Marriage eligibility

[Nura]

Salam everyone ..

Hope all of you had a wonderful Eid with friends and family.

I was reading a translation of the Quran the other day and came across a verse that is translated to mean that a non-virgin person cannot marry a virgin person. Such a marriage is haram in Allah's eyes.

But what if a person repents sincerely? Can then a non-virgin( repentant) marry a virgin person? Somehow the translation of the verse seems wrong and also asking someone this question prior to marriage may not yield honest answers as well. I also think this limits the pool of marriageable people significantly.

I don't want to make any transgressing comment so what do you people think?

Thanks ...

[Sardar Miyan]

Can you kindly quote the Verse please?

[Nura]

Surat An-Nur verse 2
Sahih International
The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

Surat An-Nur verse 3
Sahih International
The fornicator does not marry except a [female] fornicator or polytheist, and none marries her except a fornicator or a polytheist, and that has been made unlawful to the believers.

[optimist]

Salaam!

Allama Parwez has interpreted the verse as per the following in his Exposition of the Quran;

Zina or illicit sexual intercourse is not an ordinary offence. If you analyze it carefully, the only woman who would agree to such sexual contact [1] is one who does not consider her chastity to be a permanent value; or who becomes subservient to her passions (instead of the Divine Laws) and surrenders to every urge (45:23).  Similarly, the only man who agrees to having such sexual intercourse is one who surrenders to his passions and does not differentiate between human and animal life.  (Thus Zina can only take place when both the man and woman are driven by similar desires [2] ~ 24:26.  If even one of them wants to remain chaste, there is no possibility of such an act ever taking place.  That is why the punishment for Zina is equal for both, the man and the woman.  Such a relationship is forbidden for Momineen.)

[1]   Here the word (Nikah) means the sexual act, not marriage in the technical sense. The word (Nikah) has also been used in these meanings.

[2] Rape has a different nature; the woman cannot be held guilty in cases of rape and the guilt of man in this case would be twice as much.

Regards,
Optimist

[Nura]

salam optimist..

you said nikah is used 'not in the technical' sense, correct me if I am misunderstanding, are you saying that marriage in the technical sense is ok with fornicators? only fornication is banned for mumin people. But a virgin girl can marry a non-virgin guy (fornicator) or vice versa?

thanks..

[optimist]

salam optimist..

you said nikah is used 'not in the technical' sense, correct me if I am misunderstanding, are you saying that marriage in the technical sense is ok with fornicators? only fornication is banned for mumin people. But a virgin girl can marry a non-virgin guy (fornicator) or vice versa?

thanks..

Wassaam, 

The verse does not refer to prohibition of marriage with fornicators.  In verses 4:23-24 the Quran gives a long list of people we are forbidden to marry.  I believe it can happen a fornicator to amend his/ her ways and lead a decent life.  There are many Muslims and non-Muslims converts, after undergoing a bad phase in their life, realize their mistakes and amend their conduct, and there is nothing to prohibit in Islam to marry them.  However, no Muslim will marry a habitual fornicator since a habitual fornicator can not be a believer.  The Quran makes a point that the marriage has to be for the purpose of  leading a decent, honest, conjugal life and not for the mere satisfaction of one's lust (4:24).  A Muslim has to keep this directive in mind always.  This is my understanding.
 
Regards,
Optimist

[Saba]

[1]   Here the word (Nikah) means the sexual act, not marriage in the technical sense. The word (Nikah) has also been used in these meanings.

Salaam Optimist ....do you have any evidence of this from the Qur'an other than the verse you are applying this meaning to? Saba

[optimist]

Salaam Optimist ....do you have any evidence of this from the Qur'an other than the verse you are applying this meaning to? Saba

Wassalam,

Firstly, kindly focus your attention on the verse under discussion and think about the following points.

1. Can you tell me, as per your understanding, what does the verse actually states?  (a)  Does this verse state a general fact that an adulterer does marry only an adulteress and wise versa?    (b)  Does this verse state that adulterer should marry an adulteress  and wise versa?    Both the above scenario cannot be logical.  In the first case (a) it is possible a habitual adulterer marrying a pious, religious girl and therefore it can be stated as a fact and in the second case (b), there is no question of Allah directing an adulterer to marry only an adulteress and wise versa or directing the state to marry off an adulterer only to an adulteress or mushriq.   

2. If the above two scenario (a) and (b) are taken into consideration, there is no meaning in stating that “this is forbidden unto the believers”.  As I said earlier there are many Muslims and non Muslim converts who have gone through a very bad phase in their life, later realized their mistakes and changed their conduct, and there is nothing to prohibit in Islam to marry them.   Or do you have a case that this verse is related to a habitual adulterer and adulteress? 

3. A fornicator “marrying” another fornicator has no meaning.

Now, before I provide you evidence from Quran for the meaning other than “marriage”, please note, The Arabic word for marriage and sexual intercourse is the same: nikah.

Federico Corriente, A Dictionary of Andalusi Arabic, BRILL, 1997, p. 539
{NKH}: VA yankah nakah nikah nakih mankuh k to have sexual intercourse || nantakah antakaht to be possessed sexually || nastankah istinkah k to solicit for sex || (‘uqdat an)nikah IQ nikah AL nicah GL nikahun marriage, wedlock | nikahun muharramun incest | MT ‘aqd nikah marriage contract || VA mankahah prostitute || mankuhah + at sexually possessed (of a woman) || IQ manakih wedded women.

Please check the following link for information.  http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Meaning_of_Nikah

Evidence from Quran:-

In verse 24:60 it mentioned about women advanced in years who no longer feel any sexual desire لَا يَرْجُونَ نِكَاحًا <la yarjoona nikaahan.  Let me quote Muhammed Asad translation below and explain the point.

AND [know that] women advanced in years, who no longer feel any sexual desire, incur no sin if they discard their [outer] garments, provided they do not aim at a showy display of [their] charms. (24:60)

LOGICALLY,  based on traditional understanding of the verse,  it would mean that, only those who DO NOT wish to marry are exempted.  What will happen if someone does not wish to marry but have sexual desire?    I hope you can understand the contradiction here.  THINK.   Muhammed Asad has given the best interpretation of the verse.

Regards,
Optimist

[Joseph Islam]

Dear all,

As-salam alaykum

Just as an additional note that may assist this thread is that I feel it is important to remember that these individuals are 'believers' who have been 'convicted' (24:2) of 'zina' i.e. found guilty. This can be clearly ascertained through the context of the verses. This is not a small matter. 

Therefore, what someone may or may not have done before coming to Islam is irrelevant.  Also, this arguably does not apply to those that have not been 'convicted' by a just community of believers and have been the recipient of the punishment of a proven crime.

Such an indictment would have involved a public trial and humiliation and stripes / lashes (24:2) if a guilt was found. To pronounce someone guilty, a requirement of appropriate witnesses would have to be fulfilled (24:4) and in the absence of such witnesses, between husband and wife, an individual witness would have sufficed (24:6) with the additional curse upon themselves if they are to be lying about their testimony (24:7).

I do agree that much of our interpretation does depend on the 'assumptions' we make. However, I always feel it important to allow the Quran to speak for itself as best we can.

Regards,
Joseph.

[optimist]

Dear all,

As-salam alaykum

Just as an additional note that may assist this thread is that I feel it is important to remember that these individuals are 'believers' who have been 'convicted' (24:2) of 'zina' i.e. found guilty. This can be clearly ascertained through the context of the verses. This is not a small matter. 

Wassalam,

I believe there is nothing in verse 24:3 to suggest that the  adulterer and adulteress mentioned in 24:3 is related to those individuals who have been found guilty, convicted and punished  (24:2).  I think it is a general statement regarding adulterer and adulteress (whether they are caught, found guilty or not).

Regards
Optimist

[optimist]

Salaam,

I would like to add one more comment with my following comments in an earlier post.

Let me quote Muhammed Asad translation below and explain the point.
AND [know that] women advanced in years, who no longer feel any sexual desire, incur no sin if they discard their [outer] garments, provided they do not aim at a showy display of [their] charms. (24:60)

LOGICALLY,  based on traditional understanding of the verse,  it would mean that, only those who DO NOT wish to marry are exempted.  What will happen if someone does not wish to marry but have sexual desire?    I hope you can understand the contradiction here.  THINK.   Muhammed Asad has given the best interpretation of the verse.

There is also another important point to be considered.  If we translate the word nikah as marriage here, it would mean that the permission to relax the dress code is given only to UNMARRIED elder women and THAT TOO  women who do not have any intention or desire to get married.   It would effectively mean that more than 95% of elder women (whatever be their age) cannot  enjoy the exemption provided in the verse.   Only a handful of women can enjoy the benefit.   And also, logically, it is not convincing why different rules for elder women based on desire to "marry".   I prefer to go with Muhammed Asad translation “who no longer feel any sexual desire” instead of traditional understanding of “marriage”

Regards
Optimist

[Joseph Islam]

I believe there is nothing in verse 24:3 to suggest that the  adulterer and adulteress mentioned in 24:3 is related to those individuals who have been found guilty, convicted and punished  (24:2).  I think it is a general statement regarding adulterer and adulteress (whether they are caught, found guilty or not).

Dear brother Abdul Samad / Optimist,

Wa alaikum assalam

I would have to strongly disagree with your statement for the following reasons:

• We have context of the verse which has a consistent theme
• How would believers know that someone was a 'zani'? When the guilt of false allegation attracts a serious punishment (24:4), to recognise someone as a 'zani' would need to have been proven.

I would strongly, yet respectfully contend with the proposition that verse 24:3 needs to removed from context and taken as a general statement unless of course, one is attempting to reconcile a perspective with another extraneous source / opinion.

With respect, we will just have to respectfully agree to disagree as we have done many times. Readers of course can make their own minds up based on their own scrutiny of the evidence / verses.

Brother Abdul Samad (Optimist), you are already aware of my contentions with Ghulam Parwez's readings / interpretations and your persistent indiscriminate use of his views on this forum in the past. I only mention the latter as you have once again cited him in a manner contrary to our repeated agreements and your repeated infringements of the forum policy 2(f). Please can I once again kindly ask you to honour your commitment and our mutual understanding.

With respect as always,
Joseph. 

[Nura]

salam brother Joseph,

The discussions in this forum has helped me a lot and I would like to thank everyone for their input, but in this particular case brother joseph could you please clarify, if a virgin person knows that another non-mahram person is not a virgin, then is it allowed for the virgin person to marry the non-virgin person? Even if the non-virgin person was not evicted but just confided his/her secret to the virgin person before marriage? how should the virgin person then take the directive of verse 24:3?

thank you..

p.s.
I would like to add, islam sees marriage and sex as inseperable, so any mention of  sexual activity is assumed to be taking place in a marriage. and also I believe that when Allah uses the word nikaah, He means lawful sexual relations which can only take place in a marriage. If a person, is not married, he/she is asked to lower his/her gaze, fast and also cover body parts that are arousing. The elderly women  married or not, who have lost the ability of arousing sexual desires in men can put off some of their clothes and there is no sin when they do it, provided it does not result in indecent exposure of body parts.

[optimist]

Salaam!

Let us forget about Parwez and his explanations.  Parwez can not be the final word in understandng of the Quran.  He is just a human being and he can go wrong.  However, it is our duty to understand the verse correctly.   Therefore, apart from a valid question Nura has asked above, I have the following questions. 

1. If it is a direction not to marry an adulterer or adulteress what will happen if a married man or woman found guilty of adultery? whether the existing marriage will be nullified due to the directive in 24:3, i.e, whether it is mandatory for the partner to seek divorce from the one found guilty of adultery??

2. If Muslims are prophibited to marry an adulteror or adulteress convicted for adultery, it would mean that this is an additional punishment  for them over and above 100 lashes mentioned in 24:2.  In other words, a lifetime punishment for them prohibiting them to get married except those similiary found guilty and a mushriq.   How justified this understanding as per verse 24:2? 

3. There is an element of forgiveness clearly mentioned in chapter 25:68-71,  where Allah promises forgiveness to those involved in adultery, if there is true repentance as tested by a changed life in conduct, and the verse states this will transform the life of the repentant from evil to good.   This being the fact, how come a life-time punishment prohibiting to get married (except with those similarly found guilty and mushriq) could be attracted against those who found guilty of adultery?

Expecting comments from you based on your time and convenience.

Regards
Optimist

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Nura,

Wa alaikum assalam.

Firstly, I would like to concur with your overall sentiments in your 'Post Scriptum' (PS).

'Sexual intercourse' is only permissible for believers through a lawful institution of marriage which includes a 'meethaqan galezaan' (solemn covenant) - 4:21 between consenting mature individuals, dower (4:25), witnesses et al.

With respect to your question, arguably, if a sin has not been made manifest and a believer has truly repented, then there is scope to infer guidance from other verses of the Quran which speak about true repentance, forgiveness and a complete amendment of one’s lewd ways.

God is most merciful and true repentance is a key maxim that is encouraged throughout the Quran.

039:053
Say, "O My slaves, those who have transgressed against themselves (by sinning), do not despair of the mercy of God. Indeed, God forgives all (jami'an) sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

025:068-70
"And those who do not invoke upon another god with Allah and do not kill the soul which God has forbidden except by right (in the requirements of justice), and (who) do not commit fornication (yaznuna) and whoever does this shall find a penalty. The punishment shall be doubled to him on the day of resurrection, and he shall abide therein humiliated; Except him who repents and believes and does righteous deeds; so these are they of whom God changes the evil deeds to good ones; and God is Forgiving, Merciful."

Just to note that albeit 'nikaah' refers to a lawful institute of marriage, brother Abdul Samad (Optimist) is not incorrect in stating that linguistically 'nikaah' can also mean 'sexual intercourse / coitus' implying sexual desire. This has long been discussed by classical authorities and such musings have always been available to ardent students of the language to read and infer. Arguably, verse 24:20 captures such a nuance.

However, if we read 'nikaah' as 'sexual intercourse' (literally) in verse 24:3 in an isolated sense as it seems to have been asserted earlier in this thread, then the following verse would seem to sanction illicit coitus. This would be an unacceptable inference.

"The fornicator (zani) shall not 'have sexual intercourse' with any but a fornicatress or idolatress (mushrikatan)".

Hence this is why I completely reject the notion of reading this passage in an isolated sense.

Dear Nura, please also note my responses to brother Abdul Samad / Optimist [2] & [3] below which attempt to contextualise the nature of a 'zani' in this regards. This is arguably not someone who has repented from their ways and leads a wholesome, chaste existence for the sake of God.

Ultimately, the marriage institution is a sacred institute between a husband and wife and one should always attempt to seek bonds with those that are practicing believers wholly cognizant of their religion and those who strive to remain chaste in the broadest sense possible.

I hope this helps, God willing.
Joseph.