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Offline Duster

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2016, 04:12:58 AM »
I do not see anywhere in Qoran where GOD is asking anyone to follow/judge by"  the bible" .

Goodlogic - I have to say this but nothing frustrates me more on this forum than your posts at times. ...clear verses and you just seem to ignore them. over and over   ....Frustrating ......really really frustrating. You actually make me angry sometimes ... Verses are put in front of you and you just deny them. .....

5:47
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

You going to deny this. .?

5:43
But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.

You going to deny this? .


And there are more. .....but as has been shown you are a follower of RK and nothing it seems is gonna change your mind. ....

This is certainly not good logic!!!

Shalom /peace to you all......

Offline Wakas

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2016, 06:39:29 AM »

Offline Student

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2016, 04:24:42 PM »
Salam

I have read the thread before hand and I do not agree with brother Imran Faruqui. I have given my statement regarding this topic with proof from Quran. If Quran says believe in one God, Day of Judgement and doing good deeds is enough for salvation. I am not going to question it. God clearly says people who are doing these things have nothing to fear. There are countless other things mentioned in the Quran and one is ofcourse supposed to believe them as well. But I think these verses reflect how merciful our God really is and that He is not complicated. We make religion complicated by searching for ever finer details. When God is silent. Brother Faruqui  makes a lot of statements in that post for which there is no Quranic evidence. He believes that:
Quote
  1. The Qur’an informs the People of the Book that their own Scriptures are partially corrupted:

Yes partially corrupted and the Quran still asks them to follow their own scripture. He conviniently overlooks this point. Brother Joseph has detailed articles and posts about this. I have also posted relevent posts with evidence previously. Please search and find them out.

Quote
2. The Qur’an points out some specific doctrines from past Scriptures that are false. For example, it points out that the doctrine of the Trinity is false:

Yes and they are asked to desist . But they are still asked to follow the shariah of the Torah. The Quran does not override the Torah's shariah. Not one verse in the entire Quran says that it has come to override and replace the previous books' shariah. Please read relevant posts by Brother Joseph or else, may I suggest you read the entire Quran yourself and search for evidence. You will not get a verse that says otherwise.Brother Joseph has an article discussing this, that the Bible does not teach trinity.

Quote
3. The Qur’an was sent to remove some of the shackles that were previously on the People of the Book: 

Yes, some not all shackles are removed and they are mentioned in detail in the Quran which are lifted, like they can marry our women and have our food and vice versa. Also a lot of their shariah remains unchanged and they are asked to adhere to them. If they fail to do so they will be transgressing.

Quote
4. The Qur’an is a confirmation of previous Scriptures, and with FINAL AUTHORITY over them: 

The Quran guards and confirms the Torah. It is not a final authority over the other Books. If something is not mentioned in the Quran but mentioned in Torah, that does not automatically mean that the information in the Torah is false. The Quran clearly says that it brushes over a lot of information in the Bible. It is not the intention of the Quran to replace the Bible. The Quran has shariah for believers and Bible and Torah has shariah for Children of Israel. This thought that Bible is not enough for guidance is entirely unquranic. We are also asked to believe in the Bible, but this does not mean we have to follow the Bible's shariah and this is implausible in some cases, the Children of Israel have a different Qibla and we have a different one. Plurality of shariah is evident in the Arabic Quran.

Moreover, are you aware that brother Faruqui claims to be a messenger?! He has claimed and has worked with end of the days topics, they are on this forum. I have gone through them and I am not a fan of his work. He makes a lot of unfounded assumptions about Islam. He makes a lot of claims about religion which are not sourced from the the Quran or the Bible. He claims we should believe him because he is a messenger, and these are revealed to him. I would ask anyone to take his posts with a pinch of salt and do their own research before believing anything he says.

Walekas salaam,
Sister Nura,

I'm really caught by surprise to learn Imran Faruqi claims messenger-ship and revelation for himself. Can you provide link/forum thread where he did that?. Thanks for alerting me and bringing this to my attention. In any-case I'm not a fan of him either and I hardly read his stuff and as I said I came across unintentionally on his thread and his last post on that thread really (despite his background or claims) is worthwhile - you said you and Sir Joseph answered his/similar views so will you please point me to those threads (sorry searching and landing on the desired topic on this forum is challenging to me, unless I'm missing something simple or may be I'm too spoiled by Google :D). I've read http://quransmessage.com/articles/people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm this before and I did it again after your post and the way I understood it perfectly fits Imran Faruqi's concluding statement of exception:

Quote
Finally, an important point of clarification, the People of the Book who DO NOT believe in the authenticity of the Qur’an, are therefore obviously NOT obliged to follow it. So long as they uphold their own Scriptures, and do not associate partners with God, they are still entitled entry to Heaven. Hence the choice is theirs: THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK CAN EITHER BELIEVE OR NOT. However, once they become Believers in the Qur’an’s authenticity, they are obliged to also follow it, for reasons elucidated above.

So, will you please provide me all the post links that address all the questions he raised just before the above conclusion? Otherwise I'm confused as how one can just take 2:62 & 5:69 as absolute statements. In fact the approach Sir Joseph advances and emphasize for all of us is holistic and not a cherry pick one in understanding the message of the Quran.

Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, whoever believed in Allah and the Last Day and did good deeds, then no fear on them and not they will grieve.

If taken absolute, then Trinity Christians (Hindus and all traditional Muslims and perhaps many other religions' followers) believe in Allah (with different name of course, http://quransmessage.com/articles/allah%20is%20not%20an%20exclusive%20name%20for%20god%20FM3.htm) and the last day and they do good deeds. Since this ayat does not add or elaborate belief in oneness of Allah, various  categories of shirk http://quransmessage.com/articles/idolatry%20according%20to%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm, and what the good deeds are unless the rest and whole of the Quran is referred the difficulty does not disappear. So, I would like to learn and enlighten myself with this reconciliation.

Also, and more importantly, we keep digressing from the main Q and subject of the post - where/which verse in the OT is explicit on the "Last Day" and "Hereafter"? It's the key to 2:62 and 5:69 even if it's taken in absolute sense (and not look for qualification)

Br. Good logic
Quote
Peace Student.
Daniel was  before Jesus. How can it be part of NT?
Sorry I told you I'm Naive in previous scripture and beginner student of the Quran  :-[
So, is Daniel part and parcel of OT? If so, why did Sir Joseph not mentioned it when discussing the subject in this http://post?

Br. Wakas,
Thanks for the link, I totally concur (in fact I mentioned the scriptures be treated as sequential = continuation in this line of revelation) and just so there's no wrong assumption about my view - I never said or subscribe to annulation/Mansukhi concept of previous scriptures but whatever contradicts with Quran is aught to be rejected and that is my understanding thus far.

Can someone list the names of the books in OT and names of the books in NT?

Thanks,
~Student
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Duster

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2016, 05:35:31 PM »

I'm really caught by surprise to learn Imran Faruqi claims messenger-ship and revelation for himself. Can you provide link/forum thread where he did that?. Thanks for alerting me and bringing this to my attention. In any-case I'm not a fan of him either and I hardly read his stuff and as I said I came across unintentionally on his thread and his last post on that thread really (despite his background or claims) is worthwhile

Shalom / peace Student


Here is where the claim was made

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=313.msg9483#msg9483

....This is what he said ....

"And, just to be clear: yes, I am a divinely inspired Messenger, sent by God to warn the global community of the imminently approaching Final Hour…"

Offline Duster

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2016, 05:38:05 PM »

Can someone list the names of the books in OT and names of the books in NT?

Thanks,
~Student

Simple google search? Not sure why you have asked this .......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible

Offline Nura

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2016, 09:25:25 PM »
Salam Brother Student
 
I'm sorry sometimes I do ask brothers and sisters on this forum to do a search instead of posting the links myself due to lack of time on my end. It is definitely not to insinuate anyone of you esteemed brothers or sisters are lazy. :)

Anyway, coming back to the topic of discussion, you said:
Quote
Finally, an important point of clarification, the People of the Book who DO NOT believe in the authenticity of the Qur’an, are therefore obviously NOT obliged to follow it. So long as they uphold their own Scriptures, and do not associate partners with God, they are still entitled entry to Heaven. Hence the choice is theirs: THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK CAN EITHER BELIEVE OR NOT. However, once they become Believers in the Qur’an’s authenticity, they are obliged to also follow it, for reasons elucidated above.

Can you please tell me or provide a verse from which Brother Faruqui got this idea that However, once they become Believers in the Qur’an’s authenticity, they are obliged to also follow it, for reasons elucidated above.


The Quran does not say this. With respect, the burden of proof is on Brother Faruqui ( and you, if you agree with him) to provide a verse from the Quran that says, Children of Israel, once convinced of the divinity of the Quran, must abandon Torah and start following the Quran's shariah.


There are clear verses in the Quran where Allah says, Children of Israel have to judge by their Books and follow them.
Quote
(4)    THE JEWS JUDGED BY THE TORAH
005.043
But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them?  therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not People of Faith.
The 'Therein' (Arabic: Fi-ha) is still a reference to the Torah. The Jews are being told to judge from what has been revealed to them (Torah) and if they don't, they are 'Kaffirs' (Disbelievers)
005.044
It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein (Arabic: Fi-ha) was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the scholars (Arabic: Ahbaru) : for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses to it: therefore do not fear mankind, but fear Me, and sell not my verses (Arabic: Ayati) for a miserable price. If any fails to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are Unbelievers (Arabic: Kaffiruna) .
005.045
"And We prescribed for them in it: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But who forgoes it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Who  judges NOT by that which God has revealed: such are wrong-doers. (Arabic: Zalimuna) "
The truth can be found within their own Torah as specific references are quoted. (e.g. Exodus 21:23-25)

(5)    THE CHRISTIANS JUDGED BY THEIR OWN GOSPELS
005.046
"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Torah that had come before him (Arabic: Bayna yadayhi) : We sent him the Gospel: in it was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Torah that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God."
Arabic readers will note that the term 'Bayna Yadayhi does not necessarily mean 'had come before him' as used by popular translations (such as the above). Rather, a more literal and possibly context accurate reference is:  'Between the hands'. Please see related article [7] below for a deeper analysis of the term. This therefore, refers to the Torah that was co-existent at the time of Prophet Jesus. (pbuh)
005.047
"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are those who rebel (Arabic: Fasiquna)."
Please note - By the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) (Late 6th early 7th century), parts of the Bible had already undergone changes and a creed had developed (The Council of Nicaea congregated in 325AD). The Quran however, is still clearly recognising the text that lay with them.

The Quran only corrects some of their selected transgressions and also only the transgressions being committed by the prophet Muhammad's contemporaneous Children of Israel. All they are asked to do is follow their own books sincerely.

Quote
(2)    ALL JEWS & CHRISTIANS HAVE TO DO IS ABIDE BY THE TRUE TEACHINGS OF THEIR SCRIPTURES
005.065
"If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss."
005.068
"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from thy Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But do not grieve over disbelieving people"

I am sorry But the Quran recognizes believers among Children of Israel and their belief is summarized as follows, Brother Joseph clearly shows that there is a two-tier system:

Quote
(17)    THERE ARE 'BELIEVERS' AMONG THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK
002.121
"Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as it should be studied: They are the ones that believe in it: Those who reject faith therein,- the loss is their own"
003.199
"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Arabic: Ahli-l-kitabi), those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account"
This is clearly a two-tier system where plurality is recognised. The people who believe in the final revelation are still being referred to as the People of the Book (Ahli-l-kitabi)
017.107-108
"Say: Believe in it or believe not; surely those who are given the knowledge before it fall down on their faces in prostration when it is recited to them. And they say: Glory be to our Lord! most surely the promise of our Lord was to be fulfilled"
005.083"And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, you will see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses"
028.052-53
“Those to whom We sent the Book before this, they do believe in this (revelation). And when it is recited to them, they say: "We believe in it, for it is the Truth from our Lord: indeed we have been Muslims from before this"”

Here the difference between the Quranic usage of the term 'Muslim' and 'Believers' is clear. A Muslim is anyone who submits to the will of God as a monotheist. Believers (Arabic: Amanu) are specifically those that have belief in the final scripture of God (i.e. the Quran), as truth from Him.

You agree with the above conclusion but can you give me a reason why you do not agree with Brother Joseph when he says:
Quote
42:15-16
(16)CONVERSION IS NOT NECESSARY
“To this then go on inviting, and go on steadfastly on the right way as you are commanded, and do not follow their desires, and say: I believe in what God has revealed of the Book, and I am commanded to do justice between you: God is our Lord and your Lord; we shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds; no plea need there be (now) between us and you: God will gather us together, and to Him is the return. But those who dispute concerning God after He has been accepted, futile is their dispute in the Sight of their Lord: on them will be a severe punishment”
Once God has been recognised as one God of both parties whom both parties serve, any further dispute in the sight of God is futile.

You asked:
Quote
If taken absolute, then Trinity Christians (Hindus and all traditional Muslims and perhaps many other religions' followers) believe in Allah (with different name of course, http://quransmessage.com/articles/allah%20is%20not%20an%20exclusive%20name%20for%20god%20FM3.htm) and the last day and they do good deeds. Since this ayat does not add or elaborate belief in oneness of Allah, various  categories of shirk http://quransmessage.com/articles/idolatry%20according%20to%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm, and what the good deeds are unless the rest and whole of the Quran is referred the difficulty does not disappear. So, I would like to learn and enlighten myself with this reconciliation.

Brother, Trinitarians are asked to stop believing in that concept, if even after reading the Quran,and being convinced of its divinity, they do not stop believing in trinity, they have to answer to God. With respect people of other religions are not 'Children of Israel'. These 'others' are asked to consider the Quran and once convinced of its veracity, are asked to follow the Quran. The Quran then expects, 'these others' to follow Quran's shariah. But, Children of Israel is supposed to follow the sharia in their Books.

Belief in God, has to be in accordance to what God says about him in the Quran and Bible. There can be no one associated with Him knowingly.Shirk has to be avoided, and only those whose belief in God aligns with what God says about Himself are mentioned in that verse. Not all Children of Israel believe in Trinity and do shirk as discussed above.

Are you telling me without the Quran people do not know what good deeds are? The Quran does not say this. The Quran claims we inherently know which are good deeds and which are bad. That's how God created us.

091:007-10
"And a soul (Arabic: Nafsin) and Him Who perfected / proportioned it. And inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it. He is indeed successful who causes it to grow (purifies it), and he is indeed a failure who corrupts it (buries it)"

Quote
Also, and more importantly, we keep digressing from the main Q and subject of the post - where/which verse in the OT is explicit on the "Last Day" and "Hereafter"? It's the key to 2:62 and 5:69 even if it's taken in absolute sense (and not look for qualification)

Why is the answer provided by Brother Joseph, about the mention of a gathering in hereafter not enough? If, there is to be a gathering in the hereafter, it is evident that there is some sort of an afterlife. Why do you need an explicit statement from the Bible? The Quran already mentions it in great detail. For us, who are not Children of Israel, the Quran is the binding book. We will be asked to justify our beliefs from the Quran. If, people of the book read the Quran as they are asked to do, ( to not dismiss the Quran without reading it and thinking over it), they will have explicit verses from Quran and verses from the Bible to believe in a hereafter. We have given you proof that the concept of accountability and afterlife can be found in the Bible as well. Just because something is not explicitly said, does not mean that it is not mentioned, e.g somethings of a sexual nature are not explicitly prohibited in the Quran ( lesbianism and bestiality) but we can understand that these actions are impermissible from other verves where this understanding/interpretation is implied. Not everything needs an explicit verse for it to be mentioned in the scripture, be it Bible or the Quran. Hence, we are asked to ponder on the verses. If everything was explicit, then there would be no need to ponder.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline good logic

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2016, 10:41:33 PM »
Peace Duster.

Where is the bible mentioned in the verses you quoted here?:

5:47
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

You going to deny this. .?
There is no bible in this verse brother, look it says "What Allah has revealed" not the bible!!!
5:43

But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.

You going to deny this? .

Again brother , Torah is not the  bible.
I cannot find anywhere in Qoran where GOD is asking  to follow or  judge by the "bible"
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Duster

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2016, 10:52:45 PM »
Shalom / peace Good logic.

You say Torah is not the Bible ..... so what is it? Don't you understand the Torah as being part of the bible?

We got full Bibles - Old and New testaments before prophet Muhammad's ministry. So when the Quran says them to judge by the Injeel, what is that?

Why do you have to argue for the sake of it? What will it take to get a simple verse through to you?

Now tell me - what is the Torah? What books were they reading that they were told to go back to??? A bible is simply a collection of books. So is the Torah part of the Bible or a collection of books or not?? 

Offline good logic

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2016, 10:58:01 PM »
Peace Duster.

If I remember correctly ,we have already discussed this subject, yet you say,quote

Goodlogic - I have to say this but nothing frustrates me more on this forum than your posts at times. ...clear verses and you just seem to ignore them. over and over   ....Frustrating ......really really frustrating. You actually make me angry sometimes ... Verses are put in front of you and you just deny them. .....


We discussed it here,for example:
Peace Duster.

The two books are :

1- What was sent to Moses from GOD.

2- What was sent to Mohammed from GOD.

GOD is talking about "His words" ,what He sent down.

Look at the confirmation from the previous verse:
28:48
فَلَمّا جاءَهُمُ الحَقُّ مِن عِندِنا قالوا لَولا أوتِىَ مِثلَ ما أوتِىَ موسىٰ أَوَلَم يَكفُروا بِما أوتِىَ موسىٰ مِن قَبلُ قالوا سِحرانِ تَظٰهَرا وَقالوا إِنّا بِكُلٍّ كٰفِرونَ

The key words are "Min indina" Qoran from GOD and "Outia moussa!What Moses was given from GOD

The bible is not mentioned there!!! It contains both GOD s words and men s words!!! GOD is certainly not talking about the "bible".

I have not seen any verse/s from Qoran where GOD said follow/judge by the "bible".
GOD bless you .
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Duster

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2016, 11:24:01 PM »
Shalom / peace goodlogic...

In my view you are still banging the irrational drum ....

What was revealed to the People of the Book ....???

Torah is mentioned in the Quran
Injeel is mentioned in the Quran
Zabur is mentioned in the Quran

005.068
"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."

Can't you see that there are more books apart from the Torah and Gospel that was revealed to them by other prophets??? Even today the Bible consists of these books.... So why are you keep banging this ridiculous drum that the Quran does not mention the Bible??? What on earth are these books???

"O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord.

Are you going to keep denying this GL?

There were many books that the People of the Book were reading other than the Quran. They were told to judge by them .... What is so difficult to understand about this? Tell me, what is so difficult?

Offline Nura

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2016, 11:34:27 PM »
Salam Good Logic

Are you aware that the Quran sanctions what was 'between the hands of the Children of Israel ' of Moses' books during the prophet Muhammad's ministry?

The current Bible is older than the Quran. The Council of Nicea and Bible was compiled in AD 325 that is even before Muhammad was born

I do not know Why you keep on arguing when clear verses are there that says otherwise to what you claim to be true.

Are you purposefully trying to play a game of semantics? The people of the book collectively call their books 'Bible'. What is wrong with that? The absence of the Word 'Bible' is not an issue at all, when clearly the books and their Arabic names are mentioned, Torah, Injeel, Zabur. Just because their adherents are not using these Arabic names to refer to their books does not mean that their books are not mentioned. It will not matter one bit, if in the future the Quran is given another name in another language. Why do you believe Allah is the God mentioned in Torah? The word Allah does not even appear in the Hebrew Bible. The name of God used in Torah is Yahweh. Pray do tell, then how and why do you believe it is the same God Allah? The name Yahweh is not mentioned in Quran but Allah says the God of the Torah is also Him. So, when the same Allah approves of the Torah (Bible, essentially the same book) present along with all the corruption ( additions, subtractions, introduction of unauthorized doctrines) between the hands of 7th century Arabs,  as a source of guidance, what is your problem in accepting this? Please do not purposefully conflate things and confuse people with mere games of semantics.

Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline good logic

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2016, 11:42:54 PM »
Peace Duster.

Are you saying to me GOD revealed all the bible?

Let be clear here:

GOD is consistent with "Follow/judge "by what is revealed from HIm only. NO words of men to be followed.

Are you then insisting that the bible contains the books of GOD only?
Let us have your evidence then?

Yes, GOD has revealed Torah, Injeel, Zaboor...etc. and is clearly saying to all of us to follow/judge by what GOD has sent down only.
Brother, we have to distinguish between "What GOD has revealed" and men s words:
http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/word-of-people-v-word-of-god/

GOD has left us this example:
13:17
He sends down water from the sky, causing the valleys to overflow, then the rapids produce abundant foam. Similarly, when they use fire to refine metals for their jewelry or equipment, foam is produced. God thus cites analogies for the truth and falsehood. As for the foam, it goes to waste, while that which benefits the people stays close to the ground. God thus cites the analogies.

أَنزَلَ مِنَ السَّماءِ ماءً فَسالَت أَودِيَةٌ بِقَدَرِها فَاحتَمَلَ السَّيلُ زَبَدًا رابِيًا وَمِمّا يوقِدونَ عَلَيهِ فِى النّارِ ابتِغاءَ حِليَةٍ أَو مَتٰعٍ زَبَدٌ مِثلُهُ كَذٰلِكَ يَضرِبُ اللَّهُ الحَقَّ وَالبٰطِلَ فَأَمَّا الزَّبَدُ فَيَذهَبُ جُفاءً وَأَمّا ما يَنفَعُ النّاسَ فَيَمكُثُ فِى الأَرضِ كَذٰلِكَ يَضرِبُ اللَّهُ الأَمثٰلَ

I am also amazed at your logic brother, you reject all hadith when it come to the deen, yet you say GOD is asking to follow/judge by all the "bible" even the parts that contradict GOD s system? Or have you not studied the bible?

GOD bless you.
Peace
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Duster

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2016, 11:55:36 PM »
Shalom / peace Good logic...

Now I can see what makes you so uncomfortable and I also think that this will be troubling you ....

The dilemma for you ..... You think the Bible is corrupted ...yet in the Quran, it is referring to Books that were with the People of the Book. So what Books were they referred to??? You also know I think we have Bibles older than the prophet's ministry .... another conundrum for you .....

So rather than beating about the bush ... why don't you say you can't reconcile it??

What has hadith got to do with the Bible? The Quran is a guard over the Bible and spends many many many verses discussing their contents and beliefs... The 'hadith' that many reject its authority of came after the Quran... .But the Quran confirms the Bible and it says so many times .....

So where is your logic bro????

Now stop evading the issue .... WHAT ARE THE BOOKS that Allah asks the people of the book to go and stand firm on .... It certainly ain't the Quran ...What are they??? Remember we have complete Bibles before the prophet's ministry ... so what BOOKS is the Quran referring them to??? tell me and stop evading bro!!!

Offline Nura

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2016, 12:02:04 AM »
Salam Good Logic

When did Duster or I say that we believe that there is no corruption in the Bible?

The Quran accepts that the Bible became corrupted, but that does not mean wholesale corruption. Where in the Quran does God say there was wholesale corruption? And why does Allah despite all this mention of corruption and addition to God's word by men, still ask the People of the Book to follow their 'corrupted' books? There were no original Bible or Torah with the Arabs at that time. This is a fact.  These Arab Children of Israel were reading corrupted Bible but still God claims that they should follow what is with them, why is that? Why don't you accept this? Is it because Rashad Khalifa says otherwise?

Duster and I have given clear,  explicit verses from the Quran, you do not want to accept, it is your prerogative. But, I am starting to think it is useless discussing concepts with you that are contrary to what Rashad Khalifa and his band of submitters preach and believe.

This is going to be my last post discussing this topic with you Brother, I really do not see this going anywhere.

God Bless
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline good logic

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2016, 12:02:12 AM »
Peace Nura.
1-Quote:
Are you aware that the Quran sanctions what was 'between the hands of the Children of Israel ' of Moses' books during the prophet Muhammad's ministry?

I am aware that Qoran sactions "What GOD has sent down"--GOD s words only!!! It does not sanction the falsehood part.

2-Quote:
The current Bible is older than the Quran. The Council of Nicea and Bible was compiled in AD 325 that is even before Muhammad was born
That is why it must be filtered-Truth from falsehood- Or the Counsil of Nicea was GOD inspired?

3- Quote:
I do not know Why you keep on arguing when clear verses are there that says otherwise to what you claim to be true.

All the clear verses say "What was revealed by GOD" only. GOD s words only. Have a good look/ponder on the verses again and see for yourself.
Thank you sister.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197