Response to A. Ismail Sait : Islamic State

[Ismail]

Salaam.

The focus of Prophets' endeavors was never the achievement of power.

We are their followers.

3:78 is not an injunction to strive to achieve the power to rule.

4:75 is addressed to an Islamic State.



Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

Salaam.

The focus of Prophets' endeavors was never the achievement of power.

1. Will you agree with me Prophet endeavored to follow and to put into practice each and every commandments contained in the Quran? 
2. Do you think that, in the absense of power to rule, the prophet could have managed to into practice all commandments contained in the Quran?

3:78 is not an injunction to strive to achieve the power to rule.

Again you are ignoring my question.  How can you follow all Allah's commandments, say for instance, the criminal laws of Islam without the power to rule?

4:75 is addressed to an Islamic State.

Alhamdulillah you finally mentioned "Islamic state".   

1. Who established this Islamic State?
2. Who is responsible to establish this Islamic state?

Regards,
Optimist

[optimist]

While I wait for your comments for the above, since I find that short questions are useful to keep us focused on the topic, one small comment.

According to what you have posted all along;

1. Islamic State will be declared only when God grants us the power for it. 
2. There is no injunction in the Quran to strive to form an Islamic State.

An analogy can be found in the following (assuming, not admitting your analysis);

1. It is said in Quran “when I am ill, it is He (Allah) Who cures me.  وَإِذَا مَرِضْتُ فَهُوَ يَشْفِينِ
2. No where it is mentioned in the Quran when we are sick to visit a doctor and get treatment. 

Do you think that according to the Quran we are not supposed to go to doctor?

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

1. Will you agree with me Prophet endeavored to follow and to put into practice each and every commandments contained in the Quran?
2. Do you think that, in the absense of power to rule, the prophet could have managed to into practice all commandments contained in the Quran?

The Prophet never endeavored to put into practice whatever was not applicable to him.

How can you follow all Allah's commandments, say for instance, the criminal laws of Islam without the power to rule?

I do not know.

1. Who established this Islamic State?
2. Who is responsible to establish this Islamic state?

1. The Prophet established an Islamic State.
2. Al Qur'an: 22:39-41.

1. It is said in Quran “when I am ill, it is He (Allah) Who cures me.  وَإِذَا مَرِضْتُ فَهُوَ يَشْفِينِ
2. No where it is mentioned in the Quran when we are sick to visit a doctor and get treatment.

Do you think that according to the Quran we are not supposed to go to doctor?

1. The Truth! Must be etched on the walls of all medical colleges, hospitals, and dispensaries.
2. Looks like, God disapproves commercialization of sickness.

Do you think that according to the Qur'an we are not supposed to go to doctor?

Depends on personal discretion. Ultimately, it is He who cures. 


Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

Salaam.

1. Will you agree with me Prophet endeavored to follow and to put into practice each and every commandments contained in the Quran?
2. Do you think that, in the absense of power to rule, the prophet could have managed to into practice all commandments contained in the Quran?

The Prophet never endeavored to put into practice whatever was not applicable to him.

Wassalam,

Any examples?? (keeping also in mind the responsibility of the prophet to discharge his responsibilities and duties being the head of the Divinely-ordained System) 

How can you follow all Allah's commandments, say for instance, the criminal laws of Islam without the power to rule?

I do not know.

I was expecting this answer from you.

1. Who established this Islamic State?
2. Who is responsible to establish this Islamic state?

1. The Prophet established an Islamic State.
2. Al Qur'an: 22:39-41.

1. Why prophet established an Islamic State (since according to you there is no instruction or injunction in the Quran to establish Islamic state)?
2. There is no clarify here for your comment.  Verse 22:39-41 in short states; Permission to take up arms is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged...Those who have been driven out from their homes unjustly, only because they said, 'Our Lord is God......; Those who, if We establish them in the earth, will observe Prayer and pay the Zakat and enjoin good and forbid evil. 

My question was who is responsible to establish  this Islamic state.  Since you yourself admit that it was prophet and his companions who established the Islamic state initially, now in the absense of prophet, whether this responsibility is taken away by Allah from the Muslims?

1. It is said in Quran “when I am ill, it is He (Allah) Who cures me.  وَإِذَا مَرِضْتُ فَهُوَ يَشْفِينِ
2. No where it is mentioned in the Quran when we are sick to visit a doctor and get treatment.

Do you think that according to the Quran we are not supposed to go to doctor?

1. The Truth! Must be etched on the walls of all medical colleges, hospitals, and dispensaries.
2. Looks like, God disapproves commercialization of sickness.

Depends on personal discretion. Ultimately, it is He who cures. 

Thanks for highlighting that in a unislamic system (where people are allowed to hoard wealth, own land and private property, and everything is commercialized) going to a doctor may be a burden on the common man who himself has to arrange the money for the treatment and sometimes it may be even dangerous to visit doctors who are focused on how much money they can collect from you rather than on your disease.   However, the fact remains that Allah will not cure your disease unless you take proper steps to treat you disease.  Since it is Allah who has done the arrangement to cure any disease and therefore it is HE who ultimately cures. 

Anyhow, your comments were slightly off-focused.  The point I wanted to convey focusing this analogy was to show you that,  though it is ultimately Allah who grants us power to rule, it is not given to anyone from the sky on a fine morning.  The power to rule will be given to those who are focused on this goal and work and strive hard.   The fact remains that Allah will not change the condition of any people on a fine morning without any human effort.

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Any examples?? (keeping also in mind the responsibility of the prophet to discharge his responsibilities and duties being the head of the Divinely-ordained System)

Any example? Why? The example of the Islamic State of Medina will suffice.

The Prophet established it only when he got the temporal power to do it. It was only then that he took up the responsibility of administration as the Head of State.

My question was who is responsible to establish  this Islamic state.  Since you yourself admit that it was prophet and his companions who established the Islamic state initially, now in the absense of prophet, whether this responsibility is taken away by Allah from the Muslims?

Since Divine Jurisprudence is part of Al Qur'an, we must enforce it when we get temporal power. That is our Prophet's Sunnah.

Anyhow, your comments were slightly off-focused.  The point I wanted to convey focusing this analogy was to show you that,  though it is ultimately Allah who grants us power to rule, it is not given to anyone from the sky on a fine morning.  The power to rule will be given to those who are focused on this goal and work and strive hard.  The fact remains that Allah will not change the condition of any people on a fine morning without any human effort.

Nobody focuses on sickness and its treatment. People focus only on their health. They try to live as well as possible. Only when faced with any eventuality, they look for available resources, according to their affordability, etc. That is all. Not even the most powerful man on earth is equipped to face any eventuality, especially regarding his health.

The quest for power is not part of Islam.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

Since Divine Jurisprudence is part of Al Qur'an, we must enforce it when we get temporal power. That is our Prophet's Sunnah.

The quest for power is not part of Islam.

Your above two comments contradict each other.  On the one hand,  you admit that the prophet established an Islamic state with power to rule and on the other hand you say quest for power is not part of Islam.  Getting temporal power??  You may spend an everlasting wait for any aliens or angels to get for Muslims power.

The Quran places much stress on the “sword” (power). The Quran is the constitution and the sword is its defense.  And the Quran is the custodian of the sword in order to ensure that it is never raised unjustly.  The Quraish raised its military might against the Jamaat for a number of years, but with time the Quraish began to fall one by one. 

.....And (in the end) the last remnant of those folk who had been bent on evildoing was wiped out 6:45

As a result, the Muslim Jamaat looked forward to a brighter future 39:69

Suffice to say that, in the light of the Quran (and to paraphrase Allama Iqbal), power that is not tempered by Deen is deadlier than poison; and power that is in the guardianship of Deen is the antidote to all poisons.

This is my final post here.   I leave it to the readers to decide the merit of the arguments.

Assalamu alaikum

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

6:45, is about how God destroyed the opponents of truth, after it had been made clear to them, and after they had been given adequate respite to think and reflect.

Mostly, it was by through what people call Natural Calamities. Actually it was divine punishment.

Sometimes the punishment is at the hands of the true followers of God's Prophets. And the power is Providential. Prophets' mission is never power-focused. (9:52)

39:46 is about life after death.

See the contexts of both verses in Al Qur'an

Rrgards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

Sometimes the punishment is at the hands of the true followers of God's Prophets. And the power is Providential. Prophets' mission is never power-focused. (9:52)

Repeatedly quoting verses out of context can not help you.  As a final note, a clue to prophet's mission can be found in the following verse (6:135), if you have 'heart' (not eyes);

[Mohammed Asad] Say: "O my [unbelieving] people! Do yet all that may be within your power, [while] I, behold, shall labour [in God's way]; and in time you will come to know to whom the future belongs. Verily, never will evildoers attain to a happy state!"

[Parwez] O Rasool tell your people “You may do whatever you choose; I will not interfere. On the other hand, do not interfere in My programme. The results will soon show to whom success will eventually belong. Allah’s law is that Z’alimeen can never prosper.” 

[Shabbir]  Say (to the opponents O Messenger), "O My people! Do all that is in your power. Behold, I am working. Very soon, you will come to know for which of us is the ultimate success. Violators of human rights will never be successful."

[Pickthall] Say (O Muhammad): O my people! Work according to your power. Lo! I too am working. Thus ye will come to know for which of us will be the happy sequel. Lo! the wrong-doers will not be successful.

[Maududi] Say (O Muhammad!): ´O people! Work in your place; and I too am at work. Soon you will know in whose favour the ultimate decision will be. Surely the wrong-doers will not prosper.´

Assalamu alaikum
Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

salaam.

I have not quoted 9:52 out of context.

The defeat of the forces of evil is in God's hands. Our mission is not power-focused.

6:135 only means, come what may, we will not budge from the right path. We will always remain focused on consistency and steadfastness in pursuing Allah's guidance, in spite of enemy provocations, and never will we transgress limits. You (ie; Islam's enemies) are power-focused, and so devoid of Spirituality.

Verse 6:135, in no way proves that Islam is power-focused.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

Salaam!

Don’t play with words and try to create a wrong impression to others that it is my view that the prophet’s mission was only focused on POWER TO RULE.   What I was stating all along is that the prophet established Islamic government (you also agree), and in the absence of power to rule, the prophet could not have managed to into practice all commandments contained in the Quran.  And therefore, for the establishment of an Islamic State (in order to implement all Quranic Laws), the prophet and his companions (by default) strived hard for Power.  Even your answer was “I do not know” when I asked you how it is possible to carry out criminal laws of the Quran without power to rule.  Indirectly you yourself was admitting that power to rule is necessary to put into practice the criminal laws of Islam.   

6:135 only means, come what may, we will not budge from the right path. We will always remain focused on consistency and steadfastness in pursuing Allah's guidance, in spite of enemy provocations, and never will we transgress limits. You (ie; Islam's enemies) are power-focused, and so devoid of Spirituality.

You are giving strange and foolish interpretation for 6:135.   Did prophet and Sahabas lost spiritually when they established an Islamic government with power to rule???

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

....And therefore, for the establishment of an Islamic State (in order to implement all Quranic Laws), the prophet and his companions (by default) strived hard for Power.

Never!

They enforced Qur'anic Jurisprudence through governmental authority, only after they were given power.

It is just like the one who takes upon himself, and strives hard to fulfill the responsibilities of maintenance and education of his children only after he is blessed with children.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

It is just like the one who takes upon himself, and strives hard to fulfill the responsibilities of maintenance and education of his children only after he is blessed with children.

Salaam!

Establishment of an Islamic state is not as simple as making children......I will give you a more appropriate example.

.....It is just like striving hard to build/ construct an school with all necessary infrastructure, faculties and facilities under very difficult conditions and after its establishment, striving hard to run, manage and maintain the same as a model school  (same like you have to put-in lot of efforts to establish a model school, you have to put-in lot of efforts to manage and maintain it.)

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

My post has nothing to with "making children".

Cultivating a decent society does not involve cultivating a Defense Establishment.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.