Messages

136

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 06, 2016, 02:28:54 AM »

Salaam hichman9,

I would like to ask you several questions if you won't mind answering them:

1)Do you hold to the believe  that the earth is flat and geocentric from a theological perspective or from a scientific/astrological perspective?

2)If even satellite images from NASA and the ISS aren't enough to convince you, then what more proof would like us to over?

3)What proof do you have with respect to your view (i.e. the earth is flat and geocentric)? And what makes those "proofs" any more credible than the ones we offer?

137

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 05, 2016, 09:00:43 AM »

Salaam hichman9,

Another fake composite image by NASA

If an image from NASA (taken from space) is unable to convince you, then I fail to see how anything will convince you.

It is truly disturbing that there are individual, in the 21st century, who still hold to the believe that the earth is flat.

But, if you wish for your believe (of the earth being flat) to be challenged and refuted from science perspective, then perhaps you won't mind starting a trend based on this subject over on 'Quora' (https://www.quora.com/) or over on 'Debate.org' (http://www.debate.org/forums/). The reason why I suggest you post your argument/s over at 'Quora' or on 'Debate.org' is for the simple reason that Quora seems to have more active and knowledgeable individuals (with respect science, astronomy, astrology, etc). And apologies to members of this forum; I am in no way suggest that you all are not knowledgeable. So, I look forward to seeing you there, and please tag me so that I may join/participate in that debate.

138

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran IIö

« on: January 05, 2016, 05:09:59 AM »

Salaam hichman9,

Your argument is invalid because it presupposes the Qurān was sent only to a "primitive" 7th c. Arabs

Not necessarily. I acknowledge that that the Quran was sent to all of mankind. I was simply making the point that the Quran, in order to convince the desert Arab (its initial audience), would have had to speak in a language they could understand; and present arguments which their minds, at that time, could comprehend.

Natheless, the point I was making is = it doesn't matter whether you're at level, mount, or even as high above msl as the (so-called) "stratosphere," the earth will always look perfectly planate 360° around the observer — In other words, the earth does not look "round" from "outer space" (as we were conditioned to believe since childhood) - but Flat.

From the view point of someone on the ground, the earth looks flat. But from the view point of someone in outer space, the earth is round. This is a fact.

Are you seriously arguing that the earth is flat?

139

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran IIö

« on: January 05, 2016, 04:09:40 AM »

The point I was making is/was that when viewed from the ground (as the desert arabs did) the Earth not looks flat. But when viewed from outer space it is round.

140

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 05, 2016, 03:37:40 AM »

Salaam mia666,

You are more than welcome to use the answer/s I've provided in your rebuttal writing.

With regards to the verses which supposedly state that the earth is "flat", it would help to remember that the word earth (Arabic: ard) doesn't always mean the planet earth in general. The word earth (Arabic: ard) can also mean the ground/land as evident in the following verse:

"The Byzantines have been defeated In the nearest land. But they, after their defeat, will overcome." [Quran 30:2-3]

In he above verse the word 'ard" (meaning earth) means 'land" and not the planet earth.

So context of the word 'ard' (earth) will always determine whether it is the earth in general or a part of land that is being referred to.

You also said:

"the desert Arabs would have totally freaked out if the movement of the Earth was mentioned, so God omitted this particular fact, only alluding to the orbits of the celestial bodies above us."

You are absolutely right. As Joseph Islam once said:

"The Quran was not meant to turn the desert people, to whom it was sent to, into future scientists, nor to present information which could only be verified 1400 years later by modern scientific developments. Rather, the purpose was to present arguments to the people to whom it was sent to in a way that their 1400 century minds could grasp, and in a way in which they, at that time, perceived the world around them, with a view to remove all doubts, so that they could better relate to them. It would be pointless, I would think, to present 'facts' which the desert Arabs could never verify. Neither would there be much point to present them with arguments which their minds at that time could not comprehend nor with details that they could never grasp."

141

General Discussions / Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?

« on: January 05, 2016, 01:45:44 AM »

Salaam all.

Further to what brother/sister A.H.A said, I also find the argument of a flat earth to be lacking. The below answer sums up my view of the verses usually cited to support said view point:

https://www.quora.com/Does-the-Quran-say-that-the-Earth-is-flat/answer/Akbar-Hashmi-2?srid=t0CR&share=1

Having read the above, I believe the verses referring to the "flatness" of the earth to be a metaphorical. When you stand on the road, does the Earth not look flat to you? Indeed it does. But when viewed from outer space it's round.

Having said all of that, I share a similar sentiment with brother Joseph Islam when he made the following statement:

"The Quran was not meant to turn the desert people, to whom it was sent to, into future scientists, nor to present information which could only be verified 1400 years later by modern scientific developments. Rather, the purpose was to present arguments to the people to whom it was sent to in a way that their 1400 century minds could grasp, and in a way in which they, at that time, perceived the world around them, with a view to remove all doubts, so that they could better relate to them. It would be pointless, I would think, to present 'facts' which the desert Arabs could never verify. Neither would there be much point to present them with arguments which their minds at that time could not comprehend nor with details that they could never grasp."

142

General Discussions / Re: Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

« on: January 05, 2016, 01:36:32 AM »

Salaam mia666,

With respect to your question of whether, from a Quran perspective, the earth is flat or not I think the following response may be of a benefit:

https://www.quora.com/Does-the-Quran-say-that-the-Earth-is-flat/answer/Akbar-Hashmi-2?srid=t0CR&share=1

Having read the above, I believe the verses referring to the "flatness" of the earth to be a metaphorical. When you stand on the road, does the Earth not look flat to you? Indeed it does. But when viewed from outer space it's round.


And with respect to 27:61 and the usage of the words "made the earth a fixed place" in my opinoin this may be an error in translation. Muhammad Asad translates that same verse as follows:

"Nay - who is it that has MADE THE EARTH A FITTING ABODE [for living things], and has caused running waters [to flow] in its midst, and has set upon it mountains firm, and has placed a barrier between the two great bodies of water? Could there be any divine power besides God? Nay, most of those [who think so] do not know [what they are saying]!" [Quran 27:61]

And he goes on to say the following in his commentary for that verse as well as 77:25-26: "Lit., 'place of rest'.  This refers not merely to the fact that the earth is an abode for living and dead human beings and animals, but is also an allusion to the God-willed, cyclic recurrence of birth, growth, decay and death in all organic creation - and thus an evidence of the existence of the
Creator who "brings forth the living out of that which is dead, and brings forth the dead out of that which is alive."


With respect to the geocentric argument, I plan to give my two cent in due time, God willing.

143

General Discussions / Re: Ayat 65 Of Surat Nisa'i: We Owe This To The Prophet.

« on: January 04, 2016, 01:00:31 AM »

Salaam Abu Hafsat,

Your citing of Surah Nisa'i verse 65 (4:65) as evidence/prove that we are required to follow and uphold other source besides the Quran is misleading, for two reasons.

The first, and main reason, why it is misleading is because Allah has already instructed us (including the prophet) to judge ONLY by/with the Quran, as evident by the following verse:

"And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. SO JUDGE BETWEEN THEM BY WHAT ALLAH HAS REVEALED and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ." [Quran 5:48]

So, with respect to the Surah and verse you cited (4:65) in which the prophet is being instructed to judge between their disputes, it is clear, as per the above surah and verse which I cited (5:48), that he is expected to judge ONLY by what Allah has reveled to him (which is the Quran).

It is common knowledge, among all those who have read and studied the Quran, that one of the names used for the Quran is 'Al-Furqan; which means the criterion between right and wrong. Which only further supports the claim that the prophet would have used it (the Quran ONLY) to judge his community.

HOW THE QURAN DESCRIBES ITSELF
http://quransmessage.com/articles/how%20the%20quran%20describes%20itself%20FM3.htm

The Qur’an was Muhammad’s only Revelation
http://www.detailedquran.com/quran_data/The_Only_Revelation.htm

The second reason why your usage of 4:65 as evidence/prove that we are required to follow and uphold other source besides the Quran is misleading is for the simply fact that the prophet is no longer with us. He is dead. So how can we take our disputes to a dead person? But if we accept the Quran sufficient for us as a judge, then your whole argument flies out the window.

You also said:

"This Ayat is an answer to those who claim that it is sufficient for them in their religion to follow the Book of Allah only..."

Allow me to ask you a question: Why shouldn't the Quran be sufficient enough for us to follow? How can you say that the Quran, which makes the following claims, "is not sufficient for us"?:

The Quran claims to be a fully detailed explanation (Arabic: fussilat 41:3; 11:1)

It claims to be a guidance without a doubt (2:2-3).

It claims to be the perfect guidance (Arabic: hudan 2:2).

It claims to be a clear convincing proof (Arabic: burhan (4:174).

It claims to be the ultimate scale (Arabic: mizan, 42:17; 57:25).

It claims to be the discernment between truth and falsehood (Arabic: Furqan 25:1, 2:53).

It claims to be an evidence absolutely clear (Arabic: bayyina 20:133).

It claims to be a clear explanation of all matters (Arabic: tibiana  lekulli shayin 16:89).

It also claims to be the only source which guides to a path which is most firm, right, straight and stable (6:114; 17:9; 16:89).

Please, also, ponder over the following verse:

“ISN’T IT SUFFICIENT FOR THEM THAT WE HAVE REVEALED TO YOU the Book which is recited to them? Indeed, in it are blessings and admonition for the Believers.” [Quran 29:51]

And if, as you calim, the Quran isn't sufficent enough for us as a guide, then what purpose does it surve?

http://quransmessage.com/articles/quran%20sole%20guidance%20FM3.htm
THE QURAN STANDS ALONE AS SOLE RELIGIOUS GUIDANCE

Further more, you also said:

"without following the Sunnah of His Messenger."

Any and all religious assertions or theological standpoints/practices must find unequivocal support from the Quran; any theological standpoint whatsoever in the name of God's religion, must provide clear, unambiguous, unequivocal proof and authority from the Quran for it; as it is the Quran that is the primary and ultimate authority from God.

That being said, please provide CLEAR, EXPLICIT, UNAMBIGUOUS and UNEQUIVOCAL proof/verses from the Quran which make it incumbent upon Muslim to follow the so called 'Sunnah of Muhammad' (if that Sunnah is anything but the Quran).

Finally, allow me to post to you a question:

which version of the sunnah are you refering to? The Shia or the Sunni version? Why one and not the other? In other words, there is no single definition of Sunnah that is acceptable to all the Islamic scholars. Some say that whatever the Prophet (PBUH) said or did in private, or public, is his Sunnah. Others say that whatever is in the books of hadith is the Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH). Still others disagree with this definition of Sunnah and say that what the Prophet (PBUH) did as a Bashar (man) is not his Sunnah; and only the things he did as a prophet comprise it. Therefore, is safe to conclude, then, that there are as many variations in the definition of Sunnah as there are sects and sub-sects in Islam. Each sect thinks its definition is the right one.

UNDERSTANDING THE TERM 'SUNNA' FROM A QURAN'S PERSPECTIVE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/understanding%20the%20sunna%20from%20a%20quran's%20perspective%20FM3.htm

Peace.

144

General Discussions / Re: Ayat 21 Of Surat Ahzab Analysed.

« on: January 03, 2016, 05:25:42 AM »

Salaam Abu Hafsat,

The first Surah you quoted (33:21) has been explained in great detail in the following article. Feel free to read it and post (on this forum) any criticism you may have of it:

http://quransmessage.com/articles/follow%20example%20of%20prophet%20FM3.htm

You also said:

"the way to become worthy of Allah's Love is to follow Prophet's guidance"

I agree with you, provided that with both agree on the Quran being the only source which the prophet was given to admonished and guide with.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/quran%20sole%20guidance%20FM3.htm

http://quransmessage.com/articles/god%20has%20warned%20believers%20to%20only%20follow%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm

Peace.

145

Women / Re: Verses on Women

« on: January 02, 2016, 07:14:55 AM »

Salaam mia666,

You asked two good questions which, God-willing, I wish to give may taken on. But First I would like to tackle one statement you made.

You said:

"Prophet-hood was arguably only delegated to men, because of the physical and leadership burdens."

I agree and disagree with you here. I agree that prophet-hood was delegated only to men, but I disagree with you in saying that it was on the basis of their physical and leadership burdens. The reason all of God's prophets were men, I believe, has to do with the attitude and era in which those prophets lived. The era of the prophets was an era in which women were seen, among many thing, as inferior (physically and mentally) and unequal to men. So to send women prophets would have been unproductive as they would have been dismissed from the get-go solely on the basis of their gender. The equivalence of this would be like trying to get an African-American elected as president in 17th century America where they were treated (at that time) as slaves and seen as less then human; hence dismissed from the get-go.

Now unto your questions.

You asked:

"Can a woman...be head of state according to the Quran?

I, personally, see no Quranic evidence to the contrary. I believe, from a Quran perspective, that leadership (especially in the political sense) should be delegated on the basis of merit and only to those of moral excellence. 49:13, which in part reads: [Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you], is evidence enough that a leader (in an Islamic state) should be elected solely on the basis of merit; precluding any consideration on the basis of race, family origin, social status, and gender. Furthermore, consider the following verse:

"The believing men and believing women are allies of one another. They enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Those - Allah will have mercy upon them. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise." [Quran 9:71]

In the above verse, I believe the words "they enjoy what is right and forbid what is wrong" is not restricted only to sermon in the mosques, but also an obligation unto men AND women in leadership roles (in the political sense). Consider, also, the following verse:

"[And they are] those who, if We give them authority in the land, establish prayer and give zakah and enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong. And to Allah belongs the outcome of [all] matters." [Quran 22:41]

I consider the above verse, and in particular the words/pro-nouns "those who", to be gender-neutral. I take from this verse that authority (in the political sense) is not restricted to one gender or another; that God will give authority in the land to any man and/or woman who are of moral excellence and will fulfill the covenants of God entrusted on him/her.

Lastly, of course, there is the story of the Queen of Sheba which you have already alluded to.

Now unto your second question.

You asked:

"what is their position in relation to men?"

The Quran has placed the relation between man and woman on a basis of equality. And nowhere is that more evident than in the following verses which 1) Puts, beyond any doubt, that men and women are equal in all things that really matter in social activities; 2)That the path of progress is open to both alike and the reward for achieving it is the same for both; 3)That each has the right to their own possessions:

"Indeed, the Muslim men and Muslim women, the believing men and believing women, the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do so, and the men who remember Allah often and the women who do so - for them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward." [Quran 33:35]

"And whoever does righteous deeds, whether male or female, while being a believer - those will enter Paradise and will not be wronged, [even as much as] the speck on a date seed." [Quran 4:124]

"And do not wish for that by which Allah has made some of you exceed others. For men is a share of what they have earned, and for women is a share of what they have earned. And ask Allah of his bounty. Indeed Allah is ever, of all things, Knowing." [Quran 4:32]

Peace.

146

General Discussions / Re: A very nice sermon

« on: December 31, 2015, 02:52:33 PM »

Salaam Sardar Miyan,

Apologies for the fact that the sermon in the video is given in Arabic, thus making it hard for non-Arabic speakers to understand what is being said. But, as mia666 has alluded to, the video has subtitles which makes it easier for the non-Arabic speaking audience to follow.

Peace.

147

General Discussions / Re: Definition of Hypocrites According to Quran

« on: December 31, 2015, 01:00:36 PM »

Salaam mia666,

In my opinion, if an individuals is partaking in certain acts which he/she knows full-well are condemned in the Quran, then that would make them hypocrites (and disobedient). But if the individual believes what he/she is doing to be good and pleasing to Allah, and has absolutely know idea if what he/she is doing violates the message of the Quran, then I would assume that that would make him ignorant and not necessarily a hypocrite (seeing as how he/she is unaware of the errors of his/her ways).

That said, I hold to the believe that only Allah knows who amongst us is truly a hypocrite and who among us partakes in un-lawful acts out of ignorance (with no intent to sin).

Peace.

148

General Discussions / A very nice sermon

« on: December 30, 2015, 01:18:41 PM »

Salaam all,

Apologies in advance if this in any ways violates the rules of this forum. I would like to share with the members of this community a video/sermon I recently watched by a man named Dr. Adnan Ibrahim titled: "Do We Think". Very inspirational video/sermon.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC-ZlX9etRs

Hope you all watch and enjoy it.

Peace to all.

149

Discussions / Re: Experiences

« on: December 30, 2015, 07:51:47 AM »

Salaam mia666,

Thank you for sharing you personal story. I (much like yourself and other members of this community) also hail from a traditionalist house-hold, who upheld the traditional views/practices of Islam.  And much like yourself my life, too, has been GREATLY CHANGED by Joseph Islams articles.

With respect to your question of how we can enlighten more people (traditionalist Muslims and non-Muslims) my advice would be to simply engage in a civilized dialogue with said people to better convince them of the views/beliefs which you/we believe to be the truth.

"Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knows best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance".[Quran 16:125]
 
"And say to My servants (that) they speak that which is best; surely Satan sows dissensions among them; surely the Satan is an open enemy to man".[Quran 17:53]

May Allah guide us all to the truth.

And peace to all.

150

Discussions / Re: Experiences

« on: December 30, 2015, 07:50:50 AM »

Salaam mia666,

Thank you for sharing you personal story. I (much like yourself and other members of this community) also hail from a traditionalist house-hold, who upheld the traditional (and sometimes misguided) views/practices of Islam.  And much like yourself my life, too, has been GREATLY CHANGED by Joseph Islams articles.

With respect to your question of how we can enlighten more people (traditionalist Muslims and non-Muslims) my advice would be to simply engage in a civilized dialogue with said people to better convince them of the views/beliefs which you/we believe to be the truth.

"Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knows best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance".[Quran 16:125]
 
"And say to My servants (that) they speak that which is best; surely Satan sows dissensions among them; surely the Satan is an open enemy to man".[Quran 17:53]

May Allah guide us all to the truth.

And peace to all.