22:43 AM »
Salam and thanx for ur response.
 The question is, if Allah mentioned in 2:184 dat the fasting is for certain days or few days as d word ma'adudat signify, why are we fasting for the whole month?

In 2:203 where such similar word exist Allah clearly mentioned 4 consecutive months for hajj  and yet he said for certain or few days. He further explain the ayyamu ma'adudat to mean mininmum of 2days and maybe maximum of 10days  in each of this 4months of pilgrimage. Why was dat for the fast of ramadan different?? I believe the ayyaman ma'aduudat should have d same effect on ramadan month. And also keeping in view in all the verses where ayyaman ma'addudat appear in the Quran, it signifies  very few days or years.

Can d missed fast be done in other months that is not ramadan just like hajj can't be
 done outside the months specified for it. If few days in ramadan ranges from say minimum of 2days to 10days. Those who missed out of journey,sickness,difficulties etc can still make it up within the ramadan month. thanx broda.

Offline optimist

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Re: FEW DAYS OR THE WHOLE MONTH IN RAMADAN
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2013, 03:41:41 AM »
Salam and thanx for ur response.
 The question is, if Allah mentioned in 2:184 dat the fasting is for certain days or few days as d word ma'adudat signify, why are we fasting for the whole month?
Salam!

The word adda - ya-uddu - adda: means to count: adad and adeed are the nouns that are derived from it.  In verse 14:34 it says  وَإِنْ تَعُدُّوا نِعْمَتَ اللَّهِ لَا تُحْصُوهَا meaning "if you count...".  The term Ayyaman ma’doodah is used in 2:80 as numbered days/ the days which are counted/ prescribed number of days   لَنْ تَمَسَّنَا النَّارُ إِلَّا أَيَّامًا مَعْدُودَةً. Similarly, in the verse 2:184 you quoted Ayyaman ma’doodah is used for the days of fasting.  But it has been explained a little ahead in 2:185 it is said: فَمَنْ شَهِدَ مِنْكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ faman shahida minkumu-shahra falyasumhu, meaning whoso among you witnesses the month, let him fast it.  This verse clarifies the prescribed number of days mentioned above.  Those who are alive during this month (except those who are exempted) must fast.  It is evident from this that fasting is for the entire month of Ramadan.

'The month of Ramadhan [is that] in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever sights [the new moon of] the month, let him fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.'

Brother Truth seeker,  I have one small objection for quoting the above translation.  In the translation you have quoted, it is mentioned “whoever sights [the new moon of] the month, let him fast it”.  Here the term shahida actually means witnessing the month. Sighting of new moon of the month is a misrepresentation.   Even a closer examining the Qur’anic usage of the term, for example, the Qur’an uses the term “shahida” to refer to an act of witnessing in which the witness provides a testimony based on rational argument, rather than actual eye-witnessing: Here is the verse;
 
He said: "It was she that sought to seduce me, from my (true) self." And one of her household bore witness, (thus) "If it be that his shirt is torn from the front, then is her tale true, and he is a liar! But if it be that his shirt is torn from the back, then is she the liar, and he is telling the truth! (12:26-7)
 
Here the term “Shahida” is used for the testimony that was a rational argument based on knowledge of the habitual behavior and the physical limitations of human beings.  The witness testified that if Yusuf’s shirt was torn from the back, this would then be good evidence that the king’s wife was lying as she would have made an attempt to grab him from the back as he ran away from her. But if his shirt was torn from the front, this would be evidence that she was trying to defend herself against his unwanted advances, and he would be the person who lied.  Therefore the verse actually means that those who witness the month, those are who alive during this month, except those who are exempted from fasting, must fast during the whole month.

Regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline kabiru74

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Re: FEW DAYS OR THE WHOLE MONTH IN RAMADAN
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2013, 02:52:03 PM »
Salam,

I really appreciate ur timely and detailed response. U left some questions in my second post unanswered.

1. Can ramadan fast be done outside ramadan month? Putting into consideration Hajj months and fixed time salat which can not be repeated once outside its specified months and time respectively. Could ramadan be different??

2. The problem I still have is dat the fayyasmuhu might not be reffering to the whole month rather the ayyaman maddudat that was already make mention of in the previous verse. Allah says one verse verify the other. The usage of the word during the hajj period seriously need to be looked into for verification of what dis in ramadan verse is reffering to.

 Look at it criticallly, the months of Hajj are 4 in number and they are still counted days bcs we can actually count the days(120days) but yet Allah used ayyaman madudat and goes further to say minimum of 2days out of each 30days. This, brother joseph islam captured very well its usage in his Hajj article. He actually treated the usage of the word to my clear understanding even though he did not make reference to the ramadan verse wen he made reference to other verses of the Quran where the word was used.

 The ramadan verse where this particular word was used fit to be compared more to that of the hajj than any other verse of the Quran(check it out pls). Is Allah not saying something different from what we now practice??

3. If u look at the jews(2:80). The hell is supposed eternity but yet d word was still used and another verse dat explained dis is dat they say just for a few day or part of a day which means they actually meant very small part of d time specified(eternity). And also that of yusuf been sold for a very few dirham bcs he was considered insignificant(notice dis). So for Allah to have used this in the month of ramadan I believed it has to be looked into keeping in view that Allah says if u missed out of the days u fast equal numbers of other days. The question is dat is it other days in the month of ramadan or outside the ramadan month?? Is fasting allowed outside month of ramadan???

4. Allah clearly says for killing unintentionally or taking an oath not touch ur wife, the punishment for atonement is for u to fast 2 consecutives months and or u feed 60days for those that took an oath(4:92 and 58:4). What is d point here?. It shows dat when Allah wants to tell u to fast for a whole month he can actually say dat clearly without any ambiquity. He is not short of words and He does not forget. The word ayyaman madudat used in the ramdan verse has a kind of implication dat needs to be studied. Allah knows best

5. Thanx for making reference to sighting the moon and witnessing the month. Most translations are still been affected by traditional settings and dis has been one of the greatest problem confronting us as a students of the Quran. Let us look deeply into the actual word used by Allah not what the hadith made us to believe. There is no mention of the moon at all in that verse so why the moon sighting?? This can translate into changing the word of God which is perfectly chosen and He says non can change His word.

For now I am still fasting the month, so  just trying to see what Allah is saying in these two verses(hajj and ramadan) that are similar and has to do with pillars.
Thanx once again for ur response.
Salam. 

Offline Saba

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Re: FEW DAYS OR THE WHOLE MONTH IN RAMADAN
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2013, 05:21:26 PM »
Brother Truth seeker, 

Truthseeker is a fellow sister  ;)

Offline Saba

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Re: FEW DAYS OR THE WHOLE MONTH IN RAMADAN
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2013, 05:31:23 PM »
Brother Joseph has written a couple of good articles which I think cover some of the issues being discussed here... certainly about numbered days etc and comparison with Hajj months. Might be helpful. Saba   ;D 8)

Lailut-ul qadr - An Understanding from a Quranic Perspective - http://quransmessage.com/articles/night%20of%20power%20FM3.htm
The 'Lost' Months of Hajj  - http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20lost%20months%20of%20hajj%20FM3.htm

Offline optimist

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Re: FEW DAYS OR THE WHOLE MONTH IN RAMADAN
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2013, 10:23:01 PM »
Salam,

I really appreciate ur timely and detailed response. U left some questions in my second post unanswered.

1. Can ramadan fast be done outside ramadan month? Putting into consideration Hajj months and fixed time salat which can not be repeated once outside its specified months and time respectively. Could ramadan be different??

2. The problem I still have is dat the fayyasmuhu might not be reffering to the whole month rather the ayyaman maddudat that was already make mention of in the previous verse. Allah says one verse verify the other. The usage of the word during the hajj period seriously need to be looked into for verification of what dis in ramadan verse is reffering to.

 Look at it criticallly, the months of Hajj are 4 in number and they are still counted days bcs we can actually count the days(120days) but yet Allah used ayyaman madudat and goes further to say minimum of 2days out of each 30days. This, brother joseph islam captured very well its usage in his Hajj article. He actually treated the usage of the word to my clear understanding even though he did not make reference to the ramadan verse wen he made reference to other verses of the Quran where the word was used.

 The ramadan verse where this particular word was used fit to be compared more to that of the hajj than any other verse of the Quran(check it out pls). Is Allah not saying something different from what we now practice??

3. If u look at the jews(2:80). The hell is supposed eternity but yet d word was still used and another verse dat explained dis is dat they say just for a few day or part of a day which means they actually meant very small part of d time specified(eternity). And also that of yusuf been sold for a very few dirham bcs he was considered insignificant(notice dis). So for Allah to have used this in the month of ramadan I believed it has to be looked into keeping in view that Allah says if u missed out of the days u fast equal numbers of other days. The question is dat is it other days in the month of ramadan or outside the ramadan month?? Is fasting allowed outside month of ramadan???

4. Allah clearly says for killing unintentionally or taking an oath not touch ur wife, the punishment for atonement is for u to fast 2 consecutives months and or u feed 60days for those that took an oath(4:92 and 58:4). What is d point here?. It shows dat when Allah wants to tell u to fast for a whole month he can actually say dat clearly without any ambiquity. He is not short of words and He does not forget. The word ayyaman madudat used in the ramdan verse has a kind of implication dat needs to be studied. Allah knows best

5. Thanx for making reference to sighting the moon and witnessing the month. Most translations are still been affected by traditional settings and dis has been one of the greatest problem confronting us as a students of the Quran. Let us look deeply into the actual word used by Allah not what the hadith made us to believe. There is no mention of the moon at all in that verse so why the moon sighting?? This can translate into changing the word of God which is perfectly chosen and He says non can change His word.

For now I am still fasting the month, so  just trying to see what Allah is saying in these two verses(hajj and ramadan) that are similar and has to do with pillars.
Thanx once again for ur response.
Salam.

Wassalam,

I have read your points and have the following comments.

1. There is nothing in the verse that suggest/ imply that missed fasts can not be done in other months that is not Ramadan.  Imagine a situation someone undergoes an operation and the doctor directs him not to fast during the whole month of Ramadan or in a case where someone is sick the whole month.  How can he observe the missed fasts in the same month of Ramadan?  He has an obligation to compensate the missed fasts which he has to do on other days in other months.  I believe fast during other days فَعِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ  clearly denotes days other than days in Ramadan.

2. According to me, the term ayyaman maddudat is used to focus on the importance of fasting on the days of this particular month, because one can fast other days as per one's choice, and it is not Allah's command to fast on other days and fasting on other months can not compensate missed fasts during the month of Ramadan (unless there is sufficient justification). 

3. I believe whoever witnesses the month must fast by default covers the whole month and it clearly means whoever present during the month has an obligation to fast during the month.  There is no need to guess regarding the choices of words Allah should have used in a given circumstance.   Actually the point you noted about Allah mentioning 2 consecutive month fasting for certain sins itself shows the implication of fasting based on "whole month".

Regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Ismail

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Re: FEW DAYS OR THE WHOLE MONTH IN RAMADAN
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2013, 12:34:49 AM »
Salaam.

The hu - pronoun, third person masculine singular refers to its noun Ashshahr - the month (of Ramadan), according to the context.

In 2:183 we are just being introduced to the commandment regarding fasting.

God who knows the workings of our mind, and our timid nature, introduces us to his grand injunction of fasting as though saying: Do not be shocked! the fasting days are not numerous; they are numbered!

Then in the next verse (2:184) the actual number is specified as one whole month.

This type of narration by none other than the Almighty will be taken by the believers, only to mean that the month will actually pass as easily as a very few days!

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.