arousal without thinking bad

[Sstikstof]

Salamun alaikum. I have a question. Can masturbation / arousal be done without thinking of bad in extreme circumstances? Will it be considered as sinful for just relieve fluids from ur own part in general sense? My apologies for this kinda question. But want to know exact boundaries.

[Sword]

Dear brother,

As-salamu alaykum.

Concerning this issue, I would take wisdom from the following two verses of the Quran:

5:101
O you who believe! do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; Allah pardons this, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.

64:16
So keep your duty to Allah as best ye can (ma istataAAtum), and listen, and obey, and spend; that is better for your souls. And whoso is saved from his own greed, such are the successful.


Best wishes,
Sword

[Sstikstof]

Thanks

[Sstikstof]

Just for the purpose of knowledge, I saw somewhere this post from bible.

The Bible never lists masturbation as a sin.

All the places that people use to show that it's a sin are conditional and easily refuted (and I will refute them upon request), in fact you have to pre suppose that masturbation is a sin before you can make many of these passages apply. This is why so many people try and associate masturbation with lust, because that's the only way they can biblically condemn the act.

At worst masturbation would make you ceremonially unclean, if you were a male Israelite soldier, according to the Livitical law (Leviticus 15:16-17).

Even for males masturbation is entirely possible without lust, just as you have described. One of the problems is that thoughts that usually cause one to want to masturbate are lustful. However this is easily overcome by just listening to your body, and provided it doesn't become a problem (doing it at inconvenient times, or just too frequently to where it takes up a lot of your time, see: 1 Corinthians 6:12), masturbating can relieve that tension that builds up over time and can therefore prevent some of those lustful thoughts that creep in from time to time.

Even if it is lusting that is the cause of you masturbating, or you accidentally lust while masturbating, the masturbation does not automatically become a sin, it's still the lust that is a sin. It's not like they become one in the same, lust and masturbation are two separate things that can be, and often are, done together. The lust remains a sin and the masturbation remains an act that is not listed as a sin in the Bible, nor is it condemned. Nevertheless, the same priciples of moderation and self control that govern the Christian life still do apply.

Compared to Joseph Islam's Expression on 'lifurujihin hafizun',

In verses 23:1-7, God describes successful believers as those that have humility in their prayer (23:2), they avoid vain talk (23:3), give zakat / engage in purification works (23:4) and those who 'guard their modesty' - lifurujihin hafizun. (23:5)

A more literal understanding of the word 'farj' (plural furuj) in the expression 'lifurujihin hafizun' is a reference to the private parts of both males and females. It is a reference to the 'pudenda' (sex organ) which is considered indecent to expose.

The argument here is that this is not merely a reference to sexual intercourse but to any sexual act.

The exception of wedlock is granted where one is not considered blameworthy (ghayru malumin) 23:6. However, whoever seeks beyond that has transgressed (ada) - 23:7

I do respectfully feel that this is an important reference and must be carefully considered.

I do respect that none of us would want to make unlawful which God has not forbidden, but equally we would not want to sanction something which on deeper reflection was not within the spirit of the Quran's teaching or overarching guidance.

Of course even in grey areas, the mantra 'err on the side of caution' is quite an apt consideration especially in religious matters.

My question is that>> is Joseph islam pointed specifically about bad thoughts/bad thoughts with arousal or arousal without thinking bad is also not under Quranic Warrent? Moderators please help me on this issue.

[Star]

Sorry about this, but seriously, such acts should not be encouraged under the general Quranic theme of chastity and purity. Plus, I don't get why anyone would *need* to do this...you could just turn on the TV and watch five minutes of some absurd children's show. I think that would kill the temptation.

[Sstikstof]

Sorry about this, but seriously, such acts should not be encouraged under the general Quranic theme of chastity and purity. Plus, I don't get why anyone would *need* to do this...you could just turn on the TV and watch five minutes of some absurd children's show. I think that would kill the temptation.q

i know. But just want to know joseph islams actual view and actual boundery. For example kissing is not bad if its between mother and son. But boyfriend and girlfriend lustful kisses go under sexual act. So is this kind of act i can expect in masturbation too? I hope u understood.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Sstikstof

Wa alaikum assalam

I have respectfully shared my thoughts on this topic. I simply cannot validate something beyond what my humble understanding of the Scriptures allow me to. I have also shared the need to err on the side of caution in matters of religion, even when there may be perceived grey areas or perceived silence on a matter in the Quran.

In my humble view, a believer should continuously strive to seek to purify themselves attempting to reach the highest levels of spiritual purification. The need for patience (sabr) / curtailment is often emphasised when it comes to desires (4:25).

Now I respectfully lean on verse 91:7-10 (an internal barometer we all have within us).

Albeit that it not for us to ‘identity’ distinctions (2:285), let us take the examples of the noblest ranked prophets (whoever they may be as they do exist in ranks 2:253).

Do you really think that these great spiritual masters / highest ranked prophets of God who we are encouraged to emulate would ever engage in practices such as these? What does your internal moral barometer (91:7-10) tell you? Please think about this.

I think the more pressing / pertinent question here is what is the need to engage in this act? This will assist one in getting to the root cause of the desire and then for it to be managed. We simply cannot get the Quran to validate a particular action because one may feel inclined to it. This is not the correct approach. (I am not suggesting that you are doing this, but the point still stands)

In the end, I respectfully remind of the following verse:

064:016
“So keep your duty to God as best you can / what you are able (Arabic: ma is’tata’tum), and listen, and obey, and spend; that is better for your souls. And whoso is saved from his own greed, such are the successful”
 
Finally, given the number of threads open on this topic now, including those that you have started, please can I kindly request that you do not attempt to open up another thread on this topic. If you need to discuss this topic, please can you kindly make use of a thread which is already open as those shared below.

Regards,
Joseph


RELATED:

[1] Masturbation
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=821.0
[2] Masturbation is not Haram/Unlawful!
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1795
[3] Hifz al-Furūj (Guarding the Private Parts) evidance regarding verse 23:5-7
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1814
[4] Arousal Without Thinking Bad
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1852

[Star]

I fully agree with Brother Joseph's sentiments on this topic on the first thread he suggested.

[Sstikstof]

Dear Sstikstof

Wa alaikum assalam

I have respectfully shared my thoughts on this topic. I simply cannot validate something beyond what my humble understanding of the Scriptures allow me to. I have also shared the need to err on the side of caution in matters of religion, even when there may be perceived grey areas or perceived silence on a matter in the Quran.

In my humble view, a believer should continuously strive to seek to purify themselves attempting to reach the highest levels of spiritual purification. The need for patience (sabr) / curtailment is often emphasised when it comes to desires (4:25).

Now I respectfully lean on verse 91:7-10 (an internal barometer we all have within us).

Albeit that it not for us to ‘identity’ distinctions (2:285), let us take the examples of the noblest ranked prophets (whoever they may be as they do exist in ranks 2:253).

Do you really think that these great spiritual masters / highest ranked prophets of God who we are encouraged to emulate would ever engage in practices such as these? What does your internal moral barometer (91:7-10) tell you? Please think about this.

I think the more pressing / pertinent question here is what is the need to engage in this act? This will assist one in getting to the root cause of the desire and then for it to be managed. We simply cannot get the Quran to validate a particular action because one may feel inclined to it. This is not the correct approach. (I am not suggesting that you are doing this, but the point still stands)

In the end, I respectfully remind of the following verse:

064:016
“So keep your duty to God as best you can / what you are able (Arabic: ma is’tata’tum), and listen, and obey, and spend; that is better for your souls. And whoso is saved from his own greed, such are the successful”
 
Finally, given the number of threads open on this topic now, including those that you have started, please can I kindly request that you do not attempt to open up another thread on this topic. If you need to discuss this topic, please can you kindly make use of a thread which is already open as those shared below.

Regards,
Joseph


RELATED:

[1] Masturbation
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=821.0
[2] Masturbation is not Haram/Unlawful!
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1795
[3] Hifz al-Furūj (Guarding the Private Parts) evidance regarding verse 23:5-7
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1814
[4] Arousal Without Thinking Bad
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1852

I understood your point. My previous posts were results of lack of knowledge. My apologies for that.

I have analyzed & spiritually without any RELIGIOUS guidance, I felt it is something that can be defined unnatural & BAD.
But one question remains, if we try to become spiritually pure, why wet dream happens that inspires you to involve to this acts? One way or another it happens with lewd thoughts. How do you explain such thing?

And what does Quran specifically says about bad thinking or lewd thoughts only?

[Sstikstof]

And principally what I have checked in my humble general understanding that the verse that can be pointed out for such acts of arousal, is 24:30 & 24:31 as intently vision & guarding private parts phrase goes even with spiritual part & visions. The principal facts in these verses that can be referred are the chance of any sort of sexuality & sexual intent thoughts. I tend to disagree with verse 23:5-7 with regards masturbation that you have referred, because in verse 21:91 which clarifies what is the actual expression "guarding private part". I also tend to agree a part of another article that the arabic words such as "from indulging with anyone" are suppressed after hafizun which can be assured by the next indications of the verse & context.

And regarding the term "Fahisha", you said, 'Fahisha' is anything which is evil, an excess, an enormity, immoderate, beyond measure or an excessive sin.'

One question arises that is masturbation even without lewd thoughts an evil, an excess, an enormity, immoderate, beyond measure or an excessive sin?
That means are we unintentionally violating the implicit indications of Quran by having wet dreams?

[Hassan A]

Salaam Sstikstof,

you asked:

are we unintentionally violating the implicit indications of Quran by having wet dreams?

Not necessarily. Wet dream occur while we are subconscious (i.e asleep), hence there's nothing one can do to control or stop wet dreams. So we (those of us who have them) are not in anyway violating the message of the Quran; for how could we sense we have no control over it?). Thus, Allah only holds us accountable for those things which we do intentionally while conscious.

[Duster]

Shalom / peace Sstikstof......can you answer bro Joseph's powerful question please???>>>

Do you really think that these great spiritual masters / highest ranked prophets of God who we are encouraged to emulate would ever engage in practices such as these? What does your internal moral barometer (91:7-10) tell you? Please think about this.

I'd really like to know your response.  Thanks.

[Sstikstof]

Shalom / peace Sstikstof......can you answer bro Joseph's powerful question please???>>>

Do you really think that these great spiritual masters / highest ranked prophets of God who we are encouraged to emulate would ever engage in practices such as these? What does your internal moral barometer (91:7-10) tell you? Please think about this.

I'd really like to know your response.  Thanks.

Salamun alaikum, Can you provide one unequivocal evidence from Quran or any Quranic verse without any assumption/argument on the basis of which masturbation or self-satisfaction is somehow un-quranic? Please remember that Quran is unambiguous scripture, it has clear verses, it is complete for guidance & fully-detailed scripture which has detailed explanation of everything & also what is easy to understand/ponder/reflect & also Quran has the interpretation of its own (Its already interpreted), So i expect answers basis of that.  I have studied on it. Prove me wrong.

[Duster]

Shalom / peace Sstikstof......can you answer bro Joseph's powerful question please???>>>

Do you really think that these great spiritual masters / highest ranked prophets of God who we are encouraged to emulate would ever engage in practices such as these? What does your internal moral barometer (91:7-10) tell you? Please think about this.

I'd really like to know your response.  Thanks.

Salamun alaikum, Can you provide one unequivocal evidence from Quran or any Quranic verse without any assumption/argument on the basis of which masturbation or self-satisfaction is somehow un-quranic? Please remember that Quran is unambiguous scripture, it has clear verses, it is complete for guidance & fully-detailed scripture which has detailed explanation of everything & also what is easy to understand/ponder/reflect & also Quran has the interpretation of its own (Its already interpreted), So i expect answers basis of that.  I have studied on it. Prove me wrong.

Shalom / peace. Please don't answer a question with a question of your own. Also the Quran gives guidance and I think the evidence has been presented to you as what is best approach. I can give you many so called lewd examples that the Quran doesn't expressly forbid but are implied, so please don't go down this route...

Just please answer the question I shared. If you can't, I'll understand ......>>>>>>>>>>>

[QM Moderators Team]

Sstikstof

Can you please keep a consistent font. Please see forum policy 2 (i).

http://quransmessage.com/forum/policy

Thanks!