Messages

136

General Discussions / Re: Islamic country or Muslim country - Food for thought.

« on: December 16, 2013, 04:17:59 AM »

Click the following link, sit back, and think!:

Salam!

Thank you for the post and nice to go through the text you have posted.

Actually it is a Quranic truth that, the humanity, ultimately, however long time it may take, by dint of its own experiments and observation, will ultimately reach the Divine Order which has the responsibility for nourishing all humanity.  Scholars like Parwez have given beautiful analysis of this fact based on the Quran.   I will briefly extract below (just some points only from a long discussion) some comments from The Quranic System Of Sustenance, written by G.A Parwez (to reduce the post I have omitted several points discussed, some points even from the middle of the discussion below)

......................................................................
In the last fourteen hundred years we have witnessed that humanity is gradually letting go of false ideals. We can see that humanity is gradually beginning to accept the same truths that the Quran has propounded all along.  As an example the Quran condemned monarchy as a falsehood fourteen hundred years ago.  It explained that no human had the right to rule another, and that people should adopt the principle of mutual consultation to manage their everyday affairs.   Along with monarchy the Quran has also denounced the institute of priesthood, which again has a false basis.  It tells us that there is no need for an intercessor between people and God. Today priesthood has lost much of its former grip on humanity.  The Quran has likewise taught that slavery is blot on the face of humanity.  It declares that all humans are created equal and every one is equal by virtue of having a common origin (4:1). In this century we have taken strides in eliminating slavery across the world. The Quran states that division by colour, caste, language and ethnicity is utterly unacceptable and all human beings belong to one family and one ummah (nation).  Today the world’s people are accepting this as a universal truth. 

All these changes are happening gradually and automatically.  This is the law that the Quran terms Sunnat-Allah or ‘habit of God’ (or, in the words of Iqbal, the subtle signs of nature).  It is this law that determines which ideas and systems will persevere, and which of them will be terminated (13:39).  In short the law dictates that those who live by falsehood will forge the instrument of their demise with their own hands, whilst the truth will out.  In the words of the Quran;

Nay, We hurl the truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain (i.e. psychology), and behold, falsehood perishes! Ah! Woe upon you for the (false) things you ascribe (to Us) (21:18)

All that is of universal benefit to humanity will persevere, and that which is not universally beneficial will perish and be set aside (13:17)

Hence, the divine system of Rabbubiya must inevitably come to pass.  But just as humanity generally progresses at an evolutionary rate, it follows that divine revolution, if left to Nature, will also arrive at the evolutionary rate; and since it will advance at the evolutionary rate, in the meantime humans will continue to suffer unnecessarily.  (Nevertheless there are signs at present to suggest that the time of this revolution is not far off).  If humanity accepts the teachings of revelation and adopts its programme willingly, not only will we save time but we will spare ourselves from a more bloody revolution.  Conversely, it humanity continues to choose its own way and waste time on fruitless social experiments, then it will take much longer to reach its higher destination.  In the words of Iqbal, “Revelation creates ease for human effort”.  The Quran states;

O man! There is absolutely no doubt that by dint of your own experiments and observation, you will ultimately reach the Divine Order which has the responsibility for nourishing all humanity.  However, this shall happen only after a lot of striving and strenuous effort. (In contrast, under the guidance of Wahi that stage can be reached in a much shorter time, with minimum effort. It economizes human effort. (84:6)

It is also true that when humanity makes mistakes it usually learns from them, and yet the full picture of the truth continues to elude us; hence we continue to feel our way through the dark, always unsure which of our choices will take us in the right direction.  However, if humanity chooses to adopt the divine programme, then prosperity and success is guaranteed in the near future.  The Quran is designed such that the thinking people can easily recognize the merit of the guidance it has provided for every potential issue.  Hence it states;

In time we shall make them (those who think) fully understand Our signs in the utmost horizons (of the world) and within themselves (their own nation), so that it will become clear unto them that this (revelation) is indeed the truth. 41:53.

The Quran also confidently asserts that try as we might, no one can actually find a valid argument against its claims on the basis of human knowledge.

[Humankind] has no evidence [to deny the existence of God and His Laws] 23:117

This is a bold challenge and it is reiterated in the Quran many times.  This is because the Quran’s claims are not based on presumptions or any speculative concepts but are based on Divine knowledge and wisdom.
........................................................................

Regards,
Optimist

137

General Discussions / Re: Response to A. Ismail Sait : Islamic State

« on: December 16, 2013, 03:54:04 AM »

Since Divine Jurisprudence is part of Al Qur'an, we must enforce it when we get temporal power. That is our Prophet's Sunnah.

The quest for power is not part of Islam.

Your above two comments contradict each other.  On the one hand,  you admit that the prophet established an Islamic state with power to rule and on the other hand you say quest for power is not part of Islam.  Getting temporal power??  You may spend an everlasting wait for any aliens or angels to get for Muslims power.

The Quran places much stress on the “sword” (power). The Quran is the constitution and the sword is its defense.  And the Quran is the custodian of the sword in order to ensure that it is never raised unjustly.  The Quraish raised its military might against the Jamaat for a number of years, but with time the Quraish began to fall one by one. 

.....And (in the end) the last remnant of those folk who had been bent on evildoing was wiped out 6:45

As a result, the Muslim Jamaat looked forward to a brighter future 39:69

Suffice to say that, in the light of the Quran (and to paraphrase Allama Iqbal), power that is not tempered by Deen is deadlier than poison; and power that is in the guardianship of Deen is the antidote to all poisons.

This is my final post here.   I leave it to the readers to decide the merit of the arguments.

Assalamu alaikum

Regards,
Optimist

138

General Discussions / Re: Response to A. Ismail Sait : Islamic State

« on: December 15, 2013, 05:03:39 PM »

Salaam.

1. Will you agree with me Prophet endeavored to follow and to put into practice each and every commandments contained in the Quran?
2. Do you think that, in the absense of power to rule, the prophet could have managed to into practice all commandments contained in the Quran?

The Prophet never endeavored to put into practice whatever was not applicable to him.

Wassalam,

Any examples?? (keeping also in mind the responsibility of the prophet to discharge his responsibilities and duties being the head of the Divinely-ordained System) 

How can you follow all Allah's commandments, say for instance, the criminal laws of Islam without the power to rule?

I do not know.

I was expecting this answer from you.

1. Who established this Islamic State?
2. Who is responsible to establish this Islamic state?

1. The Prophet established an Islamic State.
2. Al Qur'an: 22:39-41.

1. Why prophet established an Islamic State (since according to you there is no instruction or injunction in the Quran to establish Islamic state)?
2. There is no clarify here for your comment.  Verse 22:39-41 in short states; Permission to take up arms is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged...Those who have been driven out from their homes unjustly, only because they said, 'Our Lord is God......; Those who, if We establish them in the earth, will observe Prayer and pay the Zakat and enjoin good and forbid evil. 

My question was who is responsible to establish  this Islamic state.  Since you yourself admit that it was prophet and his companions who established the Islamic state initially, now in the absense of prophet, whether this responsibility is taken away by Allah from the Muslims?

1. It is said in Quran “when I am ill, it is He (Allah) Who cures me.  وَإِذَا مَرِضْتُ فَهُوَ يَشْفِينِ
2. No where it is mentioned in the Quran when we are sick to visit a doctor and get treatment.

Do you think that according to the Quran we are not supposed to go to doctor?

1. The Truth! Must be etched on the walls of all medical colleges, hospitals, and dispensaries.
2. Looks like, God disapproves commercialization of sickness.

Depends on personal discretion. Ultimately, it is He who cures. 

Thanks for highlighting that in a unislamic system (where people are allowed to hoard wealth, own land and private property, and everything is commercialized) going to a doctor may be a burden on the common man who himself has to arrange the money for the treatment and sometimes it may be even dangerous to visit doctors who are focused on how much money they can collect from you rather than on your disease.   However, the fact remains that Allah will not cure your disease unless you take proper steps to treat you disease.  Since it is Allah who has done the arrangement to cure any disease and therefore it is HE who ultimately cures. 

Anyhow, your comments were slightly off-focused.  The point I wanted to convey focusing this analogy was to show you that,  though it is ultimately Allah who grants us power to rule, it is not given to anyone from the sky on a fine morning.  The power to rule will be given to those who are focused on this goal and work and strive hard.   The fact remains that Allah will not change the condition of any people on a fine morning without any human effort.

Regards,
Optimist

139

General Discussions / Re: Response to A. Ismail Sait : Islamic State

« on: December 14, 2013, 09:31:31 PM »

While I wait for your comments for the above, since I find that short questions are useful to keep us focused on the topic, one small comment.

According to what you have posted all along;

1. Islamic State will be declared only when God grants us the power for it. 
2. There is no injunction in the Quran to strive to form an Islamic State.

An analogy can be found in the following (assuming, not admitting your analysis);

1. It is said in Quran “when I am ill, it is He (Allah) Who cures me.  وَإِذَا مَرِضْتُ فَهُوَ يَشْفِينِ
2. No where it is mentioned in the Quran when we are sick to visit a doctor and get treatment. 

Do you think that according to the Quran we are not supposed to go to doctor?

Regards,
Optimist

140

General Discussions / Re: Response to A. Ismail Sait : Islamic State

« on: December 14, 2013, 07:17:16 PM »

Salaam.

The focus of Prophets' endeavors was never the achievement of power.

1. Will you agree with me Prophet endeavored to follow and to put into practice each and every commandments contained in the Quran? 
2. Do you think that, in the absense of power to rule, the prophet could have managed to into practice all commandments contained in the Quran?

3:78 is not an injunction to strive to achieve the power to rule.

Again you are ignoring my question.  How can you follow all Allah's commandments, say for instance, the criminal laws of Islam without the power to rule?

4:75 is addressed to an Islamic State.

Alhamdulillah you finally mentioned "Islamic state".   

1. Who established this Islamic State?
2. Who is responsible to establish this Islamic state?

Regards,
Optimist

141

General Discussions / Re: Response to A. Ismail Sait : Islamic State

« on: December 14, 2013, 12:44:26 PM »

Again to continue from my last post.....
 
Allow me keep this thread alive for some more time, Insha Allah,  because, many times, during our discussions in the forum, we are guilty  (including myself) focusing on less important aspects of Islam.

You said:

We have only one responsibility, which is to surrender ourselves completely to the divine instructions and laws contained in the Quran and to establish a society which can implement all its Laws.

After stating that we have only one responsibility, you have enumerated two responsibilities.

To surrender ourselves completely to the divine instructions and laws contained in the Quran will cover all our responsibilities at different levels.   The reason why I mentioned second part is because it is imperative to have a society with governmental power in order to fullfill our obligation to surrender ourselves completely to the Divine Laws.  This is not altogether a different responsibility.

You said:
God will NOT grant power to rule on the land unless we sincerely make efforts to achieve this objective.  The power to rule the land is not granted to anyone from the sky on a fine morning.

We are not asked to strive in order to achieve the power to rule.

Just one verse is sufficient to demolish your false claim.

"It is not for any human being unto whom Allah has given the Book and wisdom and the Divine Message, that he should afterwards have said unto mankind, 'Obey me instead of Allah'. He should rather say, 'You should be amongst those who are subservient to Allah by following His Book which you study and teach others'."(3:78)

According to this verse, no one, how highly placed one may be, even as high as a Messenger of Allah, has the right to make people subservient to himself.   In the Quran - Allah says: "Inna deena indalahil-Islam." (Certainly, the only acceptable way which Allah will accept is Islam).  Therefore it is imperative for us to obey Allah and follow all of His commandments mentioned in the Quran. 

Now, how can you establish, say for instance, the criminal laws of Islam without the power to rule?   Also, if it is not required to strive in order to achieve the power to rule, can you tell me, following which guidance the prophet and the sahabas strived hard and established an Islamic society with power to rule? 

Regards,
Optimist

142

General Discussions / Re: Response to A. Ismail Sait : Islamic State

« on: December 14, 2013, 04:12:15 AM »

Just as an additional note....even in the example you have provided, I believe, you are compulsorily responsible to support the divine system of marriage (you should marry) unless you have any valid justification not to marry.  As you are aware Quran instructs those who do not have sufficient means to marry to wait until the divine system provides them with means.

143

General Discussions / Re: Response to A. Ismail Sait : Islamic State

« on: December 14, 2013, 03:43:51 AM »

You wrote:


It is strange to note that, according to you, there is no injunction in the Quran to form a government  and the Islamic State will be declared only when God grants us the power for it.  You seem to assume that Allah will bestow us with government authority without any human effort.   Even assuming, not admitting, there is no  injunction in the Quran anywhere to form a government, so long as the Quran contains Laws that can be made applicable only under a system of government with authority to rule, it is not EVEN required any injunction in the Quran anywhere to form a government.   When you put a glass of milk before your child, you do not need to verbally instruct your child to drink.  The instruction is there by default.  However, Quran gives instructions at various places through different ways to follow and establish all the divine laws contained in the Quran.  And we are responsible to see that all Quranic laws are implemented and of course Allah will hold us responsible for any dereliction of duty in this regard, borrowing your own comments, only after thorough consideration of all aspects of our appallingly limited capabilities.

Just because there are divine commandments regarding married life, do I need to marry, compulsorily?

There are divine commandments to fight like the following;

And how could you refuse to fight in the cause of God and of the utterly helpless men and women and children who are crying, "O our Sustainer! Lead us forth [to freedom] out of this land whose people are oppressors, and raise for us, out of Thy grace, a protector, and raise for us, out of Thy grace, one who will bring us succour!" (4:75)

Will you ask the same question, i.e., just because there are divine commandments to fight, do Muslims need to fight, compulsorily?

Regards
Optimist

144

General Discussions / Re: Response to A. Ismail Sait : Islamic State

« on: December 13, 2013, 12:25:48 PM »

Frayed concentration is what is wrought by trying to concentrate on both our responsibility to God as well as extra responsibilities that we impose on ourselves.

We have only one responsibility, which is to surrender ourselves completely to the divine instructions and laws contained in the Quran and to establish a society which can implement all its Laws.

Islamic State will be declared only when God grants us the power for it.

God will NOT grant power to rule on the land unless we sincerely make efforts to achieve this objective.  The power to rule the land is not granted to anyone from the sky on a fine morning.
 

To tell you the truth, I am no fan of Parvez. Much less, either Shabbeer, or Moudoodi.

It is only when you repeatedly quoted qxp and highlighted even words mentioned by Dr. Shabbir I took your attention to the possibility of different interpretations.  Good to know you are not a fan of any scholar.   As for me, I am only a fan of Allah and His system only.  However I love all scholars who try to reform the society for the establishment of the divine system contained in the Quran in totality.

2:233, 2:286, 4:84, 6:152, 7:42, 23:62, 65:7,...The thread that runs through all these six verses is that Allah makes us responsible for anything, only after thorough consideration of all aspects of our appallingly limited capabilities.

Here your comments are much more focused.  Thanks for this.  Can I deduct from your above comment that we are responsible and should be ready to sacrifice even our lives for the establish all divine laws contained in the Quran as much as humanly possible for us to do so? 

Your quote:

وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا

Here the second partوَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا is the key to the first part. Is the Prophet responsible for whatever each and every individual of the  Ummah thinks or does?

No one said  prophet in any way responsible either directly or indirectly for the actions of others.  No one, including the prophet, will be held responsible for the actions of others.    The responsibility of the prophet is to discharge his responsibilities and duties being the head of the Divinely-ordained System enjoying the wholehearted obedience and support from Muslims who are collectively subservient to the Law of the Qur'an.   This is what the verse is stating. 

What do you mean by "free-willed"?

It means that man is gifted with freedom to to choose - either to live by God given Laws or any others laws.   But you may please concentrate on whatever I said after this comment.  Thanks

This is not an injunction to form a government.

It is strange to note that, according to you, there is no injunction in the Quran to form a government  and the Islamic State will be declared only when God grants us the power for it.  You seem to assume that Allah will bestow us with government authority without any human effort.   Even assuming, not admitting, there is no  injunction in the Quran anywhere to form a government, so long as the Quran contains Laws that can be made applicable only under a system of government with authority to rule, it is not EVEN required any injunction in the Quran anywhere to form a government.   When you put a glass of milk before your child, you do not need to verbally instruct your child to drink.  The instruction is there by default.  However, Quran gives instructions at various places through different ways to follow and establish all the divine laws contained in the Quran.  And we are responsible to see that all Quranic laws are implemented and of course Allah will hold us responsible for any dereliction of duty in this regard, borrowing your own comments, only after thorough consideration of all aspects of our appallingly limited capabilities. 

Finally, even the terms like Nahy 'anil munkar - forbidding evil -, which you repeatedly mentioned in your posts is not something related to our private affairs only.  Ultimately, it would require a governmental authority to fight against and eradicate all evils.   

Assalamu alaikum

Kind regards
Optimist

145

General Discussions / Re: Response to A. Ismail Sait : Islamic State

« on: December 12, 2013, 01:13:03 PM »

Here are verses 7:163- 165  relevant to the discussion.

وَاسْأَلْهُمْ عَنِ الْقَرْيَةِ الَّتِي كَانَتْ حَاضِرَةَ الْبَحْرِ إِذْ يَعْدُونَ فِي السَّبْتِ إِذْ تَأْتِيهِمْ حِيتَانُهُمْ يَوْمَ سَبْتِهِمْ شُرَّعًا وَيَوْمَ لَا يَسْبِتُونَ لَا تَأْتِيهِمْ كَذَٰلِكَ نَبْلُوهُمْ بِمَا كَانُوا يَفْسُقُونَ

O Rasool ask them about the city which stood by the sea where the fish came to the water surface openly whenever its citizens observed the law of Allah (2/65, 4/154, 5/60, 16/124). Thus We tried them by means of their own iniquitous doings.

وَإِذْ قَالَتْ أُمَّةٌ مِنْهُمْ لِمَ تَعِظُونَ قَوْمًا اللَّهُ مُهْلِكُهُمْ أَوْ مُعَذِّبُهُمْ عَذَابًا شَدِيدًا قَالُوا مَعْذِرَةً إِلَىٰ رَبِّكُمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَّقُونَ

A group amongst the citizens admonished them for not adhering to Allah’s laws (7:159) whilst some said to this group that it was futile to exert themselves for those who are bent upon self-destruction. The former said: “We do this to absolve ourselves from any charge of neglect of duty by Allah, and in the hope that they might perchance abstain from wrong-doings.” (6/70, 15/6). 

فَلَمَّا نَسُوا مَا ذُكِّرُوا بِهِ أَنْجَيْنَا الَّذِينَ يَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ السُّوءِ وَأَخَذْنَا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا بِعَذَابٍ بَئِيسٍ بِمَا كَانُوا يَفْسُقُونَ(

When the wrong-doers totally disregarded the warning given to them a severe chastisement was inflicted upon them for all their iniquity, but those who admonished them were saved. 

Regards,
Optimist

146

General Discussions / Re: Response to A. Ismail Sait : Islamic State

« on: December 12, 2013, 11:59:51 AM »

It is clear that we are not going to be held responsible for whatever happens in society, even if some of them go to Hell, provided we have fulfilled our responsibility of inculcating integrity of character, practicing good deeds, bidding kindness, and forbidding evil, and inculcating constancy and consistency.

I do not know your definition of practicing "good deeds", "forbidding evil", etc.  Let me just ask you to think why all prophets and their people, including our prophet and the sahabas faced strong opposition from others.  If  the prophet and the Sahabas had lived just concentrating on certain “good deeds” without challeging the prevailing system, and undertaking some good social activities they would not have faced any problem from anyone.   Here is a beautiful explanation for verse 2:157, a verse I mentioned in my previous post.

[2:157] This struggle will provide you with many opportunities to test your own mettle. You may encounter wars and massacres and also be confronted with scarcity of food and loss of life and property or with devastation of fields and orchards. Such ordeals may take place but ultimately those who remain steadfast and do not waver in their commitment to establish Allah’s System, will be successful. They meet every challenge saying: “We have dedicated ourselves to the establishment of the Divine System and come what may we will continue advancing towards that goal.” They are the people who are considered to be eminently deserving of blessings and laudation by their Creator and Sustainer. they will certainly attain their goal. 

As against this here is another group of people;

[4:97-98] Hijra plays a very important role in the life of Momineen. Those who are content to live a wretched and oppressed life in an ungodly society will be asked by the Malaika at the time of their death: “Why did you lead such a wretched life?” They will answer, “We were weak and helpless.” The Malaika will then say, “Was not the earth of Allah vast enough for you to undertake Hijra to some favourable place”? These people lead a life of Jahannam in this world and in the Hereafter also, they will abide in Jahannam.  The exception is those men, women and children who were truly weak and unable to seek means of escape and did not know whither to go. For them there is hope for leniency from Allah Who is Forbearing and Protective.

Regards,
Optimist

147

General Discussions / Re: Response to A. Ismail Sait : Islamic State

« on: December 12, 2013, 04:35:14 AM »

Thanks for admitting (indirectly) all civil and criminal jurisprudence are part of Quran.
I never admitted either directly of indirectly that "all civil and criminal jurisprudence"are part of Quran.

Salaam!

When you discuss kindly always focus on the topic.   You know what I had intended by the message.  I was thanking you for accepting Islam as a comprehensive system of life covering guidance for all aspects of our life including all civil and criminal laws.

You wrote:
I was waiting all along at the least an indirect admission from you on this point.
Are you reading my posts? The following is a quote from my first post, as quoted by you in this new thread:
The moment we interpret Iqama Al Saat, or Iqama Al Deen as a double quest, that of inculcating Millathe Ibrahim in our personal lives on the one hand, and, of implementing the full Qur'anic Jurisprudence on the other hand, we become guilty of frayed concentration, and thus we are neither here, nor there.

On the one hand you admit Quran is a complete way of life and on the hand you claim that it is ok to restrict Islam into our personal affairs.   By the way, is there any punishment prescribed for "guilty of frayed concentration?"

You wrote:
This implies that Muslims should aim and it shall be the responsibility of Muslims to see that they are in a position to implement all Quranic Laws, including all civil and criminal laws.
This is exactly where I differed, and still differ.

Then why Quran  provides comprehensive guidance touching all aspects of our life.  If Muslims are not collectively responsible, you say who is responsible to establish an Islamic society.  Is it Allah who is responsible?   You sound similar to the Jews who told Moses YOU AND YOUR GOD GO AND FIGHT, WE ARE GOING TO SIT RIGHT HERE.    You should substantiate your point with proof from the Quran.

Every individual is directly or indirectly responsible for what happens in society.
Accordtng to qxp, Verse 5:105 means:
O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! You are responsible for yourselves.
He who goes astray cannot harm you if you are rightly guided. All of you will
return to God; and He will make you understand all that you were doing in life.

If you are saying that every one shall be responsible his or her own actions I agree with you.  No one will bear the burden of another.   Unlike QXP,  Parwez interpreted the initial part of the verse يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا عَلَيْكُمْ أَنْفُسَكُمْ as O Jama’at-ul-Momineen you alone are responsible for the development of your personality (Nafs).  And the next underlined part as "If you follow the right path which may be different from your ancestors’ path, you will not be harmed by those who follow the wrong path"

Anyhow,  Islam fixes responsibilities upon man based on his individual capacity as well as collective, for instance, if an evil is going to take place, if a person or a group of persons succeeded to prevent the evil from taking place  the society may be saved from the responsibility.  But if no one takes action to prevent the evil from happening, each and every individual in the society shall have to share the responsibility collectively (not saying equal responsibility).  Just the following verses  (out of many) must be sufficient for anyone to know the collective responsibility of the Muslims. 

وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا

[2:143] Our objective is to make you a people with a universal outlook to be equidistant from all other peoples i.e. neither leaning towards any particular people nor estranged from another. Your responsibility is to keep a watch over the activities of other people of the world (to see that no nation is oppressing the other) and the responsibility of the Rasool (being the head of the Divinely-ordained System – 3/109, 22/78) is to watch over your activities.

وَلْتَكُنْ مِنْكُمْ أُمَّةٌ يَدْعُونَ إِلَى الْخَيْرِ وَيَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ

[3:103] For the establishment of this system it is necessary that you should be such a Jama’at (Ummah) that calls all humanity to the Quran (3/109, 2/143, 22/78) enjoining what it recognises as right and forbidding what it declares wrong. If you do this, you will lead a life of progress and prosperity (23/1).

You have to re-read my the last two para in my previous post and post a counter in detail with the support of sufficient points.

Regards,
Optimist 

148

Women / Re: after giving birth waiting period?

« on: December 11, 2013, 06:29:25 PM »

Bro Hamzeh has quoted relevant Aya of Quran. What do you want to tell by quoting Allama Iqbal. Please elaborate.

Actually  you are reading from my signature

149

General Discussions / Re: Response to A. Ismail Sait : Islamic State

« on: December 11, 2013, 02:02:17 PM »

Salaam.

Civil and Criminal Jurisprudence is not what Al Qur'an is all about.

Salam,

Thanks for admitting (indirectly) all civil and criminal jurisprudence are part of Quran.  I was waiting all along at the least an indirect admission from you on this point.  This implies that Muslims should aim and it shall be the responsibility of Muslims to see that they are in a position to implement all Quranic Laws, including all civil and criminal laws. 

If somebody is unable to implement his own version of Qur'anic Jurisprudence in a purportedly Islamic State, or outside it, he will not be accused of living a truncated Islam.

A society is nothing but a collection of individuals who have the potential of enforcing change.   Every individual is directly or indirectly responsible for what happens in society.  The Quran gives a graphic illustration of this in Sura Sabaa (the leaders and the led quarreling about, and blaming one another for, society’s ills): “If you just imagine the time when the transgressors will be in Alllah’s presence blaming one another for their mistakes. The led will say to the leaders, ‘but  for your misleading leadership we would have followed Allah’s laws’. The leaders will say, ‘Why blame us? We didn’t stop you from following the right path. you wronged of your own choice. You blame us wrongly!’ The led will say, ‘ You crafted a society which kept us away from the right path. How can you escape responsibility?” (34:31-33). But, excuses of both will be rejected and punishment will come to them equally: (37:33) - The leaders for their wrongdoing and the led for being their power base.

Please note that the Quran does not accept as valid the excuse of being helpless from free-willed Man.   HOWEVER It is perfectly possible, though, that individuals fail in their initial attempt(s) to bring about change in their society. But this is very different from presenting helplessness as an excuse for inaction. People who try are commended by Allah (2:157), others will naturally go to hell (4:97)

Regards,
Optimist

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General Discussions / Re: Response to A. Ismail Sait : Islamic State

« on: December 11, 2013, 12:15:36 AM »

Your quote:

“…So judge between them according to what God has revealed and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the finally established truth that has come to you…”  5:48."

There is no harm in quoting part of a verse if you indicate it is only a part, as you have rightly indicated by the dots.

But dots are not everything. Read verse 42 of the same Sura.

That, according to qxp is:

[They are upholders of falsehood and they make wealth by unfair means. They are bribed
into spying. If they come to you asking to judge among them, the choice to accept
or reject their request is yours. You have the right to disclaim jurisdiction since
they have not yet accepted the Qur’an and they have the Torah. If you disclaim
jurisdiction they cannot harm you at all. However, if you decide to judge among
them, do so equitably. God loves the equitable.]

Note the bold and underlined if in the above quote. (Emphasis mine.)

Salaam!

My comments are very clear, but your comments are still very vague.   Let us focus on the point brother Ismail.  Let me ask you two straight forward questions to get to know your point clearly;   Do you agree with me;

1.  Islam is a way of life which can take practical shape in totality only in a Islamic State establised based on Divine Laws contained in the Quran.  YES or NO

2.  All judgments related to all aspects of life (all CIVIL LAWS and CRIMINAL LAWs) must be based on the directives and instructions contained in the Quran and therefore establishment of an Islamic society with governmental power  is required to implement all Islamic/ Quranic laws  (ofcourse it will be the duty of an Islamic state to legislate the clauses and sub-clauses of Qur'an's basic Shari'at laws or principles, according to the social, cultural and geo-political conditions of the time, by consensus (means in consultation with all) based on the general directives contained in the Quran. It is precisely because of this, the prophet was commanded to consult his companions (Qur'an 3:159 & 42:38) and followers).    YES or NO

Now let me make one comment for the quote you made from QXP.  Appreciate telling me clearly what is the message you want to convey to me when you wrote "Note the bold and underlined if in the above quote".   I believe you are not saying that the prophet can sometimes refuse to Judge according to what Allah has revealed (Allah forbid)?   Anyhow, appreciate if you check all other translations as well.  The following from Parwez may be also helpful and you may cross check with qxp. 

[Parwez] [5:42] To reiterate: The Jews listen to you only to coin lies. They devour that which is unlawful. Their religious leaders have the authority to decide their disputes but they adopt a very cunning technique – if they want to favour a person and feel that judgement according to Muslim Law will be favourable to them, they advise him to go to the Rasool.  O Rasool! they come to you for judgement, it is up to you to take up their case or decline to interfere. If you decline, it will do you no harm, but if you judge between them, judge justly. Allah likes those who judge fairly.  

"Shall I seek other than Allah for Judge, when how it is who hath revealed unto you this Book fully explained" (6:115).

Consider the underlined words.

My humble request to you again to focus on the topic.   

أَفَغَيْرَ اللَّهِ أَبْتَغِي حَكَمًا Shall I seek other than Allah for Judge /  Do you want that I should seek an authority other than Allah when He has sent down for you the Book which states everything clearly?

Regards
Optimist