Quran presenting a different Geography for the Exodus

[razorrahmo]

Many of you are familiar with the Exodus story of Moses and Pharaoh and the freedom of the Israelites

There is little to Zero archaeological evidence for the exodus of the large number of Israelites from Egypt to Palestine. No signs of pottery or items or any evidence of a large influx of people into Palestine. No evidence of a revolutionary Israelite leader bringing them across the Red Sea.

In Arabia the Untold Story, the authors ascertain that the author of the Quran’s description of the Exodus describes a very different type of exodus on a different land.

1) The author of the Quran always talks about the people of Ad, Thamud and Firaun together as if to indicate that they are a sequential timeline of civilizations within a proximate area. (38:22, 85:17, 89:6)

2) The author never mentions anything about Pyramids or slaves building grand structures for Firaun and neither does the Old Testament. (No mention of Israelite slaves in Egyptian Monuments as well)

3) The author mentions “Misr/Mitzraim” as the name while ancient Egypt was never known by this name. Kemet was the very old name for the region and the later Arabic was “Qibt”. Greek Aegyptos. (43:51)

4) The word “Fir’aun”/Faraoun is an Arabic word which means chieftain while ancient Egyptian kings were never called pharaohs. (Eg. Neb-Bahti-Ra, Jsr-Ka–Ra..etc but no pharaoh. Coincidentally, the author never uses any plural for Firaun and the king in Joseph’s story (also possibly on the same land) is referred to as “Azeez” (King) and not pharaoh as well.

5) Man in Firaun’s court mentions the fate of past nations of Aad and Thamud. (40:28) Doesn’t make sense if the place is Egypt and he is talking about other nations from other areas.

6) Firaun tells his people that he knows of no other Lord for his people than himself. (28:38) The Egyptian kings however worshipped many gods and goddesses.

7) Firaun orders Haman to fire up mud clay to make a high platform to see Moses’s God. (28:38) Such building methodology was never used in Egypt.

Firaun’s soldier who goes in search of the escaping Israelites refers to them as a “small band”. (26:53) Nowhere near the huge number that is understood today.

9) Firaun’s soliders are able to see Israelites at the other end of the Stream crossing. (26:52). This is definitely not possible on the Red Sea.

10) God struck the land of Misr with a earthquake and Fir’aun’s buildings and grand structures are levelled to the ground (7:137). But all the grand Egyptian Monuments and Pyramids are still standing tall today.

11) After Firaun’s forces are drowned, The Children of Israel inherit the SAME land of gardens and springs that Firaun ruled and his body is preserved in the drowning for them to see. (26:53-59) The Israelites never took over Egypt and no evidence of any Egyptian king drowning the Red Sea.

What are your views? Could the theatre of events and the land on which they happened been corrupted by the later Roman Emperors as it could have by the Greeks in the Septuagint Bible? Are we believing the correct story accepting that Moses (pbuh) was in Egypt despite the complete lack of evidence for any Israelite mirgration from Egypt to Palestine.

[Star]

This is rather unrelated, but it has to do with the Bible. The Quran says in 5:43 and similar verses that the Jews should judge by the Torah, the Christians by the Bible, etc. But in 2:89 it says to follow the Quran, which confirms the Bible and the Torah. So which one are Christians and Jews supposed to follow?

Also, the Bible has had a lot of stuff added to it today. So Christians should follow the un-modified version of the Bible, but it's not really available these days, is it?

What should Christians and Jews follow? God has prescribed a law for all people to follow, which is submission to Him, but other than that, He says different communities have different rules. The truth comes in many forms. Which is the law for Christians and Jews, the Quran or their own religious books?

[Hamzeh]

Peace Mia666

As you know to each people God has ordained a Law and a Path. That was deliberately and intentionally done by God so He can test us all in what he has given us(5:48). Believing in what God has given each people individually to me is one thing. And to believe in all of them collectively with real faith that they have guidance in them is another. At times one may be very familiar with what is there own inherited teachings. And does not go that extra mile to see what other messages that are out there that could be given to other people from God.

God did not tell the Jews and Christians to abandon there true teachings. The Quran challenges the invented lies that was read into their Scriptures. God repeatedly tells the Prophet Muhammad to tell the People of the Book to desist from the inventions they added in Gods name and to go back to their source and judge by what was given to them.

There were some among the People of the Book who were not on the right path. If your read 5:41-43 you will see clearly these are disbelieving Jews who did not even accept there own Message. God is just telling the Prophet to use his logic, why would someone come to you for judgment when they have their own guidance(Torah) and they disbelieved in that. Aren't they both from God authorized? What would make you think they will believe in the Quran? They disbelieved in the Torah why would they believe in the Quran, the overall message is the same but they are just simple disbelievers.

Many verses the Quran instructs the People of the Book to go back to their true teachings of the Scriptures, and not follow what they invented. That is a way and far better approach and they will be believers. At the same time God tells them to not disbelieve in what has come down from God to another community (Muhammads people) which is a confirmation of the what they hold.

In my opinion a true believer does not have arrogance. He can admit there could be better or the like of himself.  If a message was to become made clear to people they are expected to believe in it. Especially if its a confirmation of what is with you and you regard it as truth.

For example the verse you are mentioning:

2:89  And when a scripture came to them from God, confirming what they have  -- although previously they were seeking victory against those who disbelieved-but when there came to them what they recognized, they disbelieved in it. So God's curse is upon the disbelievers.

I believe that what is meant by the term recognized is that they recognized that God has spoken again.

Sometimes you can recognize someone even if you don't see him. You can recognize by his voice, his actions, his hand writing, his techniques, his rhythm, his speech, attitude etc.

In this case to the People of the Book, they had recognized that God has revealed another message to another people who are not from their own kind. The know very well that this is from God. The message that was given to Prophet Muhammad.

I think its important to understand the difference between Believing and Following the Quran. I do think that if the Quran was to be made clear to the People of the Book then they are expected to accept it as truth from God and not to say that God only brought them a guidance and the Quran is not from God simply because it did not come to them through their own kind.

I would like to share what Joseph Islam has written about a similar topic about what the People of the Book should follow.

Without intending to become overly complex in providing you with a humble response, it should be noted, that the main thrust of theses verses that you share is to emphasise that there was an expectation for the Christian and Jews at the time of the Prophetic ministry, to follow their Scriptures sent by God with sincerity, faithfulness and in truth.

They were expected to be judged by the laws in these Scriptures.  After all, all such Divinely inspired teachings are ultimately from Him.

However, in my humble opinion, it can be safely posited that from a Quran's perspective at least, there is no ‘explicit’ requirement for those of the people of the Book that follow their revelations correctly and in truth, to simply abandon them. For example, the Jews are not expected to abandon their laws, such as keeping the Sabbath or any other religious observances. However, they are expected to accept the veracity of the Quran as a revelation from God once the truth of it has been completely manifested to them. This remains key.

Whether today's Jews and Christians with their numerous sects are following their Books justly, or in truth, is a totally different matter and would require a very detailed discussion which is outside the scope of this response.

For example, was it ever the intention of the Gospels to remove Mosaic laws such as the keeping of the Sabbath or abstinence from consuming swine flesh or was its intention to keep to the laws strictly? (5:46) What are the justifications given by certain Christians to abandon those laws and are such justifications correct / cogent? (etc)

The Quran also challenges errant theologies, but at the same stroke refers the People of the Book back to their Books. This somewhat  implies that these errant theologies (such as the alleged relationship of prophet Jesus and God) are not necessarily sourced / supported by these Scriptures and are ‘arguably’ errant beliefs which are read into the scriptures without warrant.

As you can see, this will become a very complicated matter requiring detailed scrutiny and discussion. However, the emphasis to keep to their scriptures in truth remains imperative, regardless.

As far as your question regarding ‘conversion’ is concerned; if one prefers to follow Islam underpinned by the Quranic way of life as a righteous, committed believer, then this should not necessarily be seen as a contradiction of verses 5:44-47. It can be posited as an option though not an 'expectation' as is usually the belief of the traditional masses. That I feel, is the difference.

I hope that clarifies, God willing

Also if you have a new question or want to discuss something not relating to the thread your reading you should try to start a new one so people don't get confused, 

Peace